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A Few Quick Notes and Videos On Bismack

Rookie PF/C Bismack Biyombo has come under fire in recent weeks and has begun to be looked at by some, even supporters, as a wasted pick and a bust. Everyone knows how I feel about Biyombo, so I won't spend the time this thread deflecting every criticism thrown his way, because I do myself recognize his flaws. This will be an unbiased look at a couple of videos of him earlier in the year compared to now. Using my perspective as a basketball player, and not as a Bobcat fan, here are some pros and cons out of the 7th pick of the draft.

Star-divide

Let's start with this workout video that began circling the net a few months back.

Bismack's Private Workout Video

Notes

It's always hard to judge a player by a workout, but I will anyway. In this film, I see a mechanical robot on offense. I see nervousness all over him, especiallly the first few seconds. Think of the immense pressure he is under and look at the crowd watching him..........(awkward!!!). Either way, I see a player who doesn't look at all like he's ever played anything as a pro in his entire life. It's downright shocking that a league would be bad enough to have a spot for a player this raw to be running around. But hey, look at the NBA with Diop. Smh. Anyway, his footwork is bad, but not extremely terrible. Well, scratch that, for a big man it is. He doesn't do a good job establishing a firm base to work from. I'm actually convinced that the staff who has been developing him over the years has been teaching him to play more like a small forward than an actual big man (are we sure Tyrus Thomas hasn't been under the same tuteledge?). He doesn't put his weight and force into the areas they need to be in for him to have success establishing position on defenders. He needs to drive more from the hips than from the upper body. You're just never going to be strong enough to back anyone down with the top of your back. Not in the NBA. What I do like is the way he attacks the rim when getting an open lane. Believe it or not, a lot of big men, even in today's NBA, aren't polished dunkers and would rather lay it in than be put under the pressure of dunking. He has absolutely no consistency in his game though. That's one thing that seperates the booms from the busts entirely. If you're just going out there and playing likek a SG one day and a C the next, the results aren't going to be pretty. That's what I see from Bismack here.

Bismack's Preseason Debut vs. Atlanta Hawks

Notes

Interesting that Michael Jordan sees a lot of resemblences with Hakeem Olajuwan because I don't. I'm not sure exactly what age the Dream was when he was as raw as Biyombo, but he was definiately a lot more polished at the age Bismack is now. I don't really see him ever developing as smooth as an offensive game as Hakeem had, absolutely not. But on defense, I think he can become just as effective. Either way, it gives us a glimpse of the player Rich Cho and company are envisioning him becoming. However, here in the opening moments, I see a chicken running around with his head cut off, waiting to die (Have you ever seen that?). It's obvious here that he is extremely nervous. On offense, it's also blatantly obvious that he is completely lost and just trying to keep up with the motions. I remember feeling like that back when trying to learn the game. (When I was EIGHT!) Luckily, this is a flaw I think can be fixed with time as all most young players struggle into fitting into a system early on in their careers. At this point, it seems that he has improved on where he gets his leverage from, but it's still not the hips. It's more like he's using his legs as stilts and leaning back on defenders to create an opportunity for a back down. That won't be successful in the NBA and will probably lead to a lot of defenders simply stepping out of the way and letting him collapse and travel on his own. Biyombo does do a good job of following the ball and keeping his eye on it though, never getting lost in the possessions chasing someone around. That may be due to the zone defense more than anything, but it's also a semblance of being calm, something I've rarely seen from him. One thing that has and will continue to make him an effective shot blocker in my opinion is his excellent timing, a skill you can't teach. He does a good job of stalking the ball handlers and anticipating when they are going to go up for a shot. He also does a good job of going straight up when challenging shots, which should keep him out of foul trouble in those regards. What does get him in foul trouble though are going for rinky dink steal attempts that he has no business going after anyway. He's got to learn how to pick his spots and that pick pocketing defenders is for guards. It's not a guarantee he will. There is a possibility he will be a foul prone just based off of impatience. He is a big body and eager to help out teammates so I'm confident he'll be good at setting picks, but with a limited outside shot, all he can do is hope the ball handler drops it in themselves or he is left open for a wide open roll. His numbers on offense will seriously be hampered by this, but maybe that is something he can work on later in his career. That will be a few years down the road at best though. What's troubling though is I'm not seeing a very good rebounding effort from Biyombo, but it seems more like a mental thing than a physical. Well, of course it is I guess (Hello? 7'7 wingspan). But half of the rebounding battle is having the awareness to be in the right spot. A lot of players have this by the age Biyombo is at if they ever have it at all. We may end up having to live with Biyombo as being an average rebounder for a big man. He also continues to show signs of a small forward here, trying to jump across the lane with the ball and things he should have no business trying. Again, I think I have to reiterate I don't think he has been taught how to play like a big man all these years. He is constantly out of position on defense here, but his amazing wing span will save him 1/2 the time. That's why I don't think his shot blocking will ever fall off. Most of his accomplishments now have been based purely off the physical specimen he is. A lot of people are hating the fact that we took a project player with the 7th pick, but don't realize that we took an absolute freak of nature in the process.

Bismack vs. Dwight Howard

Notes

This is a highlight film and doesn't display all of the flaws, so I'll keep that in mind as the positives are played out. As in the opening when Bismack scores but it's on a terribly weak, Diop like basket. However, one thing that I am excited with is that Bismack isn't afraid to throw up that hook shot. So many more big men could probably excel if they added it to their arsenal, but they choose to get buckets through short jumpers and putbacks instead of actually being classic backdown players. That's why I have such a respect for Zach Randolph and always wanted him on my team. But it's good that Bismack takes that shot. Even though at this point he's doing it strictly out of nervousness, the fact that he's doing it is the first step to getting better at it. Confidence. He still roams around like a lost puppy on defense, but his arms more than makes up for it whenever he is close to the ball. Bottom line, I think it's safe to say that he will always be a presence defensively, just based off his size alone. It's also good to see Biyombo flash to the rim, catch the ball, and put it down with no issues at all. I know that should be simple, but Kwame Brown showed me different last year. For that reason, I think Biyombo can contribute points every game he plays in. Easy buckets come to everyone eventually. He still gets the cheap fouls trying to pick pocket guards which he has no business doing. I don't know how much Silas is preaching to not get knick knack fouls, but that's going to be key to keeping him on the floor. On defense, man up, Bismack is strong enough to keep Dwight out the paint. But that's not an elite skill as several big men in the NBA are big enough to stop him from getting inside if he catches the ball outside the block. Nevertheless, every team needs a big man like that, no matter if he's starting or at the end of the bench, so I think Bismack will be in the league for a good while no matter how much of a bust he is. One thing Biyombo consistently does well is run the floor. Whether it's fast break buckets or getting back on defense, he is good at getting back down court and not lagging around like a lot of big men do. I don't think we can question his hustle at all. I'm confident in saying that Bismack will be a good defensive match up for any big man in the league with the way his length affects someone the likes Howard. His footwork is still extremely poor for a big man and he needs to learn how to hang on to the ball in a crowd and go up strong at the first sign of an opening. Otherwise, he will be plagued with 3 second calls his entire career. Something I like in this video is the swag Biyombo starts to play with towards the end. In these regards, I feel like it would've been beneficial to still have Stephen Jackson around so some of that can rub off onto him. The more aggressive he is, the better it's going to be.

Overall

Overall, hey, what can I say? I like Bismack. I'm not just looking at the BPM when I say he's excelled in that area, I'm looking at games like the ones above, and this...........

I know it's easy to think because I'm a fan that I'm just a homer for Biyombo, but he has shown the potential to be an elite shot blocker, at the very least. What I'm worried about though? His ball handling. He fumbles the ball around a lot like he has that weak wrist syndrome. Like a nervousness almost. I still see that to this day and don't know if it will ever go away. His footwork is still extremely poor. His bodywork is poor entirely really. As far as playing like a big man, I think I have more skill than him. And I'm 5'7, 155 lbs. But hey, I was a fat kid when I was little, so I always learned to play like a big man. Strong from the legs, but keeping your base in your hips. Bismack still keeps his in the bottom of his legs. And his rebounding is suspect, which I attribute to lack of aggressiveness and awareness more than anything. The kid has A LOT to learn and is still extremely raw but I honestly see him getting better each game as far as learning the game goes. Even though the films above don't demonstrate significant improvement in any area (despite the numbers against Orlando), it's been fairly apparent to me he has taken baby steps. What do you guys think?

Bismack's Stats

"You're the Only One" - Black Keys

Poll
Bismack Biyombo, boom or bust?
Boom
55 votes
Bust
7 votes

62 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 688 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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The kid will be fine

He is exactly what I thought he would be. A freakish athlete with an amazing wingspan. The question is can we teach him to be more than that? I am disappointed in his rebounding. I expected him to be a bit more polished in that area, his timing has been pretty bad in the games I have been able to watch him play. I think he is always going to have to really hustle to score points. Really has no post moves to speak of, yet. Defensively, he is doing an ok job man-to-man, but his help defense has been pretty bad. Overall, I am a fan and I think that in a couple of years we will see a guy that will be much improved in all aspects of his game. I am confident he will be a beast down low for us for years to come, but it will not come over night. Patience is the name of the game with this guy, and anyone who thought otherwise was simply kidding themselves…

by kittylover on Feb 4, 2012 7:32 PM EST reply actions  

I agree.

Bismack has actually met and exceeded my expectations thus far, as far as shot blocking is concerned. I thought he would be a good paint protector, but didn’t know he had that great timing. Everything mental about him I expected. How he looks lost on defense, how he’s unsure of himself running the plays, how he gets into unnessecary foul trouble early. I hope time will correct these flaws, but as our own Tyrus Thomas shows us, time doesn’t heal everything.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 4, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

agree

the draft pool of 2011 are not so talented and I believe that we still got the wright pick at #7.

by mjfan on Feb 5, 2012 2:27 AM EST up reply actions  

If not the best player,

Then not far off.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 11:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I honestly feel like Kemba was more of a reach than BB

Time will tell, but Kawhi Leonard would have fit nicely as another defensive minded player that is showing out for the Spurs…Could have been another nice building block with stellar defense and an offensive game that is better than most anticipated…

by kittylover on Feb 4, 2012 8:20 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

At one time, I was wanting to draft Leonard

strictly because he could help fill the void left by Crash. He slipped in the weeks leading up to the draft for some reason or another, but I do think he is a solid player. So you think we reached further for Kemba than Bismack? That’s very interesting.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 4, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The "wildest dreams" scenario for Biyombo is much more impressive than Walker.

If Biyombo’s ceiling is Mutombo, Walker’s ceiling is, what? A poor man’s Tiny Archibald?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 4, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Wildest dreams scenario?

Wildest dreams scenario for Kemba is Allen Iverson 2.0. And I see Biyombo has a double double in his first start. So sad he can average only 2 points his entire career.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 4, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

So he's two for twenty two in good games.

We can count on him for a good effort 9% of the time? AWESOME!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:03 AM EST up reply actions  

2 for 22?

Exactly what part of your anatomy did you pull these numbers from?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 11:18 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

His game log.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

If you really look at his game log

And look at all the games he got decent minutes, let’s say 15 or more, then you’d be hard pressed to find a bad game in the bunch. There’s one, against Washington. The rest are very solid outings.

And he’s one for one in good starts.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 5, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

6-6-2 against Miami in 20 minutes is not very impressive. Nor is his 8-5-2 in 21 against Cleveland.

Those are, at best, average numbers. Average is not what you should expect from the #7 pick.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

No.

I expect a consistent contributor. Like MarShon Brooks (the #25 pick.) Like Norris Cole (the #28 pick.)

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Norris Cole,

who is only “contributing” because he plays with the best threesome in the NBA and has thousands of open opportunities. Marshon Brooks who is contributing less than 15 points on the terrible New Jersey Nets? And what happened to all of the other picks in between that that you failed to mention? I guess the draft wasn’t too strong after all huh?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

No, it wasn't.

Which is EXACTLY why we shouldn’t have traded our best player to move up in it.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

And instead,

we should’ve just kept Jax this year so he could lead the league in techs, be a black hole on offense, and negatively influence all of the youth on our team. Sounds like a great plan for the future!

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

We should have kept him for the purpose of fetching something decent in return.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Like what?

I think getting a similarly talented player in Maggette and moving up 12 spots in the draft is a pretty good return for Jax.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 6, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

12 spots in a draft everyone now claims is one of the worst ever.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

We should have held on to Jackson and Livingston if that was the only offer made.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

that's hindsight talking, though

unfortunately, the draft picks we got probably (read: almost definately) aren’t going to pan out but had we taken someone else, perhaps they would’ve

or maybe we could’ve packaged those picks and moved up, but we didn’t

at the time, there is no question that we made the right move – and if you’re best argument against that is “look how things turned out”, then you have to say “look how things turned out” with Stephen Jackson, too

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

But that was my argument immediately when the deal was made, too.

I’m not using hindsight. I knew that the talent level in this draft did not lend itself to a tradeup.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

So put rebuilding

on hold just to keep Jackson and Livingston around?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't see how rebuilding would be on hold.

We’d maybe be a five-win team instead of a three-win team, and we would actually have some current assets that definitely don’t mean anything to our future (unlike Augustin, or Thomas, or draft picks…)

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Because we would've

passed on a player we really wanted just to watch Jackson’s value fade even more.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

kinna been avoiding this

but…

we didn’t, and the only indication we have to suggest how he would’ve been this year is what he’s done so far this year

which means we wouldn’t be fetching much from him and thus made a good trade

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Unless, of course, he did fine here like he always has not having to play for a nutball like Scott Skiles.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure those are the 2 oldest rookies in the draft. Norris Cole is like 24 if he couldnt contribute right away nobody would have picked him

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Brooks has been 23 for about a week.

And Cole has been the same age for less than six months.

Vernon Macklin (25 since September), DeAndre Liggins (24 in March), Kyle Singler, Jon Diebler, Keith Benson, and Nolan Smith would all like to speak to you.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I love making sure the facts I cite are actually, you know, accurate.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

And what do you get for a guy who lives in Cleveland?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha rec'd

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol. He's had more than 2 good games.

Stop the hate. I’m trying to be as subjective as possible in this thread but off the wall statements like that make it hard to not take aired truthful stance which you and Focus constantly take as blind optimism.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 2:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I happen to think

That if I am rebuilding a team, I want defensive players first. Being patient for an offensive go-to guy instead of reaching for a poor shooting, small combo guard would have been my philosophy. Especially knowing that we would struggle to compete this season anyway, I think it would have been a smarter move long term…

by kittylover on Feb 4, 2012 9:30 PM EST reply actions  

Defensive minded rebuilding teams?

That’s something you don’t see often.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 4, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think of it more along the lines of

If I am a rebuilding team, I was to fill the spots first that will take the most time to develop, i.e. pg and center.

by Batumshakalaka on Feb 14, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be successful

It’s kind of a football philosophy. Get guys that play D and are more than willing to do the dirty things. I’m not saying that you don’t need an offensive stud to really be successful, but I think that building a supporting cast is underrated and should be more of a priority when starting from scratch as we are doing…Take OKC as an example. Without Durant what are they? An excellent defensive team that does all of the little things needed to win. Add a go-to scorer and you have a championship contender….

by kittylover on Feb 4, 2012 11:43 PM EST reply actions  

Absolutely,

Something I was trying to explain to the dynamic duo earlier. It’s ridiculous to think we were going to get a star in this draft to build the team around. Kemba still has star potential because of his name and sometimes flashy play, but everyone from this draft was a role player at best in the NBA, whether they are starting or not. Brooks is in Jersey to compliment Lopez and Williams. Leonard is in San Antonio to compliment their core of aging stars, not build around him. Kemba and Bismack are here to compliment a player that hasnt even been drafted yet. Other than Irving, I don’t see anyone capable of taking that next step. It’s crazy for people to now think we missed out on a great player in the draft, edpeviay when everyone agreed before the draft this was one of the weakest in history.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 11:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I haven't used the word "great" once.

But “productive” or “steady” sure might be nice.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Steady and productive?

Bismack has been steady (which is consistent right) and Kemba has been productive (putting up points right?).

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 1:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Steady? Biyombo's averaging 2-4-1.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he means with consistent minutes.

He can easily be a piece on a championship team.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 5, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

If I can expect the same thing

Out of Biyombo every time he gets more than 5 minutes on the court, yes, that’s consistency.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

In the games where he has gotten 6+ minutes (that's exactly TWO of them, by the way)...

Biyombo has averaged 4-4-2. Is that extra block and point supposed to impress me?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Failing to impress someone

who feels a team can build around Okafor really means nothing to me. I guarantee you our front office and others around the league are taking notice of Biyombo’s improvements.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

So YOU are impressed by 4-4-2?

