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Around SBN: Kentucky Basketball: Where the Wildcats Stand as of Today

Will Corey Maggette Be A Hindrance?

In June, Corey Maggette spoke with the media via conference call a few days after being traded to the Charlotte Bobcats.

Asked about his role on a team that looked to be developing youth, Maggette said he would embrace the role as the veteran leader.

I think it's a great opportunity, and when you're an older guy, I think it's your duty to actually be a leader, depending on if the coach asks you, but you're obligated to do that. You're obligated to lead because you have these younger guys that need the guidance. Like with Gerald, this is definitely a guy that needs guidance and he has the potential, as well as Kemba, D.J. and Bismack - you have to be a leader to help those guys. - Bobcats.com

That's beautiful. But it also doesn't mean anything if his actions don't back up his words or he misunderstands the role he needs to take.

And if he is given the offensive reins as Bobcats Head Coach Paul Silas has said, Maggette could be a major impediment to the development of this team's young core.

Star-divide

"We're going to rely on him to get it done for us, and he can." - Paul Silas

WARNING WARNING WARNING

That scares me a little. Yes, Corey Maggette is talented enough to drive an offense. But the Bobcats shouldn't rely on his scoring at every necessary turn.

In developing young players and a young team, they must be given the ball and forced to learn to fly in the tough situations on the court. With every failure or success, they gain more experience until they hopefully adjust or become consistent and come into their own.

If you give the keys to the offense to Corey Maggette and say "Hey, we're relying on you to score all the points ever, k?", you may be endangering the young players' development. They miss out on vital experience and you may be left with perhaps a couple more wins for a team that is sure to end up somewhere in the lottery.

Maggette will undoubtedly feel the need to take over in big situations. He will be best scorer on this team without a doubt. But it will be up to Silas to help Maggette understand that unless he lets the young guys have their hand at gaining invaluable court experience, he will never have the talent around him in Charlotte that will help them win more in the future if he hopes to stay and help this team become better as a veteran leader.

Further, Maggette is notoriously stingy with the ball on offense, sporting a shocking 11.3% AST% (estimated percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while on the court). For comparison's sake, Stephen Jackson had an AST% of 18.4% last year. Unless Maggette makes a drastic change in his game, it doesn't look like he can help the young guys with effective ball distribution.'

I'm not saying Maggette should be relegated to not taking shots at all, but his role needs to be limited to engender an environment that can foster growth of the Bobcats Youth Movement (trademark pending).

This team is not a playoff squad, nor should it be. Corey Maggette may be the best offensive option the Bobcats have, but he cannot dominate possessions like he has in the past. It's up to Silas to define this role and to Maggette to accept or reject it.

"We've got to get these young guys to understand this system of basketball. They didn't play summer league, so they don't really understand illegal defense and things like that," Maggette said.

"It's kind of up to me, and Paul and Stephen, to get the team together to do the things we need to do." - CO

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HA!

I like Maggette. And I think he’s a good second option or 6th man on a CONTENDER. But Its time to Amnesty him. Think about the finances. I kinda wanna see who’s getting cut from their teams but this should be a no brainer. Who cares about games being exciting or close if you still lose. We are going to lose. So we might as well use this as an opportunity to let the young guys and FA pickups learn to play together. And we can analyze from there. Amnesty Maggette…

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 12:17 AM EST reply actions  

You're totally right...

We should amnesty Maggette because who cares if we lose by 2 or 50? If I’m paying good hard earned money for a ticket, who cares if we lose by 2 or 50?

by jkp1516 on Dec 8, 2011 2:15 AM EST up reply actions  

My sarchasm detector is off today.