Cool. Somebody should definitely let you run a team.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

From a raw player in limited minutes

who is constantly at the top of the league in BPM, absolutely.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Very impressive.

Even better than the great Okafor.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

great post

I think the one thing that I was hoping to translate immediately and has is the shot blocking ability.

Other than just continuing to develop at the offensive end – the things I’m seeing from Biz in terms of improving are his hands – he’s improved on catching the ball a bit better in traffic but I don’t feel like he “squeezes” the ball per se on his rebounds enough and leads to some unnecessary loose balls. And even with his shot blocking ability if he just continues to work on his anticipation and not go for every pump fake and learn to stay on the ground and then recover for the block – that would be huge.

by JPCats785 on Feb 5, 2012 12:28 AM EST reply actions  

Indeed my friend.

Squeezing the ball is going to be big. That’s why I say he has the loose wrist syndrome. Doesn’t appear to be putting the pressure on the ball to make it hard for defenders to knock it away. I’ll give him time to work on the going at shot fakes. That’s usually something a raw prospect has to be reminded of every game in the beginning.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 11:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

How to defense pick&roll, they dont know

did Silas teach them how to stop pick roll? i doubt it
Grotat made 4 pick roll shots , got 8 pts
he only got 10 or 12 Pts in the whole game

by ironar on Feb 5, 2012 11:28 AM EST reply actions  

Indeed.

It seems like Bismack is still lacking the pure fundamentals of the pick and roll, but offensively and defensively. These are little things that will make him a much better player and shouldn’t be very hard to learn. Imagine a sound defensive player on top of what we already have in him. I really don’t think a DPOY award is out the question for him. Other than a few big name players, I can’t see too many people being chosen over him in the coming years. He is already basically the player Thabeet was supposed to be.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 11:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

agree

he has already been better than Thabeet

I am a rockets fan too

by ironar on Feb 5, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh. Lol, sorry for taking a shot

At Thabeet like that. But it just makes me wonder why some guys are able to take steps and some aren’t. I was just using Hasheem as an example because he is a player I expected a lot from coming out of the draft but hasn’t been able to even be on the court consistently. I honestly don’t know what keeps him on the bench so much. Maybe a Rockets fan like yourself can provide some insight.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 12:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

His numbers are virtually IDENTICAL to Thabeet as a rookie!

Thabeet: 13 MPG, 3 PPG, 4 RPG, 1 BPG, 1 TO/gm., 2 PF/gm.
Biyombo: 14 MPG, 3 PPG, 4 RPG, 1 BPG, 1 TO/gm., 2 PF/gm.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at the game log and tell me Biyombo has'nt played better.

11, 12, and 2 as a starter.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 5, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

You must not know how averages work.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I was kind of joking considering he's started one game.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

so what is your conclusion based off those statistics? that Biyombo is going to be Thabeet?

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 8:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Lmao.

I promise you I was going to type something almost just like that. For him to not expect a real conclusion, but more jibber jabber to argue with.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

its just hilarious because he compares raw stats of Biyombo and Thabeet and implies Biyombo is undoubtedly doomed to a similar career.

Yet if we present the raw stats of Cam Newton’s rookie season and all other HOF quarterback’s rookie season, something tells me I doubt he would as quickly conclude that Cam Newton is clearlydestined to become the greatest quarterback of all time.

a tad hypocritical right?

too easy zzzzz

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Too easy.

Way too easy.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Newton might well be the greatest FANTASY quarterback of all time with these teammates and this system.

But Timmy Chang isn’t revered as one of college football’s all-time greats for a reason.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

so what was the point of comparing Thabeet and Biyombos statistics? you never actually made one. and apparently (and predictably) now statistics are meaningless when it has to do with Newton being great. what a surprise

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you mean?

I just said he could be one of the great fantasy quarterbacks ever. That should validate everybody who thought he was so great this year regardless of the team’s 6-10 record with him as the starter.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

so statistics only matter when youre trying to make retarded meaningless comparisons.

okay

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

They certainly have less value when the situations aren't comparable at all.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Please explain how the relevance of statistically comparing Thabeet and Biyombo is stronger than Cam and any other QB in NFL history

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

  • Thabeet and Biyombo are role players who have similar sizes and skillsets who also have extraordinarily similar statistics.
  • Newton’s stats are certainly impressive. But he did not win games. He did not avoid back-breaking turnovers to carry his team to victories as plenty of other rookie QBs have been able to do, from Dalton to Flacco to Roethlisberger. In the end, his numbers were just a lot of noise. As such, while anybody can argue his abilities as a successful fantasy quarterback in analyzing the raw statistics alone (ignoring, of course, rate stats like completion percentage and QB rating which take into account the weaknesses of his game), it is difficult to suggest that he will be a wildly successful NFL quarterback with regard to leading his team to victories based on any concrete evidence shown in his time as a professional.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Counter to that second point

If you want to look at rate stats like QB rating, he betters playoff QBs Tim Tebow, TJ Yates, Joe Flacco, and Andy Dalton and has a higher completion percentage than all those save for TJ Yates.

His 84.5 passer rating would put him T-27 all time among QBs over their careers. Above names like Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, John Elway, and Dan Fouts.

And if we want to take a look at QB ratings for other notable rookie QBs:
Matthew Stafford: 61.0
Eli Manning: 55.4
Peyton Manning: 71.0
Alex Smith: 40.8
Joe Flacco: 80.3
Sam Bradford: 76.5
Matt Ryan: 87.7
Andy Dalton: 80.4

We see that Cam is among the top of the class. Factor in the outstanding raw numbers, and the fact that he was considered to be a huge risk and extremely raw QB, it’s easy to see why the people are so high on him. Especially when you add in the fact that he led the entire NFL in yards per carry while finishing second in rushing touchdowns.

Football Outsiders came to the conclusion (using advanced statistics) that the best comparison for Newton at this point is a hybrid between Peyton Manning and Herschel Walker.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 2:07 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s easy to put up good numbers when you’re surrounded by more skill position talent than anybody in football with no tape on you or the system you are placed in, which is also specifically designed around your skills and abilities, even at the expense of the statistics of your teammates (Stewart and Williams, both top-10 NFL RBs, averaged just 18.6 carries combined despite averaging 5.4 yards a carry! Michael Turner averaged 18.8 alone despite being 900 years old, and Marshawn Lynch got 19.0 despite a YPA of only 4.2, over 20% lower!)

But none of that changes the fact that his team was not successful, and it was often not successful because of his errors. In each of the games where he threw 3+ INTs, we lost despite being tied (@ATL, DET) or within a score (GB) in the fourth quarter. Funny, but three more wins is a team that would have played with more momentum down the stretch and certainly been in the playoff discussion.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 2:34 AM EST up reply actions  

so youre willing to type out a 1000 word essay trying to deflect Cam’s statistical dominance and saying how wrong and stupid it is to look at raw stats only and not situations.

but a simple 3/3/1.5 comparison of Bismacks first 20 career games and Thabeets entire rookie season is relevant analysis for the future?

lol

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't count well, huh?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

aww he can’t defend his hypocrisy. :(

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

If it was so easy to do without tape on him

Why has no one ever performed that well before? And do most teams not build an offense to suit their QBs strengths?

The fact that the offense was built around a rookie’s skills and abilities and finished top 5 in the NFL should be impressive enough.

And you can beat your point to death about those 3 games, but like you said in the Biyombo vs. Thabeet debate, those 3 games have been included in what many are calling they best season ever by a rookie QB. Using 18.75% of a player’s games to discount his entire body of work is rather nit picky, no?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely not.

Not when other, similarly-experienced and less physically gifted players at the same position have been able to avoid such crucial errors and he has not.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay then

I see how this is.

When you go to Panther games and Newton succeeds do you hang your head in sorrow?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Certainly not.

But given we went 3-5 at home this year and I’m a fan of the team rather than the player…I was hanging my head more often than not.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

if you're a fan of the team and not the player

then why arent you getting of Newton’s sack and throwing it hard at the Defense and Special teams lack of playmaking? Those two aspects of the team were appalling and cost us 3-5 wins alone in horrid play.

The offense failed a few times to stay in the lead, but the Defense alone failed to do much of anything all year.

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The defense was good enough to give the team fourth quarter leads in, what, seven of the ten losses?

Please. The offense—and particularly Newton—was a trainwreck after halftime, particularly while trying to hold a lead.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The defense was bottom 6 in both points and yards

And dead last according to metrics. There’s no arguing that. The defense was absolutely dreadful.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 8, 2012 1:44 AM EST up reply actions  

wait what?

the defense gives the team a lead? How many points did the defense score for the Panthers this year? If what I’m reading is correct, the defense was only responsible for 6 pts on the board. Meaning that the Offense carried the entire load.

Here you go again with illogical defending of the most obvious problem with the Panthers team, their defense.

by jovox on Feb 9, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That they're virtually the same player in terms of NBA production as rookies at a similar experience level.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

So Thabeet hasn't turned out very well, yet people are SURE Biyombo will.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

But if I make a list of HOF QBs and their rookie stats and compare it to Cam, they are all worse. So by your own logic I should probably expect Cam to be the GOAT. theres no way around it, youre a giant hypocrite

congrats

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

As a FANTASY quarterback...

Yes, you’re absolutely justified in that position. I don’t see what’s hypocritical about that at all. But that’s the difference between being an NFL QB and almost any other position in professional sports. There is a huge difference between statistical production and producing wins. Truly great ones can do both. See: Rodgers, Aaron or Brees, Drew.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

And some are great

But don’t always have the help they need. He had a phenomenal rookie year. The only thing he really could have done better was cut down on the turnovers (Even though Eli Manning only had one fewer interception).

Tim Tebow, Alex Smith, and Andy Dalton made the playoffs. Michael Vick, Philip Rivers, and Jay Cutler did not. Which set of three would you rather have with all else being equal?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Interesting question.

First, I would put Vick last on the list, even behind Tebow. Tebow has room to grow, but Vick is who he is after all these years: a running back masquerading as a QB.

Tebow’s mechanics are ugly and his awareness of the passing game is poor, but he has that special quality to turn it on when the game is on the line, much like Jake Delhomme did for my Panthers. Despite a poor group of receivers and an offense that was designed to be run-heavy, he had a season that was in the top 11 all-time this year in both game-winning drives and fourth-quarter comebacks. Did his defense put him in position to win those games? Absolutely! But they certainly weren’t responsible for driving the team down the field and putting the winning points on the board.

Cutler’s probably fourth. I appreciate his arm and his toughness, but despite the fact that he’s been on three teams and played for ten years, he has quarterbacked just ONE team to a winning-record, last year’s Bears. At some point, that’s not a coincidence.

I’d take Dalton next, for his winning pedigree not only with Cincy this year (finishing fourth in the NFL this year in fourth-quarter comebacks with four, right behind Tebow), but with TCU. He went 42-8 there (including 34-3 (!!!) after his freshman year), and, again, that doesn’t happen by accident, no matter who you’re playing against or what system you’re running.

I would obviously take Rivers over Smith, though Rivers’ consistency concerns me. Above all, to me, a QB must be reliable, but Rivers has shown the ability in ’06 and ’09 to top any year Smith ever has, both statistically and from a team perspective.

So that’s a hard decision, but I think I’d go with the latter three because of the gap between Rivers and Smith. But if it’s Tebow and Dalton going forward or Cutler and Vick, I’ll take the young’uns every time.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

And that is why people believe in Newton

You picked the second group of three (the one that did not make the playoffs this year) over the first group (the group that did make the playoffs).

The playoffs are not comprised of the teams with the top 12 QBs. Some average ones will make it, and some good ones will miss it. Football is the ultimate team game. No one player can do it all, even at the QB position (unless your name is Peyton Manning).

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 2:12 AM EST up reply actions  

But one cannot take a one-year snapshot.

If we were talking about this year’s performance alone, I would easily take the first group, and I would take any of the six over Newton, because they have all shown the ability to lead teams in the NFL to the playoffs as starting QBs, the most impactful position in pro sports.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 2:22 AM EST up reply actions  

The "great ones" have all been in the league

5+ years.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

OK, fine...

So stop the fawning idolatry of Newton.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

You're going to have to tell the entire world to stop it.

Say it with me, Rookie of the Year!!!

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe I have been hammering that drum.

As noted, Green and Dalton were robbed. Fantasy numbers mean nothing.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

man

you have so much pride with your backwards reasoning and logic that you fail to even see that we’d not hate on you if you did change your ways. How can you not support someone that has a tremendously positive effect on a team you supposedly “root for.” Saying Cam/The Panthers robbed Green/Dalton proves this 10 fold.

This might be why most people do not take you seriously.

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Its the exact reason.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This

If you’re a Panther fan, why are you one of the few not on the Cam bandwagon when it looks like he’s the future of the franchise.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Because the fact that somebody "looks like" something has never been enough for me.

And after a 6-10 year where his errors led directly to many of our losses, that doesn’t “look like” anything positive to me.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

3

You bring up 3 losses. The team lost 10.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

All of which he started and had an opportunity to win.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Do name me the games where we lost and he had no fault.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

He never had "no fault"

But he played well against:

Arizona
Chicago
Saints pt. 1
Vikings

And outside of his picks, he played phenomenally against the Packers. And he was a couple of flukey interceptions away from a solid game in Atlanta.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

We lost the Arizona game by seven points. Points off of Cam Newton turnovers? Seven.

We lost the Chicago game by five points. Points off of Cam Newton turnovers? Seven.

We lost the New Orleans game by three points. Points off of Cam Newton turnovers? Seven.

Oh, and after we took a 21-14 lead against Minnesota, here’s the drive recaps for Carolina:

Three-and-out, eight yards, leading to Minnesota TD. 21-21.
Three-and-out, nine yards.
After an exchange of punts…
Three-and-out, eight yards, leading to Minnesota FG.
21-24.
After that came the drive which led to the missed Mare FG, on which 44 of the 57 total yards gained were on a phenomenal play on a jump ball by LaFell.

Newton’s stats from the Panthers’ final score on, including the ball he allowed LaFell to make the play on:
8-13, 80 yards, 9 rushing yards, 8 yards lost on 1 sack. Mediocre in holding a lead, even as the defense was fighting their hardest.

And P.S.: Steve DeBerg had a Hall of Fame career outside of his picks. But they count, just like Newton’s “flukey” (sic) garbage-time TDs in games that were over by the end of the third quarter.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Because teams always lose when their QB has one turnover

That’s perfectly normal.

It’s quite clear that you have your head too far up your rear to admit that you called that one wrong, so I give up on this topic.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 8, 2012 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Please give it up with the Cam talk.

Good teams can afford one turnover.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 8, 2012 8:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Because he didn't have as positive an effect as multiple less-heralded QBs.

See Dalton and Green. They increased their team’s wins by five and got to the playoffs.

See Tim Tebow. He did exactly the same.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Please note:

The Broncos faced 2 playoff teams with Tebow under center and lost both.

Also note: Only one of the Bengals 9 wins came against a team with a winning record.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Newton only beat one playoff team...

And that team was using its third-string QB. So I’m not sure how his performance should impress me any more.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

That same team led by a third string QB

Beat your beloved Andy Dalton-led Bengals twice.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, so it's more impressive that a fifth-string QB is better than Newton by extention, too?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right.

I said string when I should have said round. Apologies.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

how do those straws feel?

I mean the ones that you’re grasping at.

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

If Dalton>Newton and Yates>Dalton...

Well, let me just skip the math and say it doesn’t make Newton look very good.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

But the problem with you saying Dalton>Newton

is that you have been proven wrong by the people that actually matter, the ones that voted for Cam as OROY.

by jovox on Feb 9, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Because he had fantastic fantasy numbers.

How’d that work for them in the W-L column?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 12, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

he had stats, offensive stats

thats what ROY is and should be based on.

BTW, I wonder if your boy Dalton enjoyed watching the game from his couch as much as Cam did because his few extra wins really got him to the Superb Owl.

by jovox on Feb 14, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Dmorey knows why lol

Rockets wanna biyombo, i began to watch his video in Spain.
i thought we can get him at 8 picks for sure.
but bobcats came out, got biyombo at 7,

But I still think Biyombo is a Rockets Player, Sucks

forget Thabeet, no hope

by ironar on Feb 5, 2012 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

Lol.

I think Morey is actually one of the more competent GMs in the league and you guys would have a title by now had Yao and McGrady just been able to stay healthy. Either way, it’s crazy hearing another teams fan say they want Biyombo. I’m glad some people outside of the fan base and organization recognize his potential.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 12:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

all i can say is

i dont understand how some people can really enjoy taking up the role as “the pessimistic guy” as a so-called “fan” of something that is literally 100% meaningless entertainment in the grand scheme of our lives. I guess people find enjoyment in different things but I really feel bad for people who enjoy the role of trying to bring other fans down. If I ever get to that point please inform me and I will quit watching sports immediately. Until then, 100% optimism is the only way I can fathom enjoying sports.

So with that said, I eagerly look forward to Bismack becoming the career double double 3blk perennial DPOY candidate he is capable of becoming. Gonna be a fun ride!

by CatNation on Feb 5, 2012 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

It's interesting with MP though.

He will just most of the time just join whatever side is losing just to try to make them a winner. For example, take a few weeks ago, he was trashing Kemba heavily after a bad game. Nothing unusual right? But then some of Kembas biggest supporters began agreeing with him, questioning the selection. What happened after that? MP eased up on Kemba and began disagreeing with people who said Kemba was worthless. He is just the type to want to disagree with everyone if possible and prove his point to be superior above all. Try it one day. Blatantly agree with something he is stating, even if you don’t agree, and watch as he behind to criticize you for your logic and reasoning even if you agree. As for Focus, he really just believes he knows everything. There is no changing people like that. Not over the Internet at least. Either way, I’m glad Biz made the most of his opportunity as a starter last night and hope that Silas doesn’t make the mistake of sending him back to the bench.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 12:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The best sign to me was that he played huge minutes without any foul trouble. I think a lot of people have preconceived notions that a player like him can’t play big minutes because he’ll foul out every time. I think Biz is intelligent enough to realize that he can play a bit calmer when he’s gonna get big minutes, whereas when he knew he was only gonna get 10 minutes theres no repercussions to getting a few quick fouls.

There will probably be a few games when he gets 2 early ones and has to come out but I don’t think it will be that big of a problem at all. He’s a quick study

by CatNation on Feb 5, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Preconceived notions are all

Any Bismack haters have to use. He will always be in foul trouble, he will always only be good for 2ppg, he will never get better, blah blah blah. Gets super old. I don’t ask people to forget about their concerns and just see the positives regarding him, but what I do is ask that if you can recognize the bust potential so well, then at least try to envision the man becoming a good player. Games like last nights are evidence I use to say he has that potential, but even solid outings like that get swept under the rug because people just choose to believe only his good games are flukes for whatever reason.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 1:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I have the same suspicions my friend.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 1:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yes, my "preconcieved notions" are what's making his 3-4-1 line look bad from a #7 pick.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

What about these picks in front of him:

Vesely: 3-3-0
Kanter: 5-5-0

Your thoughts on those?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 5, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Vesely wasn't a very good pick, either.

Kanter is simply buried behind better players, and still putting up better numbers than Biyombo.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Does Kanter block shots?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

at an average rate

1.2 per 36

13.1 points, 12.5 rebounds, 1.2 blocks per 36

needs to work on using his body and his mechanics but has soft hands

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

And playing time has nothing to do with that?

That doesn’t factor in to the equation at all?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 1:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Playing time is determined by production and ability.

The fact that he has been behind Diop, Mullens, and DJ White kind of suggests there’s a problem there.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

And it's painfully obvious

He is better than Diop so what’s your point?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 6:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Oh, please.

I have been consistent on Walker from day one. He was a bad pick. He has no NBA position, and he is blocked by a superior player who has a similar game to him.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Pay attention fellas as I demonstrate my theory.

You’re absolutely right Procton. Walker has been epically bad. Man, is there anything he can do good? He’s short, weak, a bad shooter, a bad passer, and just an overall bad player. There were plenty of other players available with that pick that could come in and contribute a helluva lot more than what Kemba is giving us.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 1:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Nope. That's pretty spot on.

Perhaps a bit extreme, but the ideas are in the right direction.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Lmao.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 6:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

he's a better shooter

than he has shown

and he’s not an overall bad player, but definately not a player that should be a “franchise savior” as he’s been called

everything else you said is accurate

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Third or possibly second option on a championship team.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

sooo

not a franchise savior

and not our first option if we want to contend

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely not.

I don’t know if there were any saviors in this draft though Irving reminds me of a younger, potential to be better, Chris Paul. I do think Kemba can still be the face of the franchise. Not because he would be our best or someone we actually build around, but simply because he is a flashy player that should be able to maintain a starting spot and decent numbers.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 7:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

only his rebounding and ppg are decent

but those points come at a considerable cost in efficiency

i hope he can improve, but his college numbers weren’t overwhelmingly better

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That sounds like the face of a franchise like Golden State.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

in seriousness though

i’d trade kemba for curry in a second

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Stephen "Glass Ankles" Curry? Dude went to my high school and I still believe he is overrated.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right.

And Monta Ellis has remained in high demand his entire career. I’d be more than happy if Walker is ever able to put up the numbers Ellis is.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Me too.

A poor man’s Monta Ellis ain’t much to write home about, though.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd beg to differ.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

How far has he gotten their team as their franchise player?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol.

But who has annointed Kemba a savior here? That’s the difference. Monta is a complimentary player on a title team and that’s the exact thing thats expected of Kemba here.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The feeling of the community since the draft (and PARTICULARLY after the first game)...

was that Walker would be the key piece for the team long-term.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

He's cheaper.

I just don’t want to give DJ $6-8 million when I don’t see him ever being that much better than Kemba.

If you disagree with my opinion, I will take it personal and hate you forever.

by Panthers FTW on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope.

You’re just making up crap. If someone really felt Kemba was good enough to build around, don’t you feel they would say the team would be pretty good? Apparently you don’t know the difference between a building block and a franchise player.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently you are very good at tuning out reality.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently you can't find evidence to back yourself up.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

dude seriously?

want me to go troll some previous user posts again?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Because I can vouch for EVERYONE on the site and safely say that no one said that Kemba was on the level of Lebron, Durant, or CP3, would win an MVP trophy, would get a max contract or would lead the team to a winning record this year, things that truly define a superstar. Please point out these posts. I’m begging you. Finding one post where someone said someone “hoped he would be a savior” isn’t evidence of what y’all are claiming. Not at all. Revisit every draft thread, every game thread, everything that you can to pull out these quotes.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I know for a fact

some people were saying he’d be an All-Star player – I never said anyone said he’d be one of those guys, but someone did say “franchise savior”, and definately people have said “someone to build around”

but since you challenged me, prepare to be bombarded by dozens of threads proving my point – except i’m not gonna post them here all at once, i’m going to randomely post them as responses to your posts in every single thread i can find, cuz if i’m gonna troll, i’m gonna do it right

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it still that much of a stretch

To suggest he may be an all star player one day? How can you sit there and say you see all star potential in Jimmer Fredette and not Kemba?

And I await these responses. Just be sure they are valid. Suggesting Kemba can be an all star one day, a building block, or anything else hasnt been proven otherwise yet.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 6:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

maybe he will be

i would hope so, he was a 9th pick

do you think he will be?

do you agree that he’s going to have to adjust his game to do so?

it isn’t far fetched to think he’ll be an all-star, but it is far fetched to think he’ll be an all-star with his current skillset and playstyle, as a 6’1" combo guard

i hope he changes his game and becomes the point guard his physical stature suggest he should be in the NBA – he’s not allen iverson (just to use an example of a slight shooting guard who had success in the NBA)

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

With everything except for suggesting the 9th pick in any draft is a disappointment if they don’t make the all star game.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 7:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And not a guy we should want to dump DJ Augustin for.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Walker wasn't a very accurate shooter in college, either.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Just like Thabeet would surely become after putting up IDENTICAL numbers as a rookie.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 5, 2012 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

How many double doubles did Thabeet have as a rookie?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 1:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

how many has he had in 3 years now? lol

by CatNation on Feb 5, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol. Seriously, how many?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 2:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

0?

But these are comparable players?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 5, 2012 11:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Apparently

Even though Biyombo has accomplished something twice that Thabeet hasn’t been able to do in 2+ seasons.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 5, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Crazy.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Chris Duhon has more triple-doubles than Gerald Wallace has ever accomplished.

Does that make Duhon a better player?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally irrelevant.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Just as relevant as your Biyombo-Thabeet denials.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

What exactly did I deny?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That they're comparable, because Biyombo has gotten a double-double.
0?

But these are comparable players?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So you can use stats to back up

Your argument but I can’t? And you calling then comparable is a complete matter of opinion based on stats. We may as well pull out every rookie to ever have those numbers, regardless of position, and say they are comparable players.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

But it's not "every other rookie."

It’s two rookies with similar body types and skillsets.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

So they are doomed to be the same player.

Ok.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Come May 1 tell me Biyombo is the same as Thabeet.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Come May 1, we should all hope Biyombo has produced more than Thabeet did as a rookie.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

You're comparing a PG to a SF

C’mon now, you’re better than that.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 6, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol. He's really not.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

the positions don't matter in the argument he's making

he’s saying that feats like double doubles and triple doubles don’t necessarily prove that any single player is better than any other single player

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It'd make more sense to use similar players in that case

The original point being made was that Biz has shown flashes of talent with his two double doubles. Something Thabeet never did. Biyombo was being likened to Thabeet because of similar rookie statlines. The argument was that while they may be similar now, Biyombo has shown the ability to do something Thabeet never did while playing the same position and being comparable players.

I know double doubles aren’t an end all be all measure of ability. But if you have to choose between two simlilar players, one who has the ability to record double double numbers and one who does not, who would you be more inclined to go with?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 6, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

devil's advocate

i think by choosing two totally different types of players, one that is a footnote in nba history at best and the other who is a consistent triple double threat yet never having one, helps drive his point home more

basically, one had no business ever getting a triple double and one has no business ever not having gotten one

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

What I'm trying to say

If trying to provide evidence that a double double is not indicative of player success, a better way of proving that point would be providing an example along the lines of PG#1 is the better player, even though PG#2 has logged more double doubles.

To me, that would be a much better way of countering my argument than saying something along the lines of “Do you think Marcus Camby is a better player than Michael Jordan because he has 5 times as many double doubles?”

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

but he could've just as easily

compared players at the same position to do the same thing, you’re arguing semantics at this point

regardless of how the point was made, the point still remains that the amount of double or triple doubles a player gets isn’t necessarily indicative of that player being better than any other particular player

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Precisely my point.

They are a nice record of a good game, but would we really prefer a 10-10 night from our starting center over a 25-9 night or a 6-18 night just because of the double-double?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I know that to be true

I said that. I just used it as something Biz has shown the ability to do, while Thabeet never did.

And when neither has yet shown the ability to contribute a huge amount in either category, I’d take the one who has shown more ability to contribute multiple things in the same game.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Like Chris Duhon has shown the ability relative to Gerald Wallace.

Yeah, we got it.

Or James Posey, if the positional difference bothers you so much.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

So would it not be fair for me

To pull out Kobes rookie numbers and compare them to Marshom Brooks and holler Brooks is better?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

If you based your argument on the number of double-doubles they had, absolutely not.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is that?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Because it's arbitrary and largely irrelevant.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Given that Thabeet pulled off games of 10-9, 8-10, and 10-7 as a rookie...

I’d say that the validity of your magical double-double argument is tenuous at best. And Thabeet’s non-double-double games were included in his rookie average, just as Biyombo’s double-doubles are included in his. It just means that Thabeet more regularly avoided the statistical black hole games Biyombo has put up on more than one occasion.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Those are three games out of 45 that he played double digit minutes

And in those three games he played more minutes than Biz has gotten in any game except this past one.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Statistical black hole?

What game was this?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

1-7 in 24 minutes against Washington?

1-0 in 14 against LA?
0-2 in 13 against ATL?
0-2 in 12 against DET?
0-3 in 11 against NY?

Sorry, but those games are not helping his supposed statistical dominance.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

You measure players by stat books.

I don’t. I’ll just leave it at that.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm envisioning your ideal player:

They put up a 0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0 line in 20 minutes every night, but their grim visage is such that the other team is rendered completely helpless. Wait, found her!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm envisioning you

Looking at Marshon Brooks stats, then Ray Allen’s, then determining Brooks is the better player. Either way, I’m done responding to your nonsense.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 7:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

If you're talking about as rookies...

Brooks has certainly been better than Allen was. But over the course of their careers, Allen has had more than enough opportunity over his 14+ years to prove he’s a superior player.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So Bismack having

More double doubles in half of a lockout season compared to Thabeet who has 0 in 3 years is totally irrelevant? Ok. Whatever you say Mikey.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

in the grand scheme of things

it kinna is… you’re smart enough to come up with a better argument as to why Biyombo is better than Thabeet, since he CLEARLY is

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Isn't who better than who all opinionated in the end anyway?

I don’t need to justify anything I say since they are CLEARLY the same player.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't use stats to determine whose better

I use something called the eye test. Stats get you believing crazy things like points on bad teams are just as valuable as points on good teams. So I’m not really too interested in debating numbers with you guys when it comes to talking about superior players. Just pointed out a fact that supports my case when arguing in your world of numbers.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Double-doubles aren't real facts.

They’re an arbitrary landmark. Again, would you really prefer a 10-10 game to a 25-8 or a 6-18?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

For someone who constantly

cries over how much Okafor was good for a double double and that production, I am shocked that you would say such a thing.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Except Okafor was never averaging just 10-10.

But the fact is that his status as one of the only players in the NBA who has averaged a career double-double is impressive in and of itself. Not more or less impressive than any other player, but impressive.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

when have i said biz was better than thabeet

i actually said the opposite

my point was, using an arbitrary number like double double amounts isn’t a good way to argue that someone is better, in fact, your eye test argument is even better than that, and it’s subjective!

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said you said that.

And if you have Rockets fans on here telling you how garbage Thabeet is compared to Biyombo, that should tell you something. My point is that using every little statistic you can come up with to talk about who the better player is is subjective as well.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

it's not subjective though

when there are more statistics to prove my point than otherwise

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It's subjective to think numbers are an

Indication of what a players entire career will be like.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

how can anything that is backed up by

statistics be subjective? he’s played the same way for four years now, how is that NOT a good indication of what a players entire career will be like?

do you think matt carroll is suddenly gonna turn into lebron james tommorrow? why not? thinking otherwise, according to you, is totally subjective

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Like I said,

I really don’t care what you think. Walker is a Bobcat, so I will watch him and monitor his development and decide for myself whether he is a bust or not. 20 games in just isn’t enough for me. Nor am I going to say he can’t change until I see a point where he is surrounded by decent scoring options and just fails to get them the ball.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 6:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

for someone who doesn't care what i think

you sure do reply to a lot of my posts

however, you’re right in regards to giving him more time – he needs time to prove that he is or isn’t going to be a bust

but you can’t blame me for not simply hoping he won’t be a bust when the evidence points to the contrary

please, kemba walker, prove my preconceived, albeit factually based, notions about your wrong!

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Mine tooz!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

In case you didn't realize,

I created this post. Out of trying to be respectful to you commenting on my thread, I chose to reply. Trust me though, I’m done talking about it with you.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 7:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Waah...

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Augustin took the same scoring options and did a far better job.

Further, Reggie Williams has done better in the three games since he returned than Walker has, and he’s certainly not a PG by any stretch of the imagination. That ain’t a coincidence, bro.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Is adam's name Michael, too?

Otherwise, I’m not sure why this would be a response to his commentary.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't worry about responses to commentary if they're not to you.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

It was certainly confusing, though.

You referred to a “Mikey.” As far as I know, I’m the only one of those around.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

i believe he was referring to you

whereas i was intending to reply to a seperate post he made

or maybe he was trying to insenuate that i was being you, i don’t know

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I was just trying to figure it out.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

also Thabeet has never been a poor per-minute player. His faults were in his attitude, work ethic and his ability to play long stretches of NBA minutes with his bodytype and conditioning being bad. He was a player who actually had a problem with fouls and lacked the intelligence to fix that. And he was a 3 year college player to boot. I can’t think of anyone less comparable to Bismack in terms of their flaws. He is 7’3 though, can’t teach that.

by CatNation on Feb 5, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

what will happen if the haters are wrong about the picks and that they are good players?

just wish they could stop the whining.

The ball is round so is the rim and the world. anything can happen if you play hard.

by tanduay5years on Feb 5, 2012 7:45 PM EST reply actions  

theyll find something else to whine about

by CatNation on Feb 5, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It works both ways, though

I’m sure they are saying, “What will happen if the lovers are wrong about the picks and they end up being bad players?”

It’s two different opinions.

by Tim Rudisill on Feb 6, 2012 4:18 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

theres always new prospects :D

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 8:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it's the simple though my friend.