I can’t tell if you are being serious or not. Really, I agree with what you said — it doesn’t matter if we lose by 2 or lose by 50. Both count the same in the loss column. This isn’t the NCAA where you can have a close loss count.

by Tim Rudisill on Dec 8, 2011 3:15 AM EST up reply actions  

7-59

is still 7-59 whether we score 70 points a night or 90 points a night

after two months, no one’s gonna go to the games regardless, especially with our horrible schedule

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll go to a few later in the season if Bismack's playing

Watching him, Walker, and Hendo play together is the entertainment value for this season.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions  

die hard fans will always go

but even i didn’t renew my season tickets (although i can now get them at a discounted price and still might) because of the lockout

die hard fans, however, don’t sell out games unless you’re in a major market city

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm guessing this is serious sarchasm!

And I agree with him. Professional sports are also entertainment and if I’m shelling out money for season tickets, I don’t want to see them get drubbed every night. At least being competitive is nice, and I don’t think Maggette is netting us too many more W’s.

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 8, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Bingo.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

by jkp1516 on Dec 9, 2011 5:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think we need to look at a few realities of the Amnesty Clause

A contract isn’t voided for an “amnesty” player. Their salaries are paid in full. Cutting say 14 million from salary towards the cap allows us to spend 14 million more without paying the luxury tax. However, cutting Maggs’ 14 million from cap considerations and then going out and spending 14 million on other players means you’re spending 28 million total. That 28 million is exactly what a team would pay if they were 14 million over the cap today.

I know the above statement may be a little confusing, but the point is that the amnesty clause makes sense if it helps a team get under the salary cap to keep from paying the luxury tax. Using the amnesty clause, however, doesn’t save any money for a team that’s already under the cap. If the Bobcats cut Maggette and then spend the total of his salary on other players, they’re essentially imposing a luxury tax on themselves (and giving Maggs a free ride while they’re at it). It just doesn’t make sense.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm fairly certain

we only have to pay maggette is no one bids on him, which is far more likely to happen than with diop or carroll

I estimate teams would be willing to pay him 10 million, forcing us to only pay him 4 million and giving us 10 million more in cap space

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:50 AM EST up reply actions  

what

that magette can’t get 10 million a year from someone????

i can pretty much guaruntee it

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

ok

if we amnesty corey magette and he doesn’t get at least 10 million from someone, i’ll pay you 100 dollars

you pay me 100 in all other scenarios, ok?

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

all other scenarios?

Ha

If Magette gets 10 million from another team in the case that an amnesty clause is used. Yes, you will win the bet in that scenario.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Bingo

Amnesty is for 2 reasons:

1) Get under luxury tax
2) Free up money to sign other free agents

Neither will apply to us so it makes more sense to not amnesty anyone and let them play out the season. Having said that, I would bet they use the amnesty next summer on Maggette or Diop because you’re only buying out one season and if we do indeed land a high pick, we might want to spend some extra cash to fill some other holes next year.

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 8, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

If you guys cut him you may be lucky to get 80 PPG

Who will score for you? Kemba and who?

RIP Al Davis

by dubzfan on Dec 8, 2011 12:24 AM EST reply actions  

Who cares...

if we are going to lose, we are going to lose. BUT cutting Maggette give us the option of adding 14million worth of players who will score. Plus at least ONE amnesty victim thats pretty good will likely be picked up. Look at how far Hendo, Kemba, DJ, Tyrus will be behind in development if we wait til Maggette leaves. 2 extra years. Thats not good.

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Well then you end up likely overpaying guys this year to just score slightly more and still lose

Cut him next year when you have a high pick and then you will have money to go with it

RIP Al Davis

by dubzfan on Dec 8, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

You dont have to overpay

you’ll just have more going into free agency in the offseason. And it is packed. Overspending is a choice.

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Dec 9, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

Kemba, DJ, Hendo, Tyrus, Matt Carroll

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 7:21 AM EST up reply actions  

There are no primetime scorers on our roster,

but still enough talent to the point we won’t be the worst team in history. We probably won’t even be the worse team in the league.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Dec 9, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually think...

people will be surprised when they see us. I guess I just have more faith in in our players than most.