On one half is the side that HOPES he turns into a great player and they use the good signs he has shown on the court as evidence to keep believing he won’t turn into a bust. The other side has already labeled him a bust, pointing to his production compared to other rookies, while ignoring the fact that everyone on the other side said before the season started that it would take time for him to be on the same level as the more experienced rookies, but the reward from waiting could be much greater than going for the most productive player. I haven’t seen anyone yet say that Biyombo is guaranteed to be great but I’ve seen the other two already label him as a bust based on his contributions, even though we ALL knew it would take time. I will say though that I didn’t expect him to have multiple double doubles this early into his career.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

that's not entirely fair

i’m calling Kemba a bust because I can see it in his game that, regardless of the numbers he puts up, he can’t play PG in the NBA, which is what we drafted him to do

i won’t call Biz a bust, because he needs time to develop… i will say though that i don’t agree with using the 7th pick on a player who clearly needed time to develop before he was drafted, even though we had no idea who he was

biz has shown improvement already from game to game, especially in his court awareness, which is a sign of developing basketball IQ…. Kemba… not so much

I’ll say that Kemba has a 90% chance of being a bust in that he’ll never amount to a consistent starting PG in the NBA and certainly won’t be the centerpiece of this franchise, as many have and still bill him to be

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

you realize PG assist numbers have literally 0 correlation to winning titles right?

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

plenty of teams have won championships with point guards who look to score before pass

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

But none that have a predeliction to avoiding passing.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

24 assists to 6 turnovers in his last 4 games. what a scrub!

oh wait im assuming you think the games where he started/played heavy min at SG should be reflected in his PG ability mirite? trolololo

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Trololololol.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Trolololol.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

While taking the most shots on the team at a low completion percentage in half of them, three total blowouts?

Sorry, but he’s been the starter and played heavy minutes as the only healthy point guard for the past SIX games, over which he’s averaged fewer than 5 APG.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And over which he's played

with most of the other weapons on offense in dress suits on the bench.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Be prepared to discuss how important that 1 assist is.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

Throwing all biases aside, one extra assist (or rebound or bucket or block or anything) isn’t making the difference between a blowout loss and a win right now.

6 feet of Smooth

by Bring Back Primoz on Feb 6, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

hard to turn it over

when you’re chucking the ball up the second you touch the ball

in seriousness, though, i don’t think anyone is suggesting that DJ Augustin is our franchise point guard, but simply that Kemba is not

statistically, DJ is a better option at point guard, which is saying a lot about Kemba

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

ac is right above me...

Augustin turns it over at a higher rate than Matt Carroll, too, but I haven’t heard anybody suggest we should play him ahead of Augustin at PG.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

you might be onto something michael

its also possible no one mentioned carroll because its totally irrelevant!

carroll = sg
dj/kemba = pg

Now….why would people be comparing DJ and Kemba?

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but everybody seems to gloss over that fact!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

We tend to

Do that with irrelevant information only introduced into the discussion to aid whatever kind of bs point it is you’re trying to make.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Sort of like how Walker's assist percentage alone is irrelevant information.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

It is when you talk

to people who actually watch the games rather than people who just glance over stat books.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not important...

Unless you consider a 40% improvement in a skill to be insignificant.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

yet Augustin is considerably more efficient

than Kemba while taking less shots, with a lower usage percentage and a higher assist percentage

that 1 assist doesn’t matter that much, but the rest of those numbers do considerably

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

More efficient, yes

But not considerably, just slightly if you look at the numbers. Kemba’s biggest weakness is easily shot selection, and that’s coachable. The biggest statistical difference in the two is 2P% because Kemba takes far too many long jumpers. Surprisingly, he is a better 3P% shooter than DJ and his PER and PPS numbers are very close.

6 feet of Smooth

by Bring Back Primoz on Feb 6, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

numbers back me up

kemba walker:

FG : .366
3pt: .364
true shooting %: .462
effective FG %: .415

dj augustin

FG%: .408
3pt%: .342
true shooting : .518
effective FG: .473

although in DJ’s rookie season, he shot .439 from 3pt land with more attempts than kemba

kemba’s fg % is .358 as a starter

and i don’t think DJ Augustin is best as a starting PG in the NBA, either, but he’s certainly a better option than Kemba when healthy

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't disagree that DJ has been better

The gap just isn’t that wide IMO. The FG% difference is basically all on long 2’s, which Kemba needs to learn to lay off a little. And DJ’s numbers have dipped some this season too. Both of them are suffering from having sucky teammates.

6 feet of Smooth

by Bring Back Primoz on Feb 6, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

The most glaring diff is assist ratio

Usage rates: Kemba 23.3, DJ 21.8
Assist ratio: Kemba 19.0, DJ 29.7
Turnover ratio: Kemba 10.6, DJ 11.3

I was just stating the root of the statistical differences is Kemba’s propensity to settle for too many long 2 pointers, which definitely needs to be reigned in. I would like to see him play with the full lineup and see how he does when he isn’t required to score as much. I feel like he has to score if the team we’re putting out there now has any chance of keeping it close. He has to learn the play the position better for sure but I don’t think he is a lost cause at this point.

6 feet of Smooth

by Bring Back Primoz on Feb 6, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i hope he isn't a lost cause

after all, he is techincally learning an all new position since he didn’t play true PG in college either

but ultimately that means we drafted two players in the top 10 based on what they MIGHT become rather than what they were likely to become

i want to see kemba succeed and prove me wrong as much as the next guy, but i’m not gonna sit here and be blindly optimistic about something the evidence points to the contrary

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Me either

I just think given all the craziness of this season, I’m willing to be patient with this team. I’m more interested in how this team (and its individuals) closes the season than how they have started the season. To be honest, I’d like to see the guys get a full offseason and see what happens next year.

6 feet of Smooth

by Bring Back Primoz on Feb 6, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

that's fair

if i’m willing to give bismack two seasons to see what kind of player he’ll be, i should be willing to do the same for kemba

it’s just that kemba had three seasons of a similar college experience that makes it hard to be patient with him

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but that's only SLIGHT!

…except it’s 12% higher in TS% and 14% higher in eFG%. To prove the irrelevance of such improvement: a 12% improvement in TS% as a team would move the Bobcats from 29th in the league to 6th, while a 14% improvement in eFG% would move us from 28th to 5th.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Comparing team stats to player stats are we.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 8:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

follow the thread

he was giving an example of how those percentages were in fact NOT insignificant at all, which i also did in a more understated manner

you don’t have to argue with everything MP posts, man, especially when he’s posting a fact and not an opinion based on fact

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

You're actually defending this man?

Why are all of his facts so relevant and all of our facts irrelevant? I am following the thread and I am seeing nonsense. I don’t care that you guys hate for Kemba has formed some kind of union, but I can say things to refute his facts just like you all can tell me facts like Thabeet having no double doubles are irrelevant.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

you're arguing with him

for the sake of arguing, which is what he wants you to do, and what he does all of the time

saying biz has more double doubles than thabeet does not at all quantify biz as a better player, there are considerably better means to prove biz is a better player, but it’s not my argument, so it’s not my place to do so

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol.

So you admit that his point is troll fueled, yet talk to me like I’m wrong for not giving a damn about stat books and saying Bismack is a better player?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

no i'm saying

you’re wasting your time… of course biz is and will likely be a better player than thabeet

what i question is your need to get he last word in when you’ve sufficiently proved your point, particularly to someone who isn’t going to ever admit he was wrong?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

he has a point

MP often baits you and TS and you bite hard

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Only in threads I create.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Obviously,

I haven’t sufficiently proven my point. It’s the same reason you and I have been discussing Kemba.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Except, unlike Procton

I only argue about things when I know I’m right or when my opinion is supported by stronger evidence.

He argues about like that half the time, hte other half is to get a rise out of people.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

True.0

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

This is wrong...

but how would you know regardless?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

because you can't possibly

reasonably think, for example, that cam newton isn’t a really good QB

so anytime i see you argue that point, i have to assume you’re just messing with people

that’s just a recent example

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I do reasonably belive that to be true.

I do not think he is a really good QB when it comes to winning games, which is a QB’s number one job. He’s a great fantasy QB who can put up magical numbers when the outcome of the game is ignored. Like Jay Cutler. Or Timmy Chang.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

neat

now let’s exclude his anamoly game against the Wizards since all of his other stats indicate, to this point, that such game was indeed an anamoly

5/22 with 9 assists over his last 2

see i can show trends, too, except mine are more consistent with his season averages

if you’re going to try and argue numbers against the two most knowledgable numbers guys on these forums, then at least come up with something valid

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

nothing more valid than using the games he split time at SG or STARTED at SG as season indicators of his point guarding performance! youre a statistical genius!!!!!11111

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

i've been pretty intent

on using the games he’s started at PG to derive the majority of my statistics from

like, as a starting point guard, kemba’s efficiency and assist % are way down

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

True fact.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:37 AM EST up reply actions  

oh

and the fact that you mention Kemba’s time at SG is another reason we’re “pigeon-holing” Kemba into a combo guard… because he is a combo guard

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

until you posted this

i hadn’t known i did, whatever game log i was looking at must’ve not had it on there

hell, adding phoenix helps my argument here, since it lowers his assist per game ratio

7 assists over his last 2 instead of 9!

on 8/27 shooting

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions  

5 ASSISTS!!!!! (not 7)

11 assists over his last 3

on 12/38 shooting!

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Well if you're throwing out anomalies

Would you not consider that dreadful Portland game as an anomaly as well?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

not when

he’s already shot 1 of 5, 1 of 6 and 1 of 9 in the season

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

interestingly enough

i find the 10 rebounds less of an anamoly than his 11 assists in that game, considering he’s recorded 8 rebounds on two other occasions but 7 or more assists on 0 other occasions

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree it wasn't anomaly for the season

I was just curious as to whether or not you were isolating his games where’s started at PG, in which case it would be such.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:57 AM EST up reply actions  

indeed

thus far, a 1 for 11 game would prove to be an anamoly as a starting point guard

but so, still, is his 11 assist game

so let’s assume each is an anamoly and exclude those statistics

as a starter then, without his 11 assist game, he’s put up 3.15 assists per game

without his 1/11 shooting night, he’s shooting .370%

as a starting pg, though, he’s shooting .336% with 4.375 assists per game – which means that the scoring anamoly is less likely to be an actual anamoly since the difference between his starting average and his starting average without the anamoly game is a lower percentage than the same with his assists

and these numbers, despite proving my point, are still skewed to favor kemba since, even though he has started and played SG, he has certainly played PG in every game he’s played in, but none of those numbers are taken into account

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay then

I understand what you are saying. Like I said on another thread, I’m not trying to claim that Kemba is perfect. I do acknowledge that he too frequently misses open teammates. But he has said that he has watched film on himself and I am hoping that he begins to better learn where to look to find his teammates. And hopefully the rest of the team can start making shots consistently to help him out when he does set them up well.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 1:24 AM EST up reply actions  

and as i've said

i hope he gets better, too

but the trends shown don’t suggest that he will

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Right.

Nothing in this statement makes you a “negative Nancy” or “not a fan” or “a jerky dickbag.” (Just made that last one up, in case anybody wants to try to find it.)

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Lol @ "Jerky Dickbag"

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 7:36 AM EST up reply actions  

+1 LOL @ "Jerky Dickbag"

Shoulda said “Idiot shot out of a cannon in a barrel full of dicks.” That would have been more appropriate.

And we’re all getting banned.

by Aisander D on Feb 7, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

To be fair...

What players don’t watch film on themselves and hope to achieve more success? Without that kind of desire, you’re probably in the wrong profession.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I know most do

And hopefully Kemba’s competitive drive will lead him to actively work on his weaknesses.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 2:13 AM EST up reply actions  

But, again...

who doesn’t? John Lucas III or Acie Law IV can actively work on their weaknesses all they want, but that will never make them good players.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 2:23 AM EST up reply actions  

And Kemba is not as talented in the right ways (I’m talking about his skillset) as he needs to be to be a top NBA player (what one expects out of a #9 pick) as a short combo guard.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's what I think:

I think Kemba is thinking too much. Early in the season, he was assisting at a decent rate. As we’ve seen the rabble about him needing to distribute more increase, we’ve seen his assist rate plummet.

He’s had multiple games where he’s distributed fairly well, but they have not come as frequently of late, and it looks like he’s forcing the issue.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 2:31 AM EST up reply actions  

You're making my point for me.

It is not natural for Walker to perform as he needs to at the NBA level. After years of playing a particular way, it is very difficult to have a sea change in that style on the fly at the NBA level.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 2:35 AM EST up reply actions  

i think we've been placing too much emphasis

on his drafted position, when you go back through recent history (15 years) and compare other number 9 picks

Amera and Iggy are the only ones that jump out and some of them have been uttery horrid. The no 9 spot hasn’t been traditionally a good spot and we’ve picked their twice now.

Granted, the fact that we moved up to select him does change things a bit.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:05 AM EST up reply actions  

but we didnt though

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

We moved up to select Bismack.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Spurs and Tony Parker

Lakers with Derek Fisher off the top of my head

by JDeLong42 on Feb 6, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

...neither of whom is close to a combo guard.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And?

They really aren’t big assist guys either. That’s the point isn’t it?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

no

the point is that no nba team has won a championship with a combo guard starting at point

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

What happens if the Thunder win the title?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

then they'll have a PG who still has a higher assist percentage

than Kemba Walker, and who still gets 6 assists per game

and if westbrook continues to struggle from the 3 point line, i imagine his assist numbers will start to increase even more

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

and how is tony parker not a true point gaurd? true point gaurd doesn’t mean they don’t look to score, it just means they usually look to pass first

unless you think magic johnson, john stockton, chris paul, deron williams and steve nash are also not true point gaurds

for that matter, derek fisher and jordan farmar were true point gaurds in a triangle offense, so of course they’re not gonna get a lot of assists, their usage percentages dictate the same

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

its harder to find the PGs in recent memory that get tons of assists and win titles. theres Rondo…..

the point is it doesnt matter at all who you point guard is. you just need some superstars and a good coach

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I highly doubt if we placed Kemba in Miami right now that he would hold the Heat back from winning a title.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt the Heat win a title this season

but quite frankly, Lebron James wouldn’t let Kemba dominate the ball like he does, and if kemba doesn’t pass, he has no usefulness to the heat, which means he’s gonna be a bench player there

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

cuz chalmers and cole drop dimes all day! oh wait..

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

lemme know when the heat win a championship

with mario chalmers as their starting pg

beyond that, chalmers has a higher assist percentage than usage percentage, which means he is clearly a pass first point guard, even if he isn’t the floor general

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Kemba’s ast% is higher than Chalmers

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

and his usage % is considerably higher

assist % is the percentage of baskets that a player assisted on

usage % is the percentage of plays that a player touched the ball

Chalmers doesn’t touch the ball very often in that offense, but when he does, he looks to pass.

Also, Miami hasn’t won a championship with Mario Chalmers as the starting point guard, so he’s irrelevent to this conversation

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

please spit out a conclusion already, all you are doing is posting irrelevant statistics with no point.

its like you think I’m saying Kemba Walker is a first option on a championship team. obviously he’s not but he’s the first option on OUR team because we suck. im not sure how you draw the conclusion that he will always be our first option just because he is right now.

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

that conclusion

is based on the fact that, as a top 10 pick, if he’s anything but our future option he is a bust

not to mention he’s literally been called a franchise savior on these forums

keep up please

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

thats not a conclusion that can possibly be derived from your random statistical “points” and has nothing to do with the FACT that assist rates have 0 correlation to winning championships and efficiency as a 1st option has nothing to do with efficiency as a projected 3rd to 4th option. (unless you think the ultimate goal is to have our 9th overall pick be a 1 or 2 option on a title contender).

Also you already said DJ Augustin isn’t a championship PG for our team yet he scores efficiently and has a 36%ast rate. Why don’t you see him as a championship level PG?

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

DJ Augustin

was never billed as a PG to build a team around, even coming out of the draft

i also said dj couldn’t be a starting pg, and his defensive inadequacy is the reason for that, not his solid efficiency or passing ability, cocincidentally, DJ Augustin was also a number 9 pick and had arguably better rookie numbers than kemba right now

andre igoudala and amare stoudamire were both number 9 picks, for example

but any top 10 pick should be someone worth building around if the pick isn’t a bust at least to a degree

also, you can’t prove that assist rates have 0 correlation to winning championships, in fact the mavericks were second in assists per game last season

finally, how can you not derive the conclusion that i think kemba walker is going to be a bust, in a thread about him possibly being a bust, when practically ever number i’ve shown about him supports that he isn’t a great player, and therefore, a bust?