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what fans said about the Panthers last year

And we ended up 2-14. Fans are biased and looking through rose colored glasses. Objectively, we are going to stink, plain and simple.

by jkp1516 on Dec 9, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

we are going to stink, though

we’ll struggle to remain competitive this season and maybe next if mj doesn’t pull the trigger on something

however, the plus we’ll be that we get to see Kemba, Biz amd Hendo develop with considerable playing time

by adamcawa on Dec 9, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

We'll be competitive and fall just short some games...and outright lose others...

Not saying we’ll be playoff contenders…just saying we’ll be fun to watch…expecially as our youth develop

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd rather

be a bottom five team… then trade our pick for two picks later in the draft, since the draft is so deep

but that would also depend on how well certain players develop and what holes we need to fill

by adamcawa on Dec 9, 2011 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not usually a fan of this philosophy.

It’s usually harder to get one really good player on your team than it is to get two good players.

by Tim Rudisill on Dec 9, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

goes against BPA

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 10, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

It's a solid strategy in that it gives you 2 chances to land a good player

It can also blow up in your face since the true top level talent is often gone after the first 5 picks.

Looking back, would we rather have Chris Paul or Felton and May?

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 10, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

It's pretty obvious you never want to trade back in an NBA draft.

Elite talent is rarely, if ever, found past the first few picks. Trading back for two picks in the teens doesn’t help when your team is craving an elite type talent.

by Panthers FTW on Dec 10, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

perhaps you're right

although in my scenario, i was specifically talking about trading 1 high pick for 2 more lottery picks the same year

by adamcawa on Dec 10, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

According to focus.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Dec 10, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

How dare you question his reporting skills dont you know he is the best damn insider we got

by TS BOBCAT on Dec 10, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The rest of this said " best damn reporter we got" But of course my attempt at being funny back fired.

story of my life :(

by TS BOBCAT on Dec 10, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It's all the same.

I'm gonna live forever, I'm never gonna die. The only thing I fear is I'm never gonna fly.

by Charlotte Bobcat on Dec 11, 2011 8:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

chris paul

but i’d settle for andrew bynum or danny granger or david lee or francisco garcia or channing frye or ronny turiaf or monta ellis…

by adamcawa on Dec 10, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean if `

we could get Garcia, I dont see why we would keep Maggette. I just hope some more players get Amnestied. Like Salmons or Marvin Williams

by focuslja on Dec 10, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

that's not what i meant

someone said wouldn’t i rather have chris paul than felton/may and i responded

of course i would, but if i could have 2 players after chris paul then i would rather have any two of hte players i listed

essentially

by adamcawa on Dec 11, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

the point obviously being

a – it’s not fair to compare how our draft turned out when we could’ve done a lot better and

b – you can get some really great players later in the draft

by adamcawa on Dec 11, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The point was...

If the higher pick comes with less risk, then a single pick can be more valuable than 2 riskier picks.

A Chris Paul in the hand is worth more than Felton and May in the bush.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 11, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

i'd prefer to cut him this year

than watch his value depreciate over the course of this season because he doesn’t have anyone around him to take pressure off of him and he ends up shooting .300 .

his expiring won’t be worth trading for and amnestying him will fail because no one’s gonna pay anywhere near 10 million for him

there’s a chance he’ll perform ably this season and could even increase his value, but the odds are his value only declines as he ages another season

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 1:19 AM EST reply actions  

I agree

Its no need to cut him when he’s an expiring. I say stack money. Its more valuable to use it now bc we have to have as much as we need if we plan on makin a splash in next year’s big free agent class

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand the depreciating value argument for Maggs

He’s pretty one dimensional, but as a scorer, he’s fairly effecient. His FG% isn’t super impressive or anything, but it’s not awful either. He earns his scratch at the charity stripe, and he does it as well as anyone in the league. That really boosts his efficiency.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 8:41 AM EST up reply actions  

if he bombs this season

then he’ll be worth less, period

it may not happen, but he hasn’t been the “go to guy” in years (if ever in reality?) and he’s only gotten older… thankfully it’s only 66 games, but 66 games playing a lot of minutes and being asked to carry a lot of weight can put a toll on someone (ask gerald wallace)

he could very well have an all star season, but which scenario is more likely?

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

He's been pretty steady except for last season

Last season is an abberation in that Maggette is the exact opposite of a Scott Skiles kind of player. He had no chance on that team. Most people saw that disaster coming. Even so, his effeciency has been solid

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

yep

steadily injured, steadily missing threes and steadily turning the ball over

on a totally different note, people have been saying the bobcats won’t be as exciting without magette, but i don’t see what’s so exciting about taking a bunch of mid range jumpers and shooting free throws?

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Haha

Just realized that these are the words you use to describe the player you bet would fetch 10 million a season off the amnesty waivers.

Too bad we won’t amnesty Maggette. I sure could use that $100.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 11, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

i said that

not based on maggette’s skill set or tenure, but based on the contracts he has received in the past and the current contracts in the NBA

and judging by the contracts that some players got, i still don’t think i’d be too far off

by adamcawa on Dec 11, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone would pick him up for

4 or 5 tho. So it would still be smart for us to Amnesty him now. Because whether or not fans know it, Dwight, CP3 and Kevin Martin will be moved whether its together or separate. I think in those transactions, alot of players will be tossed from team to team. We need to get in on that bc there will be some young players available. I actually thinkin that our FO is waiting on the dust to settle on the bigger names before we pull off some moves. Bc we still need a couple centers. Reggie Williams is as good as signed…

by focuslja on Dec 11, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Sigh.

It’s common knowledge at this point it’s Diop who will be getting amnestied. All sign point towards it, most people see it as painfully obvious, why is there even debate. I can think of way more pros than I can for keeping Diop around.

by Panthers FTW on Dec 8, 2011 2:38 AM EST reply actions  

Do how is it common knowledge that Diop will be amnestied?

If we don’t sign Brown…Diop is the only C on the team unless you’re suggesting we just play small ball all year…

Who is to say we don’t just hold that amnesty and see what happens as the season starts rolling?

No one can say for certain what is going to happen until after tomorrow.

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 7:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Also...if we do amnesty him...

…who will sign him?
We’ll be more likely paying him close to what he’s making right now to not play.
If we amnesty someone who has a chance of signing somewhere else…we aren’t paying out as much cash.

Does it not make more sense for us to amnesty someone who will get picked up so we are free on cap space AND we are not paying but a fraction of what we owe them?

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 7:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Nobody gets amnestied

Unless we’re going on a signing spree (not likely), it’s pointelss for this season. If we don’t need the cap room, and we have to pay Diop/Maggette either way, they might as well play. Both can contribute.

by djwilliams11 on Dec 8, 2011 7:49 AM EST up reply actions  

if we don't use it now

then there isn’t much reason to use it at all

while there are some pretty good centers out there this season, and there could be some good players getting amnestied, i don’t think we should go out and spend a whole lot this season, however, setting us up for next season, when there could potentially be a boatload of free agents, is more important

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

im sure someone will bid on him

for about 3 million… leaving us to still owe him 6 million

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Big men are hard to find...

Someone will take him…

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea but for really cheap

That’s my point. Why let some other team pay only a fraction of his salary ( I think 3 million is an over estimate of what a team bids) to get his services when we pay the majority of it for no benefit?

It would make sense to cut Diop if we expected someone to bid 5 mil on him, but then again, if he was good enough to fetch a bid that high, we probably wouldn’t want to cut him int he first place.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

that's the reason i DONT want to amnesty diop

i think it’s far more likely that someone pay magette 7 million than someoen to pay diop 4 million (leavin us to pay only 3 million in either scenario)

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

and im confident

someone will pay magette closer to 10 million than most people realize

i like magette and id be happy with him as a bobcat, don’t get me wrong… i just think he brings more value to the team as an amnesty victim

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

You were just talking about his value depreciating weren't you?