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

lol im just toying with you, you already agreed with me a long time ago when I said the only thing that matters is great players with a great coach. You said Fisher was great in their system despite his statistical mediocreness. So you already agreed that a point guards stats don’t really matter, its just great players being used correctly by coaches.

the whole irrelevant “bust” thing youre trying to prove judging a player 20 games into their rookie season playing 2 different positions with a bad coach and horrible roster is retarded and i would never even bother trying to debate something so silly.

anyway nice discussion lmao

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

by toying

you mean wasting both of our time be fallaciously arguing a point without providing so much as a semblance of knowledge or fact to back up your opinion, and then nonchalantly giving up and disguising it as a game?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you already said stats are irrelevant yourself in regards to Fisher

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

scroll up if you dont believe me. you tried your best to divert the subject to something about Reggie Williams efficiency and the Heat having no chance to win a title because they have Mario Chalmers (lmao)

better go find some more stats

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

actually

what i said was that they had low usage percentages in a triangle offense, which must be taken into account when considering assists %’s – their assists % were higher than their usage %, which I have been consistent about also, saying is a good indicator of a pass first pg

not to mention, all of that was to support my statement that no team has won an nba championship with a combo guard as their starting point guard – the point was NOT that an nba championship team needs to run their offense through a true point guard

i never brought up mario chalmers, someone else did, but since the heat never won a championship with him as their starting PG, which i pointed out numerous times, was irrelevent

so care to back up your opinions with any facts this century?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Despite what your own personal (aka meaningless) definitions, Tony Parker playing with Ginobili and Chauncey Billups are indeed combo guard PGs. You could even argue Dwyane Wade was a combo guard PG for the Heat considering he initiated the offense and brought the ball up the floor almost all the time. Theres Fisher. If anything, pass first PGs winning titles is more of the anomaly with only Rondo and Kidd in recent memory

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

but again in all seriousness, youre freaking out over a small sample size and using stats when Kemba hasnt even been playing all PG this season

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

indeed

his sample size in the nba is small

but when he’s played the same way for the previous 3 seasons (or more going back to high school) of his basketball career, i think it’s odder to expect him to change that drastically

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

but again in all seriousness...

youre (sic) ignoring the fact that Walker’s numbers have gotten worse as an overall offensive player (scoring efficiency and passing rate) since becoming the only healthy PG on the roster.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

oh so

i totally forgot that billups and parker logged so many minutes at SG in their championship season… oh wait, they didn’t? really? SHOCKING! Wait you mean to tell me they were actually the facilitators on those offenses and averaged around 6 assists per game? NO WAY!

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:43 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think Kemba was playing SG

Partly because of the lack of talent on the team and as a way to just get him on the floor.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

hey, I never supported Kemba playing a single minute of SG and neither did 90% Bobcats fans. We screwed up Felton and DJ the same way and it took them a while to get back on the path to normal PG development.

And Billups did play some offguard those years with Lindsey Hunter in the backcourt with him. And Parker did sit back and focus on scoring while letting Ginobili handle the creation many times

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

We didn't "screw up" Felton at all in playing SG.

When playing SG beside of Knight and McInnis, he was consistently more efficient as both a scorer and passer. He’s simply not a starting-caliber NBA point guard.

And you’re wrong on Hunter, too. Never started more than eight games or averaged more than 20 MPG during the Pistons ’00s run.

Nor did Ginobili ever have the stats to back up your argument about him.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Billups shared the backcourt

with Richard Hamilton in their championship year and played PG exclusively the entire season on his way to Finals MVP

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

He did...

But there is certainly a possibility that Hunter played some limited minutes at alongside Billups when Hamilton was on the bench.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

yes of course

but i believe he was implying that hunter played pg while billups played sg

And Billups did play some offguard those years with Lindsey Hunter in the backcourt with him

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

they did in fact play together in the backcourt at times. hell I don’t even know if that era of Pistons team HAD a backup SG..look it up for me stat man

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

it's not my responsibility to look up stats for you

even then, you’re going to have a hard time showing that Billups ever played off guard on that championship team

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm just here because

i always wanted to reply on the small side of the board

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I would imagine that's how it happened.

Lindsey Hunter isn’t much of an anything but a passer.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha...

Tony Parker ranks 38th all-time in assist percentage. Not a combo guard. And the fact that you mention his shooting guard, who has never exceeded 4.9 APG, does not support the notion that he was taking away any of the playmaking duties.

As a Piston, Billups ranked in the top 10 in NBA assist percentage three consecutive years during the peak of that team’s success.

And no, the fact that Fisher neither scores much nor gets many assists due to his role of the offense does not mean he is a combo guard or “non-pass-first PG.”

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup...pretty much.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you're missing the point here

Adam. That point is really that championships aren’t really about any one player, especially a point guard. Look at the last few NBA champions. Kidd was a complimentary piece to the Dirk Nowitzki show. Derek Fisher has always been that in LA as well. Same with Rondo in Boston. A point guards wins and assist rates will always be based on talent around them than their own great play. The key thing these championship guards have in common isn’t high assist numbers, high scoring rates, or any other true stat. What they do have in common is they were stabilizing players surrounded by great players who could do their jobs, and that’s why I disagree with your notion that Kemba can’t grow into that type of player. But it is also why I agree that the player that Kemba is now isn’t good enough to be a starting championship guard. He really is eventually going to have to slow down a bit and not be as much a gunner unless he inproves his efficiency immensely. I know where you’re coming from. If I’m the Heat, I would probably rather have someone like Schumpert at PG, even though I feel Kemba individually is a much better player.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

since we drafted kemba

people have widely considered kemba to be a key part of our franchise future, which has been predicted to be a successful future

he was taken inside the top 10 of a draft in which last year, people on this very same forum were calling “deep” and are now calling one of the worst ever

he has been literally called a franchise savior on these same forums

now people are backing off and calling him a “second, third option”, when the expectations of him just a few months ago were dramatically higher, and i can prove it by referencing posts

now i get flack for calling him a bust when he’s nothing, so far, of living up to the expectations i’ve been lead to believe people have of him, when all along i was calling him a bad pick

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't see why

People would say he isn’t a key part of the future. Just because he isn’t the greatest player on the team doesn’t mean he isn’t an important contributor. Odom was a key contributor to the Lakers championship run, and he came off the bench. Role players are important too whether they are starting like Fisher, or off the bench like Odom.

Yes, this is one of the weakest and deepest drafts in recent memory. Those don’t cancel each other out. That’s what was said and that’s what is being said now. It was weak in regards that there was no Lebron James in this draft, the number one pick played about 6 games in his freshman college career, about half of the top 10 players were foreign prospects and there was a chance the 30th pick in the draft could contribute as much as those drafted at the top, which has proven to be true as well.

I don’t recall seeing anyone thinking Kemba was a savior, especially when everyone pretty much agreed we would be one of the worst teams in the league. I know I’ve certainly never said that, so that’s really something I don’t feel I need to discuss.

I’m not sure who had you under the impression that Kemba was a number 1 option on the scale of Lebron, or Kobe, or even CP3, but you were misled. Plus, I think you labeling him a bust in his rookie year 23 games in is extremely premature, especially since no one picked after him is putting up great numbers themselves. Stat for stat, even Brooks hasnt been significantly better,

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 11:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i've addressed the issue

of calling him a bust prematurely, i won’t address it beyond this… he deserves more time

that doesn’t change the fact that all of my initial perceptions of him have been actualized

beyond that, you don’t build around role players, they’re what you use to build around a star, so we have no business building around kemba walker unless he’s a star – if the perception of Kemba was that is going to be a solid 6th man, then why have people been pushing to trade DJ, including yourself?

and if you want me to do a quote by quote thing like i did with focus, i have no problem doing that

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Who said to build around Kemba?

I think you’re confused. The entire plan has always been to build around our top pick next year. Bismack, Kemba, Hendo, and the rest have ALWAYS been regarded as complimentary players. I think you are going to have to pull out quotes, because I don’t recall anyone saying Kemba was a top 10 player or a player we should build around. There was NO ONE in this draft of that caliber.

I’m actually one of the FEW people who endorsed trying to resign DJ. In fact, I posted an entire thread about it though a good majority of the site don’t even feel we should even try it. The fact that I recognize there is a good chance DJ will be traded doesn’t mean that it’s my first option.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 11:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

please go back and read posts from a few months ago

although i will admit that you have been open minded about kemba from the get go, as far back as july 21st, in this post http://www.rufusonfire.com/2011/7/21/2282815/for-the-charlotte-bobcats-the-future-is-now , you suggested that Kemba is part of our future and destined to be our starting PG

you also made a pretty insane comparison to wade, but it was mostly in passing

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

i was referencing

the seeming mindset of rufusonfire patrons as a whole

you yourself called him the potential face of the franchise

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

What can I say?

I’m a fan and an optimist. A PG version of Wade is still my best case scenario for him. But I never suggested it was a sure thing. If that was the case, I would’ve been telling everyone how much I wanted him on draft night. But I did that with no one because not many players stood out above the rest to me, and I certainly never seen any superstars in this draft, before or after. I mean, you can say what you want about Kemba, he hasn’t been overly impressive I agree. But I’m not sure that anyone picked after him will ever reach the expectations that you have set for them based on their draft spots.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

here's the simple truth

all signs indicate that kemba walker can never be a modern prototype point guard in the NBA

this doesn’t exclude him from being a successful NBA player

however, in today’s NBA your point guard typically needs to be able to facilitate the offense and play all around good defense… there are exceptions to this rule, like Steve Nash, but even he consistently leads the NBA in charges taken

a player Kemba’s size cannot have a consistent career starting in the NBA because he can’t be a facilitator on offense but must dominate the ball to be effective, and he’s far too undersized to be effective at shooting guard in this league

so basically in order to be successful in the NBA, Kemba is going to have to change his game considerably, which isn’t easy to do by any stretch of the imagination

i’m glad that you personally have been cautiously optimistic about Kemba, but the sportsworld as a whole has been very high on Kemba, unnecessarily so

coming into the draft, many Bobcats fans here were hoping that we would manage to pick Kemba Walker, presuming that PG was our biggest need

experts as well were salivating over Kemba… ESPN even had an article detailing how Kemba Walker was the next “sure thing”

Suddenly, Kemba Walker has gone from franchise savior (maybe not to you, but to others as has been shown) to third or fourth option, in some instances a bench role player

How is a bench role player (which, at this rate, is Kemba’s ultimate destiny if he doesn’t change his game) worth the 9th pick in the NBA draft? What’s he going to do? Come off the bench and provide a scoring punch? That’s DJ Augustin’s true job… Kemba hasn’t been efficient at scoring his entire career and he’s even worse as a pro so far. He’ll find his shot, but there’s no reason to expect he’ll be a better shooter in the pros than in college. Why would we want a guy to come off the bench and score efficiently every third night or so?

I hope, I truly do, that Kemba can develop into a modern point guard who can both score and facilitate when called upon to. I hope that he can live up to a top 10 pick selection, which history has shown typically ranges from a starting role player to an NBA superstar. There are plenty of busts in there, too. That’s because they had the same expectations of being a top 10 pick that Kemba does, and should, have.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Odom ranks in the NBA’s top 100 all-time in overall and defensive rebounding rate as well as defensive win shares. At this point, what do you think Walker does well enough that you conceivably think he could statistically finish as one of the top 100 players all time in any category?

The depth point you make is absolutely correct. That’s exactly why a tradeup of 12 spots was largely irrelevant, much of it canceled out by the increase in salary over the length of the rookie deal.

Also,

DJ isn’t the franchise savior we hope(d) Kemba could be.

by southtunnel on Jan 29, 2012 10:49 AM EST

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

i was gonna do this if it came to it :-(

there’s a nice post by someone named D.W.G. as well stating Kemba will be a future all-star and that he’s better than dj augustin (before he ever played a game)

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha...

I’m a big fan of the search function, especially on such a fun word like ‘savior’ nobody would ever use.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I did a whole post on Bacon flavored ice cream awhile back.

So look out for it because I’m pretty sure I misspelled “savor” a couple times.

by Aisander D on Feb 7, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

that sounds terribly awful

but i’m not a big fan of bacon, either

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

[not a real person]

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I meant him with the non-bacon business.

Bacon makes everything better.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Did I post that comment?

Or is it my job to go through and read every comment made by other people and act as though it came out of my mouth. And the key word is “hoped”. You can try to act as though that means that everyone placed their eggs in that basket, but if you look up the definition of hope and compared it to the definition of anticipated or expected, then you would know the difference. No one is going to tell me that Kemba was annointed a savior because he wasn’t. When you have a “savior”, you don’t expect your team to be one of the worst in the NBA which prettying everyone expected. So, you can go ahead and cut out your quoting because it really does your argument no justice. Point out to me where myself or another group of people called him a savior. Not a quote that says one person “hoped” for it.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i got this one MP

CB, you’ve got to stop arguing over silly things with him. It’s just wasting your time, giving yourself a headache.

Here is why he posted what he did.

Please, please, please stop denying the overwhelming feeling from a few months ago that Kemba Walker was the future of this franchise. Franchise savior was the highest extreme, but no question people were considering him our starting point guard going forward… some still do!

I don’t recall seeing anyone thinking Kemba was a savior, especially when everyone pretty much agreed we would be one of the worst teams in the league

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Because Kemba is a GOOD PLAYER.

You can tell me that he doesn’t have a spot in the NBA as a starting PG or SG or whatever you want, but the fact is that Kemba has already demonstrated that putting up 20+ point games is nothing to him and putting up triple doubles isn’t out of the question. You’re getting too caught up on prototype players and what not and not recognizing the fact that Kemba is a good player, point blank.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

you do realize he's averaged almost 40 minutes

in those games he’s scored 20+ points

and all four of them were agianst bottom 7 defensive teams

Greivis Vasquez dropped 20 points and 12 dimes on Phoenix and their talent level isn’t considerably greater than the Bobcats, he also has multiple 20 game efforts… do you think he’s a good NBA player? Do you think he’s as good as Kemba?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't live in the stat books.

No, Vasquez is not better than Kemba. I’m sure an NBA GM would tell you that, even though they have all of the stats right in front of their eyes.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

We know.

You live in the world where your superior judgment and observations rule over all.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Triple-doubles aren't out of the question for James Posey or Chris Duhon, either.

And they’ve also had 20+ scoring games (five for Posey as a rookie, even!) Does that mean they should have gone top ten in their respective drafts?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You're still not telling me

the great players that were passed on. That’s the key thing you’re missing and just trying to argue over. I won’t respond to you anymore until you do.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

that argument goes both ways, though

who is considerably worse than kemba that we couldn’t have traded down and got something else for him? the bobcats were set on drafting kemba from the get go and i bet if they would’ve thought he woudlve gone 8th, they woudlve taken him with the 7th pick instead of biz

but you said yourself our key needs were sf and c – biz might be a c, what about SF? i can certainly name some SF’s i’d rather have over kemba – Leonard and Harris (who we could’ve gotten anyway at 19) for example, even Chris Singleton, who is a defensive wizard

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Key needs as far team building for this year goes.

Instead we went BPA and despite your pessimism, there is still a good chance we got it right. Sure, the team would’ve been constructed better to compete this year, but competing this year has NEVER been the objective.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

with considerable holes to fill

and most of the roster being gone in 2 seasons

almost any position we took would’ve been helping us compete in the future as well

but filling immediate holes would’ve helped us be more competitive now and actually compete later

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

How do you call a guy who never did better than 7-7-2 in Spain the best player available with a straight face?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL...

I can’t wait until the Bobcats have a “complimentary piece” good enough to finish in the top ten in the NBA in two major categories like Jason Kidd did last year (assists and steals per game.) And Walker has shown no signs of being a “stabilizing player” at any point. As I have noted, for him to reach his NBA potential, he will have to completely revamp the way he plays the game. That’s not ideal with a top-ten pick.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

lol

that scottie pippen was a pretty good “complimentary piece”, too

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

And so was Artest and Derek Fisher for LA. So was Deshawn Stevenson, JJ Barea, and Peja for the Mavericks. So was PJ Brown and James Posey for the Celtics. If you were ever looking for a Scottie Pippen, aka hall of famer, in this draft, you were setting yourself up for disappointment from the start.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I bet at least one player from this draft

will eventually be a hall of famer

not to mention, the point was, Jason Kidd or Scottie Pippen weren’t “complimentary pieces” to their superstars, they were just as important to that team’s success

Of course, I could compare the draft positions of all those “complimentary pieces” if you’d like?