What team with enough cap room to spend 10 million on an amnesty cut pays that much for Maggette? Maybe I can be convinced if you point to an actual team that would want to do that.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

detroit for one

since they have no forwards and are most certainly amnestying ben gordon

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Would we want to pick up Ben Gordon for cheap?

Just asking

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

couldn't hurt

although that’d be odd switching amnesties

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

In that scenario

Detriot could maybe cut their salary obligations to Gordon in half (no one would pay him anything near the 11 million he’s owed this season). So let’s say they cut their obligation for Gordon to 5.5 million this season. Then let’s say the bid only half of what you suggested on Maggette, and end up paying 5 million of his salary. Detriot goes from paying 11 million to Gordon to paying 10.5 million total and the right to play Corey Maggette.

How does that make sense?

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

i would wager

that gordon gets more than 6 million… for reasons, see my post below

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

7 million to Maggette leave us paying 7 million to a player not on our roster

I still don’t see that as a great deal over all. If we could get a 10 million + bid for Maggette then I wouldn’t hate it, but it doesn’t make sense to pay a ton of money for a player that’s not on your team.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

you have amnesty confused

7 million to magette leaves us paying 3 million to a player not on our roster, which is better than paying 4 or 5 million to a player not on our roster if we amnesty diop

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

if we amnesty magette

and a team bids 7 million on him, we only owe the balance, which is three million of his 10.3 million

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea that's where the disconnect is coming from

For some reason I was wrong on Maggette’s salary. He is only being paid 10 million per year.

That changes things.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

But seirously...

who’s going to pick up Maggette’s full contract if we amnesty him (per our bet)?

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Paying 10 million to Maggette...

would put Detriot right at the cap of 58 million. With Maggs added to the roster they have 12 players and practically no room left to sign their rookie lottery pick.

If they wanted to pay Maggette 10 million, they’d probably amnesty Rip Hamilton first. But then we have to think about how much they can expect someone else to pay on Hamilton’s 12 million contract.

I could see Det bidding maybe 5 mil if anything.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

detroit is currently

8 million under the cap… using the rookie scale, theyll spend 5 million to keep their rookies

that leaves 3 million to sign three players

if they amnesty gordon, who is likely to command more than rip because he’s only 28 and had an excellent season his last year as a starter… he also never fit in with detroit even a little bit, meaning someone may be willing to gamble on him…. so let’s say rip gets 9 million, a fair number for a potential starting SG in the NBA… that gives them 12 million, plus whatever trade they can work out with Maxiell’s expiring

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

other options are

the 76ers, Rockets, Raptors even potentially the Clippers

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

detroit

was just the first option i saw that magette would fill a need for

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea, but bidding 10 million makes no sense for Detriot

Let’s see look at why these other teams would want to pay Maggette 10 million

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

You can only use the amnesty on one player right?

or am I wrong about that?

Either way, there’s a lot of “what ifs” that have to happen before Detriot has enough cap room to justify spending 10 mil on Maggs

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Like I said...

Tomorrow has to come before we can even begin to speculate.

Amnesties, free agency, and trades oh my!

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

76ers are at 54 million right now

I’m not sure they’re even be allowed to bid the full 10 million for Maggette without first clearing another huge deal from an amnesty of their own.

Toronto is in a similar cap situation to Detriot at 46 mil, though they probably won’t be signing their rookie lottery pick this year.

Houston’s at 47 mil with 2 rookies still yet to sign contracts. They need a SF, but I can’t see them bidding more than 4 million for Maggs. They probably want to give Chase all the burn he can handle

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

im pretty sure

elton brand is gone in philly

also i think it’s more likely you’re underestimating the max amount teams are willing to bid on certain amnesty players than i am overestimating

but we shall see what the near future brings

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

The reason I think you’re overestimating how much teams will spend on an amnesty contract is that teams have to have the cap room to make the bid. You can’t have a spending free for all on cast off players. Brand won’t draw even 75% of his contract in an amnesty waiver bid because his contract is so large.

The fact that teams are going to end up paying the majority of the contracts that they amnesty will keep a lot of these hypothetical amnesties from actually happening in my opinion.

You’re right, we’ll see

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

i actually believe

the whole “auction the player” thing is stupid… amnesty should allow each team to waive one player with no strings attached… that’s REAL amnesty

the union would NEVER let that happen though

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

nope

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

no one is gonna give Maggette

10mil a season. Im sorry. So whoever bet that LOST. Pay him now. He’ll get no more thatn 6mil. And chances are he’ll wind up in LAC again. Bc they might lose out on the Caron Butler Sweepstakes so if Prince doesnt sign in LA. Its Maggs for the taking. At 5 or 6mil

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

prince is resigning with detroit

prince took a huge DISCOUNT at 6.75 million for 4 years because he didn’t want to leave Detroit

this could hinder maggs value or it could increase it, depending on whether that deal becomes the earmark for veteran sf’s or is an aberration

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

The Clippers may pick him up

if we amnesty him. Butler and Prince were their biggest targets. The Clippers need a veteran SF to get them over the hump. Maggs is still in good shape and the Clippers are trying to make a serious run for the playoffs this season. I could see them picking up Mags. Either that or trade him for Kaman. Plus the Clippers are young enough that having Maggette wont make so much of a difference.

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Clippers signed Caron Butler

Why would they also want Maggette?

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 8, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

:-)

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I typed this way before it was official...

If you check my earlier posts I was saying Caron Butler and Prince were their biggest targets

by focuslja on Dec 9, 2011 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

No doubt the Clippers would put in a bid for Maggs

The question is how much are they willing to pay? I think amnestying Maggs leaves the Bobcats paying most of his salary just to allow him to play on another team.

The Clippers do make the most sense given their cap space and need

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 9, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

the clippers

already signed caron butler, they have little need for maggette now

by adamcawa on Dec 9, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

You're my witness focus

Too bad the bet is only good if the Bobcats actually amnesty Maggs. Otherwise, I’d have a brand new c-note in my pocket right now

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

ditto

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

indeed

but ultimately it comes down to which player would save us more

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I have questions

not clear on amnesty yet
gonna keep it simple just for me to understand: if a guy is released thru amnesty, and nobody signs him, we owe his full contract, right?
if a guy is released thru amnesty, ans someone signs him, we owe a PORTION of the contract,right ?

example>> jefferson released thru amnesty by SA, owed 30 mill, would be paid a portion of that 30 mill, but not all , if some team signs him this year?

"..and we have scott may coming back this season.." bob johnson quote before the start of 07-08 season, when he didnt even know his own players name.

by bobcatsbrendan on Dec 8, 2011 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

Good questions B

As far as I can tell, a player released thru the amnest clause undergoes a modified waiver claim process. Teams under the salary cap (an importany caveat) can bid to pay a portion of the player’s salary and thus receive his services for the remainder of the contract. If no team wants to pay the player, the original team pays the full salary.

This is what makes the amnesty clause such a tricky proposition. If the Lakers or Mavs could bid 10 million to pick up Corey Maggette or Rashard Lewis, they just might do that. The rich would get richer because they can afford to spend as much as they want. The Bobcats or Wizards may like a deal like this because they cut a huge amount out of their salary obligation and lose nothing towards their future team goals.

The problem is that the Lakers and Mavs can’t make this move. Most if not all teams with actual room under the cap aren’t going to waste that room by paying 10 mil to Corey Maggette. A more likely scenario is that a team like Denver bids 5 million for Maggette’s services. That leaves the Bobcats paying Maggete 9 million for a player not on their roster. That’s why the amnesty clause doesn’t make sense in most cases.