Metta World Peace – 16th
Derek Fisher – 24th
DeShawn Stevenson – 23rd
JJ Barea – undrafted
Peja Stojakavic – 14th
PJ Brown – 29th
James Posey – 18th

Basically, Peja was the only player you mentioned who was a lottery pick, and a late lottery pick at that. Of course, he’s also a 3 Time All Star, Most Improved Player, Greekleague MVP, Euroleague MVP and 2 Time Mister Europa Player of the Year.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And of course

he couldn’t carry a team to a title without DIrk. And of course Mike couldn’t have done it without Scottie. And Ray Allen couldn’t, KG couldn’t, and Paul Pierce couldn’t by themselves. The simple point is that it takes a TEAM of good players to get a ring. And if you don’t think Kemba is a good player who could contribute heavily on a championship team, then we just have to agree to disagree. Anything added to that isn’t anything I’m trying to get into.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

i'll certainly agree to disagree

but let me ask you something, in what way do you envision Kemba Walker contributing on a championship team?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

In the role he's playing now.

Like I said, if you put him on Miami, he will not hinder their chances of winning a championship at all. I’m sure a great deal of people around the world would say he improves their chances. I certainly would.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

because Kemba's miles ahead of Norris Cole?

or Mario Chalmers for that matter?

Chalmers started every game for the Heat in his rookie season and they made the playoffs. He’s also having his best season to date with Cole breathing down his neck.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

This.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Like i said,

a great deal of people around the world would say the same thing. It’s not up to a majority to prove a point.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

In the role he's playing now?

Starting point guard, team leader in shots? Hmm…

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

Because if he was playing for a title, he damn sure wouldn’t have Tyrus Thomas playing SF.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

if he were playing for the heat

he certainly wouldn’t succeed in the role he’s playing now

which is to dominate the ball and take a lot of shots while hardly involving one’s teammates

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If he was playing for the Heat, he wouldn't have to.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 2:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

but you argued that

he would win a championship in the role he’s playing now, then suggested he’d do that on miami

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

And of course you all twisted me saying the role he is playing now into what it needed to be so you can disagree. When I said the role he is playing now, I’m not talking about leading the team in shots. I’m talking about him just being needed to take shots when he gets them and do good when he gets the ball. The Hear are an iso heavy team so he would fit in fine and be able to pass the ball when he needs to. Good players play good ball together. It’s crazy that because he isn’t your prototypical point guard that you think he can’t have a big role on a good team. The man won a national title. That should tell you enough.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Except... he usually doesn't make his shots.

also how did anyone twist your words?

does not the title of your response directly relate to the response within it?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Because its so easy for you too add

Stuff to a discussion that has no reason being there. For example, I say that Kemba could succeed in his current role in a Heat uniform. To me, “role” for Kemba simply means starting PG. For you, “role” is interpreted as a player who takes the most shots on the team. But I’m sure in the end I’ll be the one “wrong” because I didn’t make myself clear enough, although what I was saying should’ve been clear enough.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

If it's not clear enough to your audience...

It’s not clear enough. Ever taken a public speaking or a writing class?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

This clown still speaking to me?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 8, 2012 9:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

but you specifically stated

the role he’s in now as team leader in shots….

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Where???????????

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 8, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Wait, we "twisted" you?

How exactly did that happen? That’s what you wrote. Was it not of your own free will?

And P.S.: Juan Dixon won a national title as a PG. How many good teams did he have a big role on? Since that was a primary point you’re arguing and all.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

in this instance

the team would dictate the actions of its members. If we picked up Chris Paul, he’d have to take more shots than he’s used to because throwing the ball around all day would net him next to nothing on this team.

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

It would certainly net him more than Walker.

See: Augustin, DJ or Williams, Reggie.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

100% speculation

your opinion doesn’t change the fact that the players that receive the pass have to still shoot and make the shot, something this team as a whole simply has failed to do. Chris Paul can’t magically up their percentages. Next!

by jovox on Feb 7, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, but Augustin and Williams HAVE DONE JUST THAT!!!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

dribbling down the shot clock

then having players shoot as it expires, regardless of how wide open they are, isn’t typically a good strategy

good point guards put their teammates in the best possible scenario to score

against Boston, Kemba did that a total of four times, but unfortunately, the players were fouled both times and the other two times resulted in assists

those passes to boris and mullens were all after the shot clock was winding down to 0

do i think nba players should be able to hit those shots anyway? yes. but our players can’t and it’s kemba’s responsibility, along with the coaching staff, to find more suitable ways to set them up

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

You keep talking about what's

Ideal and what’s not with so and so picks. Tell me Michael, who did we skip over that could come in and be that oh so great player you were expecting out of the draft. Had we taken Brooks, the Morris boys, Klay Thompson, Singleton, or whoever you would be complaining about them as well.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What was our primary need coming into the draft?

the moment we traded Liv away, it became point guard – instead we got an undersize combo guard, who, ironically, we traded Liv away to get

by picking Kemba, we were essentially picking DJ Augustin’s replacement, instead of a guy who would be able to start over DJ, since we basically picked someone with a similar skillset to DJ, except DJ is a better passer and more efficient scorer

it doesn’t matter if those picks are struggling, most of them are buried in the depth chart, having had no time to prove themselves in the lockout shortened season – those picks would’ve been SMARTER picks

instead we basically forced ourselves to trade away DJ Augustin since it makes little sense to have two point guards who do essentially the same thing, even if the one we’re trading away does it better at this point, in other words, we sacrificed both our point guards for Kemba Walker

and you want to tell me why it wasn’t a bad pick?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Our primary need became a PG

after we traded away Livingston? Lol. No. Our primary need was a SF or a C. You can’t sit here and talk about how great Shaun Livingston is when the fact is his trade value isn’t nearly as high as Kemba’s. Next year, he could probably be signed for another cheap deal. Of course, having him on the team to compliment our undersized guards would help a lot, but I think you’re not realizing that “team building” wasn’t the primary focus of this year. If that was the case, we would’ve selected a SF and C with our draft picks to plug in around DJ, Henderson, and Tyrus and then move forward from there.

DJ is a better passer and more efficient scorer at this point, but I think it’s funny how much you guys forget that DJ has been in the league for several years now and had the exact same questions about transitioning into a passing PG rather than a scoring PG as late as the beginning of the season last year. I’m not sure why you think it’s impossible for Kemba to focus more on passing than on shooting, but it really isn’t. When there are superior players around for him to defer to and he’s still taking a lot of shots, that is when I will question it. For now though, trust me, I’m fine with the number of shots Kemba is taking.

And you can tell me about smarter picks all you want, but I’m not sure what evidence of them being “smarter” picks exists. Am I supposed to think that Jimmer would make us a lot more better at this point? Am I supposed to think we’d be great with Leonard? Am I supposed to think that Marshon Brooks would’ve come in and turned us into a contender (also, how would he and Henderson had meshed together?)? It’s your opinion those would’ve been smarter picks and nothing more. It’s my opinion that Kemba is a good pick and nothing more. Don’t treat them as facts.

And there have been enough questions about DJ through the years to wonder if he’s capable of being a starting point guard going forward. Shaun Livingston was signed to close to a minimum level deal. I think you’re overrating them just a tad bit.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

When we traded Liv

we had one point guard on the roster.

When we drafted Kemba, who was virtually DJ Augustin 2.0 right out of college, we were basically saying he’s DJ’s replacement.

If SF and C were our biggest need, then how could you at all be satisfied with having drafted Kemba in the first place? Hence the reason it wasn’t a smart pick, as other needs were greater.

Oh, and DJ Augustin started out as an off guard for Larry Brown when he wanted to run a small lineup.

He also played only 2 years in college and played true point as a freshman, getting 14.4 PPG and 6.7 assists per game with Durant.

In his second year, as the team’s primary scorer, he won the Cousy award. He was also a 1st team academic all american. That is irrelevent, just fun to note.

His intelligence is part of the reason Larry Brown liked him so much as a rookie. Unfortunately, his unwillingness or inability to play defense like Larry demanded forced him into a considerably diminished role.

So, uh, the point being, unlike Kemba, given his history as a true point guard, anyone who questioned his ability to be such in the NBA weren’t very astute.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Honestly, it's making my head

hurt arguing with you over Kemba. You’re talking about Cousy awards and all type of other stuff I really don’t think have any bearing on his success. All I can say is watch the games. Formulate your own opinion, but don’t think you’ll change mine with history lessons or statistics.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

i've learned a long time ago

you can’t change the minds of people who don’t acknowledge reason or facts

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

although

i’m not trying to change your mind about anything, but i am trying to show that just because my opinion isn’t that of popular public opinion doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid opinion

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

No one accused your opinion of not

Being valid. You can believe what you want but ultimately you’re trying to convince people player A is better than player B because his stats are better and player B will also never be of the caliber to start on a championship team no matter how good he is because he plays a certain way. Its fine u believe Kemba or Bismack are busts, but not everyone feels the same way. Just like you have your reasons, others have theirs. I don’t log on to debate about who is better than who because it all is subjective in the end. I personally believe Jermaine O’neal is one of the worst NBA players of all time. Stats suggest otherwise, but people believe what they want.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 2:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

simply by arguing against my opinion

dictates that you think your opinion is at least more valid, if mine isn’t in fact invalid

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Say what?

Isn’t that the point where we agree to disagree? I’m not sure exactly why you’re trying to add a superiority complex to the discussion. You’re arguing against my point just as much.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

two things

1 – agreeing to disagree is just an easy scapegoat to try and end a debate; you can agree or disagree about opinions, but you’ve disagreed with some facts

2 – you said so yourself that you believe what you believe based on your own reasons, so why bother arguing at all? if nothing i say is going to change the way you believe, then why not assume the same for me? why feel compelled to keep going?

the point being, you clearly care otherwise you wouldn’t keep posting

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

all you give is opinions. statistics are facts…the conclusions you reach from them: “he’s a bust” “he can’t/won’t change his playstyle” “he NEEDS to change his playstyle” “he can’t improve” are all opinions

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly!

i base my opinions on reasoning and factual information, not because i “feel” a certain way

so if someone is going to disagree with me, i feel obligated to support my fact-based opinions, and more often than not, especially on this site, the person has no facts to support their opinion

for example: he’s a bust – why? because he’s a top 9 pick which has expectations of future all-star player with it, if not more, in order to be an all-star, he has to mold himself to the nba game as it stands right now. combo-guards don’t often make the all-star game. kemba is a combo-guard. 6’1" combo guards have NEVER made an all star game. in fact, 6’1" shooting guards don’t have much success in the NBA, which means he’s gonna need to focus on playing PG. to play PG in today’s NBA, it is a generally regarded truth that a player needs to be able to pass well and dictate offense… the elite PG’s can also score when necessary or the advantage dictates it

so to be a typically successful point guard in the nba, kemba needs to be a pure point guard. at uconn, kemba was more of a combo guard than point guard, and thus far, in his VERY short NBA career, he’s been the same

now, not all of this information can be backed up with stats, although i have shown a buttload of them – some of them, like undersized combo-guards aren’t successful in the nba, are simply generally regarded truths

is that clear enough for you?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Kemba lead his team to a national title on college.

Fact. I can make it that easy too if thats what you want to do, but coming up with all of these facts gets old in the end. I have plenty of evidence to enforce my belief that Kemba is a good player, but anything I say somehow ends up being irrelevant. Like I say, you can believe what you want to believe. You’re the one still talking about it.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

We have cited a totally reasonable fact, namely that there are very few <6’2" players who are able to succeed in the NBA while looking to score first. If you have a way to counter this, feel free to try. However, your assertion that Walker lead his team to a national title is irrelevant because that has no correlation to NBA success. So did Jon Scheyer. Where’s he these days?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Facts like Kemba is a bust?

Or Thabeet is better than Biyombo? I think you need reevaluate the definition of facts. I don’t need a scapegoat to get out of a discussion about someone labeling a rookie a busy after barley over 20 games in a lockout season. That just means I’m done talking about it. You place all of your faith in numbers, I don’t.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

umm no

my opinion is that kemba will be a bust, i used facts to support that statement

sounds like you need to reevaluate the definition of facts, actually

however, what apparently differs is our definition of a bust… you don’t think a number 9 pick is a bust if he becomes a role player, probably off the bench

i would like to think that a 9th pick should be a continual contributer to an NBA team as a starter (I can live with 6th man in today’s NBA) and probable All-Star – there have been multiple picks at the 9th spot who have had great NBA success, however, only two in recent years – and guess what, i imagine you’d consider them all busts, wouldn’t you?

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

You used facts to support your opinion.

Kemba won a national championship and achieved a triple double in his first 20 games in the NBA, something tons of players are NEVER able to achieve. I just used facts to say that Kemba will be a good player. Surely you can see how useless going down this road is. What is the purpose?

And you are CRAZY if you think anyone in this class will be a perennial All-Star other than maybe Irving. Take a look at the previous all-star teams from the past 5 years and then tell me where these guys from this draft fit in?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 8, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Your facts have no correlation with the point you're trying to make.

Chris Duhon is a national championship-winning, triple-doubling PG. Not a very godo player.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 12, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Augustin has consistently been a significantly better distributor...

both in college and throughout his NBA career. At his worst, Augustin’s pure PG rating was significantly better than Walker’s at any point during his post-HS career.

Nobody said that other rookies would make us better now as though that matters. We said they would be smarter picks who would make sense for the future because they fit in and compliment (funny, how you used that word above) the players we already have.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I might be...

But I would at least be comfortable in knowing that a strategy was applied in which we did not marginalize one of the best players on our team (DJ Augustin) to draft a player who has no NBA position. I have given you my draft thoughts ad nauseum, but you never respond and keep asking for them. Search for the most recent time I mentioned Faried on the board, and you’ll find it.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL...

That’s because he would hardly see the court. As a complimentary part, he’s not better than Cole or Chalmers.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Norris Cole..

Lord help me.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

jason kidd only averaged 7.3 assists in the playoffs.

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

ONLY?

i missed the part where 7 assists a game was something to scoff at, or a 32.7% assist percentage to a paltry 15.1 usage percentage

that 7.3 was also his highest per playoff game in a dallas uniform

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont understand the relevance to the argument that it doesnt matter what your PGs stats are. are you saying ast% is correlated to championships? so thats why Rondo and Kidd have 1 each and Fisher has 5?

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

no

i’m saying, championship teams don’t have combo gaurds as their starting point gaurds

Derek Fisher is a true point gaurd in a triangle offense. For the sake of earlier arguments, so is Mario Chalmers.

They both look to set up their teammates when they have the ball. Kemba doesn’t. He didn’t at UCONN. His mindset is to be the primary scorer. At the NBA level, though, you can’t be that ineffecient and expect to win games, regardless of your position. Definately not at the PG position.

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

youre pidgeonholing Kemba into the position of “combo guard” just because he is literally forced to try to score on our team because they arent very good. Unsurprisingly a pretty similar situation to UConn. Why not wait and see how he plays with some actual talent. His passing looked pretty good when he played in a game with somewhat close talent levels against Washington

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

so now you're suggesting

that kemba walker is the most talented player on the Bobcats

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

or that really good point guards

don’t actually make the team better around them, or set their teammates up

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

is Kemba Walker the best scoring option among constantly hurt Henderson, Carroll, TT, Mully, Diop, Bismack, refuse-to-shoot Diaw, Derrick Brown, Higgins, DJ White, Najera and whoever else I forgot?

gee I dunno but he damn sure isn’t anywhere near the bottom

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

most of those players

are way more effecient than kemab, that’s for sure

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

so your conclusion is that Silas is a fool for not constructing the offense of this current team around DJ White, or that Kemba’s selfishness is preventing us from running our potentially most efficient offense through the hands of DJ White as our primary 1st role option on offense. We would be a better team in that scenario.

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

tell me if im missing anything

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

how did you get DJ White out of that?

Kemba has been his (Kemba’s) only option since he stepped on the court. It doesn’t matter who is around him. Reggie Williams had a great game (funny how you failed to mention him, by the way), but was only assisted by Kemba once.

Williams got 6 assists, none of those were to Kemba, so that means he managed to get more assists with the same amount of talent kemba did, while scoring at a more effecient rate

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t understand. So Kemba should have been running the offense through Reggie Williams while he was on the bench with a knee injury? I didn’t name him because he hasn’t played. Hint: I didn’t name Maggette either!

Reggie did have a great game. What does that have to do with Kemba (who also had a great game)?

Once again, you keep just listing statistics without stating your argument or point and leaving me to fill in the blanks.

So the fact that Reggie Williams had a game and finished with more assists than Kemba means what? That Kemba is missing opportunities on the court? That Reggie would be a better point guard? That Kemba fits well with a guard that can also create and they can both have great games at the same time(gasp!)? That Kemba is the PG and shouldn’t be letting Reggie Williams create because that’s HIS job?

Please take all these retarded statistics you keep pointlessly gathering and form them into an argument so I know exactly what you are saying.