I don’t claim to be an expert, but this is what I’ve read about the new amnesty clause and how it works.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Right

No one signs amnestied player = we pay his salary to him and it doesn’t count towards cap
Someone signs amnesited player for a portion of his total previous salary = we pay the balance of their previous contract and it doesn’t count towards the cap.

Option B is better than A. That’s why I say if we amnesty someone, it should be someone that another team would want to pick up…but they are just being overpaid on their current team.

If you’re wanting to free up space…even if the contract is expiring, if you’re looking to clear space to sign a free agent, THEN using the amnesty makes sense.
Let’s say for the sake of argument, that Gerald Wallace is a free agent right now. We traded and got Maggette right now. If we could sign Wallace for $6mil, and he wanted to sign here, we could amnesty Maggette and pick up Wallace. $6 mil counts towards cap…Maggette’s balance does not. Say the Blazers decide to pick up Maggette for $10mil…we owe Maggette the balance…so we are paying $6 to Wallace and $4 to Maggette that isn’t counting towards cap. We still have a cash outflow of $10, but only $6 counts towards cap, so we technically cleared $9mil off of our cap.

I think I’m explaining it right.

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Basically, Yeah

If a player is amnestied, all teams under the cap get to bid on how much of his contract they’d like to take on (for the full length of the contract). Highest bid wins, and the cutting team is on the hook for the remainder of the salary. If no one bids, the cutting team is on the hook for the whole salary, and the player becomes a free agent.

So, for example, if we cut Diop ($7 million a year for two years), and a team bids $2 million, then they get Diop for 2 years and $4 million total. We’re on the hook for the remaining $10 million. If no one bids, we pay the full $14.

by djwilliams11 on Dec 8, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

thanks to those who answered

I think its much much clearer now. now that I get it, I would say I am in the cut magette camp. some team might sign him for a few mill per year. we are on the hook for the rest, but you have playesr here who can take on the scoring load (cunningham, t thomas, henderson, and walker) and are younger and need the playing time.

"..and we have scott may coming back this season.." bob johnson quote before the start of 07-08 season, when he didnt even know his own players name.

by bobcatsbrendan on Dec 8, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

indeed

the playing time in a short season, in which there’s no burden to win, has to be priceless

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Off Topic...

I haven’t seen or heard reports of DJ Agustin participating in workouts. As the starting PG, I would think he would want to be there (like Kemba). Could they have told him he’s trade bait?

by DIRTYSMAC on Dec 8, 2011 10:02 AM EST reply actions  

We can only speculate

but I think DJ’s been trade bait since the draft. Remember how Higgins spoke about the Walker/DJ dynamic? He gushed over the new guy and DJ was an after thought. I don’t think it would be wise to discard DJ until we see what Kemba can actually do in NBA games, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s out the door.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

See?

My DJ/Diaw for Hinrich/M-Will isn’t so far fetched

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

that trade works

but it may as well just be dj for m-will

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea, I like that deal, though I'd want to use Diaw to pick up a better player

or just let Diaw expire. I don’t think trading Diaw for Williams and Hinrich is a really good deal though

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

wed be letting heinrich expire too

i dont think trading dj/diaw for williams/heinrich is a good deal for atlanta!!!

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

They get a decent PG and only lose a tweener forward for it

I think they come off well.

I still would try to get something better for Diaw than this deal.

I agree with you that DJ for Williams straight up makes more sense to me

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Then who do we run for to get PGs?

We’d need to sign 2

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

True, but I'd just as soon roll with a minimum salary vet next season

I’m not saying we have to trade DJ by the way. I’m just saying that I don’t hate the idea of trading him for Williams

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I know...

We rent CP3 so when he’s a free agent he can sign with NY if he wants to

LOL

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I'd love it if we rented CP3 for a season.

As long as it didn’t gut our young core, I’d enjoy the ride while it lasted.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I wondered the same...

I also am wondering what the rest of the guys are doing…
Where is Najera? Diaw? Cunningham?