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions  

i think i was pretty clear about what i've been saying

kemba walker is a poor distributer and an inefficient combo guard who probably won’t help the team be better in the long term

but i’m sorry you’re too ignorant to computate statistics and factual information to figure that out for yourself

of course, it’s not like i should expect much, as you haven’t provided support for any statement you’ve made thus far

of course, the whole argument was started by you questioning why i think kemba is going to end up as a bust (is a bust), so it should be pretty obvious, on a discussion thread, that any arguments i make against kemba would ultimately be leading to that same conclusion

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Kemba is an underrated passer.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

statistics suggest otherwise

you must be focus in disguise, you’re allergic to stats (read: facts)

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Please take your personal insults and keep them to yourself so we know you're capable of making a coherent argument.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Wowzers.

You are (were?) on a friggin’ roll!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

And, strangely, they somehow are good enough to make Augustin look MUCH better than Walker as a distributor.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

And somehow,

You ignore the fact that Augustin had to learn to play PG in the NBA and had hard ass Larry Brown on his back his first two years to make sure that’s what he was doing. Trust me Michael, it’s great that you constantly compare NBA vets to rookies barely 20 games into their careers. It makes so much sense.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

augustin

was a better passer coming out of college

and despite having larry brown as a coach, still managed over 20 minutes a game as a rookie

since both dj augustin and kemba walker are Cousy award winning point guards with similar height and sort of similar skillset, (particularly coming out of college), comparing them will almost always be a fair comparison

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So why not compare

the talent that they played with in their rookie years?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

there's no real measureable way

i will say that the bobcats of that 2008 season were also last in scoring, which does make dj’s numbers a little more impressive

but, using the eye test, dj got a lot of open looks that year and hit them… kemba is getting a lot of open looks this year (I will say creating his own shot is a strength) and is missing them

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

That much I agree with.

Kemba isn’t hitting the shots, but he’s getting himself the space to take them.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

No, we're pigeonholing Walker into the position of "combo guard" because that's the only way he's played since high school.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This this this this THIS.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Just out of curiosity,

What kind of numbers will Kemba need to put up for you to not consider him a bust?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 4:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

it's not all about numbers for me, but

as a starting point gaurd in the nba, i want to see, 15+ ppg, 7+ assists, 1.5+ steals, 3- turnovers, and .420+ FG% – he’s every close to those numbers as a starter

however, he still hasn’t shown that he can be the initiator on offense or set his teammates up, which are necessary qualities for a starting point gaurd… he’s a combo-gaurd, and might be a decent one

I like that he’s a good rebounder but I don’t like that he doesn’t seem to be able to run an offense. He has been undeniably inefficient, in the 300’s in FG %. Also his assist % is heart-breakingly low for a starting PG and dropping consistently with each start. (21.47 as a starter)

He’s a rookie, so it’s unfair to call him a bust just yet, I’ll admit. However, as I said, given the type of player he is, his ceiling is Ben Gordon, to me. Far from the “franchise savior” everyone is making him out to be.

For comparison’s sake:

Chris Paul – 43.8, 38.2 as a rookie
Deron Williams – 46.4, 28.6 as a rookie
Raymon Felton – 31.4, 30.9 as a rookie
Rajon Rondo – 46.7, 26.3 as a rookie
Steve Nash – 57.4, 29.5 as a rookie
Derrick Rose – 39.3, 28.8 as a rookie
Russell Westbrook – 32.9, 27.5 as a rookie
Ben Gordon – 18.9, 16.3 as a rookie
Brandon Knight – 20.0
Kemba Walker – 23.0

So, while Kemba Walker is on the floor, he assists less than 1/4 of our scores. However, he touches the ball 1/4 of the plays we run while he’s on the floor with a 24.9 usage , highest on the Bobcats. Then you look at his terrible eFG of .415 and cringe. Not only is he not passing the ball, he’s not taking good shots, either. Reminds me of a certain Captain Black Hole we just got rid of. Of course, he wasn’t particularly efficient in college either, or a particularly reknowned distributer. I’m not sure what makes anyone think he can be otherwise.

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 7:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I see where you are coming from.

He will definitely need to become a better distributor. I can’t remember the last team to win a title with a dominant scoring PG. I’m confident he can improve on setting up teammates to score though. He is already good at penetrating the lane and forcing the defense to collapse. Now it’s just a point of finding the open man after the breakdown.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 7:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

You're like Procton and Focus, except they have a semblance of knowledge on their topic.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You're like somebody who knows nothing about basketball..

Because you simply choose to fling insults when you have no merit to your positions.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The merit to your position is no one that plays in a Charlotte uniform

can ever get better.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Certainly not.

I was a Gerald Henderson and a DJ Augustin advocate from the moment we drafted them, even though his struggles.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Yet

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And what makes DJ so different from Walker

In their rookie years?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

aside from vast differences in efficiency?

let’s play a game… kemba walker has started 12 games in the NBA

DJ Augustin started 12 games his rookie year – DJ Augustin played 11 games with Emeka Okafor, 11 games with Raymond Felton and 8 games with Gerald Wallace starting alongside him, you guessed it, the combo guard position. Although, he did play several games with combinations of Adam Morrison, Sean May, DeSagana Diop and Matt Carroll as a the starters.

Interestingly enough, DJ Augustin lead the team in minutes in 9 of those games he started, despite playing for Larry Brown. This is shocking, to me. This is unimportant, just weird.

Here are DJ Augustin’s starting stats.
.467FG% .5343PT% .872FT% 17.8PPG 2.4RPG 5.6APG

Here are Kemba Walker’s starting stats.
.358FG% .4003PT% .800FT% 14.5PPG 5.3RPG 4.3APG

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

You guys really take the numbers

games too far for me to even care to play. It really doesn’t matter to me what happened when so and so started so and so games compared to when so and so started so many games. I understand the want to try to break professional sports down into a science, but it really isn’t. No matter what your numbers say, there isn’t any irrefutable evidence there to guarantee DJ will be a better PG than Walker over the long term. None.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Rookie compared to vet.

Ok.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

you made the initial comparison

whereas i compared exclusively their rookie years initially

Ok.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

And Kemba can't make the same improvements

DJ did, ok.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I already showed

that DJ didn’t “make improvements”, he simply played the way he was asked to – he was a past first guard in high school and his freshman year in college

he moved into the role of combo guard scorer when Kevin Durant left for college and was drafted and utilized as such by Larry Brown

I assume (and I believe Brown actually made some statements regarding this anyway) that he wasn’t impressed enough with DJ’s defense and didn’t play him his second season, despite a fine rookie season.

Magically, DJ played true point again and had little trouble doing so the following year. There was no learning curve, no waiting period, like there is going to be with Kemba. Kemba has only played combo guard.

Sure Kemba can make the improvements and adjustments necessary to play true point, and he’s likely going to have to if he wants to be a mainstay starter in the NBA. But it’s not accurate to say DJ had to make improvements to become a pure point guard.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Augustin also struggled with his shot and confidence his second year.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The eye test?

My head hurts.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not really a game.

It’s a totally reasonable, side-by-side comparison of similar players given similar responsibilities.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Strange...

Augustin was able to score AND distribute more efficiently with similar responsibilities?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Hardly an insult, rather my observance that I have carefully crafted after reading hundreds of adamcawa’s comments.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

it doesn't matter

i don’t take into consideration the opinion’s of those who provide 0 evidence to support their opinion when they make them

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Your evidence is poor and out of context.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

that's your opinion

which again, you fail to back up with any evidence whatsoever

my opinion is backed up by the fact that the numbers i’ve been giving were created by really smart people to provide some imperical evidence to support the same things i’ve actually been using them for

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

furthermore

any evidence is superior to no evidence at all

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but if I don't like yours, I just get to say it's dumb and I win...

Isn’t that how it works?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Just FYI...

That’s ‘empirical.’

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

i'll try to remember that in the future

if i’m ever in a situation on the internet where spelling matters :-D

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha...

It all comes back to credibility, as far as I’m concerned.

Plus, it’s not like I could fairly criticize anybody else’s spelling or grammar if mine weren’t pretty good, right?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

I never took the grammar police initiation test. If this were a forum on Latin, then I could judge your grammar properly.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha...

Something about a career which demands stellar written communication and a bit of an anal-retentive streak will go a long way.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:38 AM EST up reply actions  

see i can be grammar police here

are you trying to say it is what it is, or what is done is done?

either way, there aren’t really shorthand idioms in latin – you need an id and an est somewhere in there

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks.

I knew someone here would help me with my Latin homework

by Aisander D on Feb 7, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

ESPN should hire you.

You would get a lot of hateful comments but getting comments is all that matters there.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Could MP be Skip?

The plot just thickened.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

People do hate when others provide statistical data which undermines their positions.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That's because not everyone in the world is a stat geek.

As I said, science doesn’t win NBA titles.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Some people prefer anecdotal evidence, which is perpetually flawed. According to Wikipedia:

Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be…unreliable due to…non-representative samples of typical cases.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

it's an educated guess

kemba has been consistently the same player he was in college

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

If by the player he was in college you mean the National Player of the Year and the Final Four MVP.

Then yes, he is the same player.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

just curious

which national player of the year award did kemba win?

you must be referring to the bob cousy award, which goes to the nation’s top point guard, not the naismith or ap national player of the year awards

what were you on about with that semblance of knowledge thing, anyway?

jimmer fredette won both of those…. by the by, winning college player of the year awards doesn’t always translate to NBA stardom, as Kenyon Martin, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, TJ Ford and JJ Reddick will tell you

Only one Cousy Award winner (which is relatively young) has even made an All-Star game, Jameer Nelson’s 2009 appearance. So you actually get my point, the Cousy Award hasn’t shown anything to suggest a player will be an elite NBA point guard.

Ultimately? College awards don’t really matter to the NBA, either.

My original point? He was an inefficient scorer and limited passer in college as well.

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And as for Final Four MOP?

Oh, boy. Sean May, Juan Dixon, Mateen Cleaves, Jeff Sheppard, Miles Simon. Great college players who had great runs, sure, but geez. Plenty of floatsam there.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Carmelo Anthony, and Isaiah Thomas.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

just curious

how does this relate to college player of the year or final four most outstanding player awards not necessarily translating to nba success?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, adam!

It doesn’t.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

What will happen if exactly what we are seeing now is the truth?

You’re the one hoping for a change.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're exaggerating the "hope" part a little bit.

We “hope” Tyrus can get his head on straight and play like he should, but it’s been years and that doesn’t look to ever change. We’re “expecting” Bismack to continue to get better with more playing time. We’re “hoping” all of that improvement we’re “expecting” will lead up to him being one of the best big men on defense that the league has seen in recent memory.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't read this comment section.

I know Procton/Focus is trolling this Biyombo post and I know I won’t have the self-control to stop myself from responding.

Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/#!/RoflConnor

by Panthers FTW on Feb 6, 2012 7:15 AM EST reply actions  

Lol, Focus is

Waiting for Biz to have a bad game before he responds here.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 9:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i really cant understand why their doing it..

or maybe, they are the cousin of Mr crabby mentality? just askin.

The ball is round so is the rim and the world. anything can happen if you play hard.

by tanduay5years on Feb 6, 2012 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

Some people just

Love to embrace that “me against the world” mentality, even when it’s unnecessary.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 7:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Because they haven't been very good?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Who has?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

This isn't a very specific question...

But LeBron’s been pretty good this year.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm referring to every rookie

Picked after ours.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

MarShon Brooks has been better than either.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

And who else?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol. Well I guess Im going to need you to define better.

Judging from their stats, you classifying them as better is more of a personal thing than anything. Those aren’t two players I would say are clearly better.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i would argue that

they are contributing at or more than what is expected of them at their position as rookies in the nba

morris is shooting over .500 from the three and rebounds well

leuer rebounds and blocks and has had some fine scoring games

we all know what leonard has done

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Listen man.

If you want Jon Leuer, a poor man’s Byron Mullens, be my guess.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s you and Focus against every other member of the site right now. That can’t speak volumes about your opinions. Just sayin.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

And adamcawa...

It’s also three people being rational and realistic against delusional fans on a fan blog. Not all that shocking.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 6, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions  

MP you never answered my post up there. I know I basically destroyed your entire hypocritical troll persona but its rude to ignore me.

by CatNation on Feb 6, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

to an extent

i hardly agree with you or focus

at least you provide rational arguments to most everything you post that isn’t cam newton related

but we have agreed about kemba since before the draft and he’s done nothing to change my opinion

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Unless you’re being overly negative, you’re unrealistic.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 6, 2012 11:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

When the evidence before you leads you to doubt in the positive outcome of whatever you're hoping for...

Yeah, absolutely.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

What about the evidence that leads you to believe in the positive outcome?

What if I am optimistic about Kemba because he has dropped 20+ points five times? What if I am optimistic about Kemba because he recorded a triple double in one of those 20 point games? What if I’m optimistic about Kemba shooting 54% from 3 point range over his last ten games?

What if I’m optimistic about Biz because he’s scored in double figures three times already even though he was supposed to be as raw as they come offensively? What if I am optimistic about Biz because he has two double doubles, and recorded a double double in his only start? What if I am optimistic about Biyombo because he is among the league leaders in block rate already?

Does that make me delusional?

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

You may or may not know how statistics work...

But when an experiment is run multiple times, and the results vary, you go with the one that happens more often. In this case, that’d happen to be their poor performances. You’re hoping to rely on the outliers.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Here's what I'm doing

I’m hoping that the multiple outliers are indicative what they are capable of as they become more comfortable at the NBA level and become more consistent.

I do this because I expect our rookies to improve, as players usually don’t peak in their rookie season.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I have the list open if you want me to keep moving toward the present, but...

Shane Battier, Darius Miles, Marc Jackson, Chris Mihm, Courtney Alexander, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca, and Eddie Griffin (all members of All-Rookie teams just between 99 and 01) disagree with this face:

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I see that list as well

And during that same time period I see Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Jason Williams, Mike Bibby, Antawn Jamison, Cuttino Mobley, Elton Brand, Steve Francis, Lamar Odom, Andre Miller, Shawn Marion, Ron Artest, Jason Terry, Mike Miller, Kenyon Martin, Hedo Turkoglu, Pau Gasol, Jason Richardson, Tony Parker, Andrei Kirilenko, Richard Jefferson, and Joe Johnson.

And then there are the players that didn’t even make the All-Rookie teams like:
Dirk Nowitzki, Al Harrington, Rashard Lewis, Baron Davis, Richard Hamilton, Corey Maggette, Jamal Crawford, Michael Redd, Tyson Chandler, Zach Randolph, Gerald Wallace, Gilbert Arenas and Mehmet Okur.

Please note I said “usually”, not “always.” Cherry picking examples that go against the norm does not prove anything.

by JDeLong42 on Feb 7, 2012 1:43 AM EST up reply actions  

When I'm able to pull up eight examples out of a sample of 30 (27%)...

That’s hardly “cherry-picking.”

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Procton is the kinda guy who wont be proven wrong until the players themselves prove him wrong.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 6, 2012 11:06 PM EST reply actions  

thankfully for him

the players usually prove him right (unless their name is Cam Newton)

by adamcawa on Feb 6, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Like Julius Peppers.

Boy, did I catch hell for not liking him. Yet here he is, tied for 18th over the last two years in sacks, behind such luminaries as Jason Babin, Chris Clemons, and Cliff Avril.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

i have no interest

in how wrong or right you are about NFL players on an NBA blog other than a passing mention of cam newton in jest

ya’ll really should keep that stuff at csr or whever u nfl blog at

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha...

I was just pointing out a relatively famous SBN/Observer reference that I imagined some would be familiar with.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Lmao. Exactly.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And is still one

Of the only active players on defense almost guaranteed a Hall of fame spot.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Because nothing says "Hall of Famer" like a guy who rarely tries and can't produce at the level of other, less-talented players.

You sure seem to put a lot on misguided media opinions.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

The misguided media are the ones that vote players into the Hall of Fame.

Duh!!!!

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, you have correctly interpreted the written word.

Count me impressed.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I for one continue to believe Peppers is an overrated bum.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

(That's because he is.)

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

When their initial proof suggests I am right...

yes, I’d suggest I’m on the high ground.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

You know who also hated rookies who couldn't contribute to their level of expected awesome?

We all know who he’s rooting for in these debates.

If you disagree with my opinion, I will take it personal and hate you forever.

by Panthers FTW on Feb 7, 2012 1:09 AM EST reply actions  

This.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Hell, he also hated rookies who COULD contribute at their level of expected awesome.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Lol. That's Larry for ya.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Honestly I blame this on Cam Newton

Cam Newton effect…people see him dominate right out of the gate and expect the same from every rookie. Development and growth are meaningless because we’ve now seen that its possible to be elite from the get-go.

Its annoying but its a tradeoff I’ll take every time

its kinda sad because people like adam and MP get so vested in their positions that they start to root for guys on the team to fail so they can be right on the internet. Don’t let that happen guys…be fans.

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

Lol. Agreed.

Though Adam doesn’t really come off as the type to hope for failure. He is the kind of pessimist I can deal with because he does hope and see the potential for players to do we, as opposed to the other two who have their minds made up already regardless.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 9:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i will never and have never

rooted for ANYONE to fail

i truly hope, for the Bobcats’ sake, that Kemba and Biz both turn out to be fine professionals

but the evidence is almost overwhelming that they (particularly kemba) won’t … Bismack has shown consistent improvement, actually, and the only reason Michael is still arguing against him is because he likes to get under people’s skins, just like ya’ll keep arguing with him about Cam Newton. Focus, on the other hand, truly believes that Biz is a failure

the point being, when both or even one of these guys turns out to be a bust, i’m not gonna run on these forums and say I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO – i wouldn’t have made a post about why it’s still ok to be optimistic if that were the case

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

you dont have overwhelming evidence of anything. you have a quarter-season sample of a couple rookies

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

In a lockout season at that.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

and three previous years of college

but if you can provide examples of players that played a specific style or even position for three or more years in college and then had success at a totally different position while using a different skillset in the pros, i’d listen

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Rod Strickland average 3.5 ast at DePaul and 3.9 his rookie season and became a double digit assist player and one of the highest all time in your glorious ast% stat

theres plenty of players like that who were in the 3-5 range in assists in college and became solid NBA true PGs

currently in the league: Rondo, Bdiddy, Harris, Mo Williams, Hinrich(more of a combo I guess), Lowry, Westbrook, Billups etc etc etc

you make it sound like he was some 2apg chucker in college, but he wasnt

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

this doesn't mean or prove anything

first, the challenge was to pick players who were asked to play different positions in college or positions that utilized considerably different skillsets after 3 or more years of college

Rod Strickland was a first team all american averaging 7.8 assists per game as a junior playing PG.

Rajon Rondo not only played PG, he didn’t play 3 seasons with UK, disqualifying him from your list in 2 regards. Devin Harris did play 3 seasons and averaged 4.4 assists in his junior year. However, he certainly didn’t play a lot of offguard at Wisconsin. Mo Williams declared pro after his sophmore year, but lead his team in assists both years, meaning he was the primary distributor. Lowry? Two seasons. He’s the closest thing to a combo guard, but he also wasn’t counted on to be the team’s primary scorer. Wesbrook, 2 seasons, led his team in assists the only year of those two he started. Billups, 5.1 assists in his 2 seasons at Colorado.

Hinrich is the closest thing to a combo guard on this list, but his sophmore and junior years he played exclusively true point. So he was able to play both coming out of college. He’s also played combo guard in the NBA far less than he’s played true point.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I blame basketball reference for failing on Stricklands college stats if they are indeed wrong http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stricro02.html

the 2 yr vs 3 yr thing is kind of a douchey thing to get butthurt over, it makes no difference

and Kemba led UConn is assists his last 2 years the only year he didnt was his freshman year where he came off the bench

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

that one year makes a big difference

since most players don’t play too often in their freshmen years unless they play for John Calipari

so players with two full college seasons of a particular play style, or more, are logically less likely to be able to alter their games

not to mention, i’m not “butthurt” over it, just proving that you are the one who actually has no semblance of knowledge about what you’re talking

although, indeed, basketball-reference clearly has some kind of glitch there, since the ast per game numbers don’t even match up with the number of assists and games they show

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

so what would you have preferred to see Kemba do in college? Not lead the team in assists his last 2 yrs? Not lead them in scoring? Not win the national title? I don’t see the problem

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I would have preferred to see him play as a true PG who looked to distribute and make teammates better.

I mean, if we’re talking about a guy who we drafted to be a PG anyway.

And P.S.: Ain’t many 6’0 SGs running around the league.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

But he led his team in assists and they won the national title. how much better can he make them look than champions?

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

so let me try and get this clear

Kemba Walker leads his team to a championship
MP: I don’t care if he won, winning doesn’t matter because he didnt get 8APG!

Cam Newton has the greatest statistical season of any rookie QB ever.
MP: Statistics don’t matter because he didn’t win enough games.

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Never ends.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

How did you come to the conclusion

That I said everything he post is nonsense. If you check my history, there have been dozens of times where I have agreed with him on certain things, even during debates. Posting things, whether factual or not, irrelevant to a situation isn’t some debate tactic I’m interested in and will call him out when he’s introducing irrelevant information to the discussion. You call it nonsense, I call it sticking to the script.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

it came from observing that

you respond more to his posts than anyone else, even when his posts seem infallable in their logic

as much as he posts rediculous posts, you respond to things that shouldn’t be argued

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

As I said, this is a post I created.

Seeing you support the madman one second and then realize how crazy he truly is two lines down is what’s perplexing. But whatever. If you feel the need to ride with him so much on everything, call Cam Newton a bust as well. After all, he is backing up his statements with facts right?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i support opinions

when it’s warranted and you made my point for me

just because he has crazy points and is, as you say, a madman, doesn’t mean his good points are wrong

regarding cam newton – i think i’ve been perfectly clear that i base my opinions on whatever side has more support… saying cam newton is a bad player simply because he didn’t make a terrible team a winning team in his first season is absolutely contrary to the overwhelming amount of evidence that says he IS indeed a good QB

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

just like

there is considerably more evidence that kemba is going to be a bust than not

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

You make it sound though as if this

evidence makes it a sure thing, and with you being a fan of the team it surprises me to see you write him off as quickly as you have. Overly impressive? No. Shown flashes of being decent? Yes. You say that his ceiling is Ben Gordon, but keep in mind Ben Gordon was what, the 3rd pick in his draft? And you’re telling me Ben Gordon can’t contribute on a championship team. Maybe Kemba’s best bet is coming off the bench. Either way, he would be an effective player. We probably could’ve found a “starter” to plug into a spot because there was no one else there to play it in this draft, but I don’t see what’s so bad about having an effective player on the squad.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 8, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm not writing him off

Ben Gordon was just the comparison because they are similar style players from the same school. I’m sure I can find a more reasonable comparison.

Being as optimistic as I can, I would say a shorter Jamal Crawford? Except I can’t see him scoring as easily against shooting guards in the NBA.

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

of course

this is all based on him actually not being able to mold his game to better fit his physical attributes as a pure point guard

he still has time to do that, but everytime he dribbles down the shot clock to poorly set up his teammates, or shoots a long jumper a few seconds IN to the shot clock when he has two teammates on his wings (happened twice last night), I cringe

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Walker’s style of play directly correlates to his ability to lead an NBA team to success as a 6’1" player.

Newton’s statistical accomplishments obviously had little, if any, correlation to his ability to lead an NFL team to success. Despite it all, he finished 6-10 as a starter and was never in the playoff chase.

I fail to see the disconnect.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

His Pure PG rating was a very mediocre 1.8.

Jon Scheyer, despite being considerably less physically gifted, had a 4.29 PPR in leading his team to a national title. So, yeah, that’s how much better he could have made them look: about 240% better.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not a logical argument

UConn wouldn’t have sniffed the title with Scheyer in Kemba’s place. The pure PG rating doesn’t mean Player A is better than Player B, it’s just one statistic to support one area of being a PG. And the 240% better statement is ridiculous.

6 feet of Smooth

by Bring Back Primoz on Feb 8, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say he was a better player.

I said a higher rating in that regard would have said more about his ability to be an NBA PG.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 12, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

what i would prefer

is for the Bobcats not to have drafted Kemba Walker altogether – I mean, his “winning attitude” has really shined this season, right?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

So you expect your rants on this site to change that?

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 5:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

no - i expect not to get grief

for not licking the bumhole of the bobcats organization and claiming hallelujah at every move they make

guess what, kemba sucks as a 9th pick, he’s gonna suck as a pro, and he’ll have little impact on the bobcats future success, if we even have any

live with it

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

My only thing with it is, the draft was INSANELY weak.

Meaning that picking up quality role players is a success.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe he will be

but the consensus opinion before the draft was that we were gonna end up with 2 quality starters

not to mention, we don’t really know how “weak” a draft is until at least 3 seasons afterwards

plenty of drafts have been touted as weak that turned out to be great and vice versa

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

And if we were not going to end up with at LEAST a quality starter...

Why trade up to do so?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

And that's all in your opinion.

Once you stop treating that as facts, then it’ll be easier to take you serious. Funny you call anyone disagreeing with you giving you “grief”. Lol. Whatever dude. It’s also your opinion Fredette is an all star caliber player. That’s some of the most ridiculous crap I’ve heard in years, but how much “grief” did I give you over that. It’s so easy to label someone a homer for being optimistic about the players on their rosters. It’s why I think Tyrus Thomas is worth his contract, why Diop is one of the better big men in the league, why Boris should get a max contract this year because of his amazing skillet. Oh wait. I don’t believe that. Funny, I thought I treated everything Bobcats as golden. If you take a look up at my thread, which was about BISMACK anyway, you would see me pointing out the strengths AND weaknesses in his game, and I’ve been doing the same for Kemba. Funny how you easily pass over the responses I write saying that Kemba does need to work on his passing, or I can’t remember the last team that won a title with a shoot first point without mentioning a word, but the second I show any kind of fan like support to him, it’s me nutriding everything he does. Come the hell on.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Jimmer Fredette

has a better chance than Kemba Walker of making an All-Star game one day in his career

I didn’t say he was an All-Star caliber player, but that he had the potential to make an All-Star game. That doesn’t imply that he’ll be a perennial All-Star, but given that he’s a white guard who can score from a lot of places, he’ll become a fan favorite and increase his chances dramatically of being an All-Star.

BTW, he’s a more efficient scorer as a rookie than Kemba is, playing a very similar role on offense, albeit not starting.

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Ok.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 8, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL...

I remember that was the kind of attitude that May and Morrison and Felton and even Okafor were supposed to ride to the NBA promised land.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of poor decisions back then are coming back to bite us now.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

The only bad "decision" we made without retroactive analysis was passing up Paul for Felton and May.

That was always the wrong move, but they somehow thought they’d sell tickets in perpetuity just by having UNC players on the roster.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

He had terribly low assist rates and a bad pure point rating.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

excuse my ignorance

but what is a bad point rating? or a point rating in general?

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Why...you should check the FanPosts!

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I really believe Biyombo will never be more than about a 8-8-2 guy on a regular basis, even at his peak.

Out of a #7 pick we traded up to get, that’s a failure.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, he is a failure based on your beliefs.

Cool story.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

and just because

i’m not blindly optimistic against my own better judgement does NOT mean i’m not a fan

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes it does.

Blind faith is the only way to go! It’s like religion.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm absolutely rooting for every member of the Bobcats...

But the evidence shows me that that will be a futile cause.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

but that just means i’ll be less upset when they peform exactly how i expect them to

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I really wish we could all just stop debating this sh** for the rest of the season. Then make judgements, but we’re not nearly sane enough to do so.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:21 PM EST reply actions  

actually

i’m willing to count next season as Kemba’s rookie season because of the weird season this has been

i’m willing to wager, though, that his second season stats won’t be remakable either and won’t stand out against other premier point guards stats

but we’ll have to wait and see!

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Better delete this soon CatNation.

Adamcawa will attack you, calling it an anomaly…

"With the third pick of the 2006 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select, Adam Morrison, Gonzaga."

by FirstCat on Feb 7, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't "attack" anyone

in fact, considering all of this was started because people jumped all over me for calling kemba a bust, i’d say i was the one being “attacked” – except I don’t count reasoned debate an attack

i do count insults as an attack, like that CatNation guy, but i think i’ve sufficiently shown he has no idea what he’s talking about

as far as this assist goes, i admitted i didn’t watch this game (the only game of teh season i didn’t watch), and had no idea it existed because a look at the play by play showed that kemba didn’t get any assists to reggie williams – scorer’s error i suppose

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

*as far as the assist goes

it was a good pass that i expect a PG to make, i hope he makes more of them

it was also in the fast break, which is where he should be excelling and needs to navigate more often

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

all you have sufficiently shown is that you can take a bunch of irrelevant statistics of a small sample size and incorrectly apply them to a faulty argument that a 9th overall pick is a bust 20 games into his career because he isn’t tearing up the league

but other than that you did a fine job lmao

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean you’ve convinced so many people that we all hate Kemba now and think he’s a giant bust don’t we guys?

MP: yeah!

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

my goal was never to convince anyone of anything

except that you’re an idiot

given the number of times i’ve discounted anything you’ve posted as incorrect and faulty, i think i’ve done a decent job of that

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

he actually believes this

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I do. I would imagine a casual observer would to

if they took the time to read through the threads.

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

then why has nobody stepped up to agree with you except MP the local troll?

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

i guess we’re all idiots :(

sorry guys

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

the same reason i don't step up to agree with other people

i have no reason to interject myself into other people’s arguments, and if i do, it’s solely for the purpose of trying to make someone laugh

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

i mean how often do yo usee people respond randomely to posts

saying things like YOU’RE RIGHT or you sure showed focus, MP!

the only time people generally respond here is to disagree with someone or offer a counterpoint

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

uhh you and MP have been doing it to each other this entire thread and everyone else is loling at you two

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm glad you speak for the general public

i hope they know that you’ve chosen to be their ambassador, as i’m about to start trolling the many innacurate posts that you’ve made making yourself look like you don’t know what you’re talking about

which is exactly what you accused me of doing without actually providing any evidence

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 7, 2012 11:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

please prove

how the statistics i’ve used are irrelevent, how 3.5 years is a small sample size, or how they have been incorrectly applied to an argument that a top 9 player should be a top player in the league

although, i have admitted on more than one occasion that calling him a bust this early is unfair, and the only reason i’ve said it since then was to make things fit into a neat little package that my point is that i’m confident he will actually turn out to be a bust, which isn’t very distinguishable from saying he is a bust, hence the lack of clarification

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

3 years, where 2 of them he led his team in assists and in 1 ended up winning a championship with only 1 other real NBA caliber talent on his roster (who was a freshman), and 24 NBA games, barely a QUARTER of a real NBA season.

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

tho I must say that title game totally sucked ass due to the lack of talent

by CatNation on Feb 7, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

the more emphasis

you put on kemba’s college career, the more you prove my point for me, so thanks for that

by adamcawa on Feb 7, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

John Scheyer outperformed Walker in college as a true PG.

Where is he now? Or was it the dynamic duo of Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek who propelled him to success?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I know.

I see no reason why he, Scheyer, and Zoubek can’t be on a bench. Well, yes I can. It’s that addiction to upside issue. But all three, despite their limitations, have directly translatable NBA skills. Scheyer has his shooting and decision-making, Zoubek has offensive rebounding, shotblocking, and height, and Thomas has rebounding and toughness.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Thomas is probably the worst prospect of the three.

I think if there had been legit summer league/training camps you might have seen Scheyer land a spot, at least. Lance has been lucky in the D-League, and he’s put up decent numbers there. Also, everyone in the D-League loves him because he “plays the right way, hustles, and is a great teammate.” (I hate cliches and non-starter descriptors, but in this case I’ll make an exception).

by Aisander D on Feb 8, 2012 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha...

Coming out of Duke does train you to, umm, play the right way.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 8, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions  

No way. One play pretty much defines NBA success.

Look for Shelden Williams on the next All-NBA First Team after winning the dunk contest at the All-Star Game.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Boy, that was really bad.

Did you have that one on queue, or did you find it?

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 7, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It was linked on the side of your original video.

But also, it’s not too hard to find a Shelden Williams getting dunked on in the NBA vid. They grow like wild flowers. If he got more playing time, he could be the new Yao Ming (in terms of people wanting to dunk on him). You’ve gotta emasculate the guy with the hot wife whenever you can.

by Aisander D on Feb 8, 2012 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I know...

That’s why I wondered how hard you had to look.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 8, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I also found....

THIS.

God I wish for his sake he had been picked in the mid-20s of that draft. That would have made a lot more sense.

by Aisander D on Feb 8, 2012 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm still kind of confused as to why he hasn't done better.

He was extraordinarily productive over his last two years.

Hi, my name is Michael Procton, and I will mindf*** you with logical yet (often) pessimistic retorts until the cows come home. Good Day.
--by Aisander D on Feb 4, 2012 7:59 PM EST
I gotta stop takin' my baths durin' Peter's shenanigans.

by MichaelProcton on Feb 8, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm not sure either.

I always had the feeling that when he was stacked up against athletically superior guys who had equally big bodies, he just couldn’t hang. But I have little proof to back that up, and I can think of few examples while he was playing at Duke where that was the case.

by Aisander D on Feb 8, 2012 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

this was honestly

the funniest thing i’ve seen in awhile

by adamcawa on Feb 8, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

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