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Stupid amnesty question.

I know that if we amnesty someone who’s contract is $12 and someone picks him up for $8, we are out $4. I get that.

But what if we amnesty someone worth $2 who is highly sought after and people bid $6 for? Does MJ pocket the extra $4 or does he only get the $2 back? (I’m using DJ as an example, and obviously my numbers are probably wrong — but you get what I’m going for. No need to speculate on what the actual numbers would be.)

by Tim Rudisill on Dec 8, 2011 10:23 AM EST reply actions  

Good question...

they probably can’t negotiate it that way

They can probably only make what their contract was for until the years expire.

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't imagine a scenario where this would actually happen

I think there’s probably a rule not allowing a player to be paid more than his current contract.

I know the scenario you’re suggesting is different, but in the past, paying a salary more than his contract is worth has been a big no no since it meant under the table deals. Think Joe Smith

What you’re suggesting seems above board, but I don’t think that’s the way player salaries work.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

if this were actually allowed

than golden state is getting ready to amnesty Curry RIGHT NOW :-P

by adamcawa on Dec 8, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

This can't happen

Because the amnesty waiver process is a “secondary” waiver process, meaning they do have to clear the normal waiver process first.

So when a player is amnestied (waived), all teams have a right to pick up that player’s full remaining contract, assuming they have cap room or an exception to do so. If there is more than one claim, I think the team with the worst record last year wins.

If no one claims the player via the normal waiver process (which is almost certain to happen since you’re only going to amnesty grossly overpaid players), then the secondary bidding waiver process starts.

So in short, they can’t wind up getting paid more.

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 8, 2011 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you sure exceptions matter in this modified waiver process?

I haven’t read that exceptions can be used for this kind of waiver claim.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 9, 2011 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

im not sure what you're asking

i don’t totally understand the language of exceptions, but san antonio is using their MLE to cover the difference of richard jefferson’s contract, which i believe still grants them the cap space his salary would take up

jefferson will make about is due something like 32 million over the next three seasons, the mle, should they use it all three seasons, would pay 18 million… then you add whatever a team signs him for (prolly the mle) and the spurs actually come out 3 million ahead and still can use the 9 million buffer of his initial contract to go over the cap… so basically, the spurs freed up 12 million (possibly more depending on rj’s contract) by amnestying RJ, although he has a backloaded contract, so that will lessen each year

by adamcawa on Dec 9, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

my math sucks

18 million X 2 is 36 million, leaving them 4 million ahead, plus 9 million

however, if they use all 4 million this year, they would only free up the 9 million the following years (minus whatever his backloaded single season salary is)

by adamcawa on Dec 9, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m asking if a team over the salary cap can use an exception (which wouldn’t count towards luxury tax, often acquired through trade) to bid on a player that had been waived under the new amnesty clause.

I’m asking because I took one of the kep provisions of the amnesty clause as being the part where teams over the salary cap cannot bid on an amnesty player. you can’t spend money over the cap to pick up a portion of an amnesty contract. It seems like an unfair loophole to allow teams over the cap to use a cap exception to pick up an amnesty player.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 9, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

Teams over the cap cannot bid in the secondary waiver process. I’m just not sure if the amnestied player would fit into the MLE (which won’t be the case most of the time), if they can be claimed via the normal waiver process first.

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 9, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

i assume

since san antonio used their version of a loophole, when they could’ve just used the MLE to sign someone else, that you are indeed correct in your assumption that teams can’t bid on amnesty players using any sort of exception if they’re already over the cap

by adamcawa on Dec 9, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

sub kemba on rookie deal for augustin deal (same price) and you have an option

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=co8y2s5

dell demps says he wants vets on the squad, calderon would fit that bill, and even if we rent paul, we shed thomas contract

"..and we have scott may coming back this season.." bob johnson quote before the start of 07-08 season, when he didnt even know his own players name.

by bobcatsbrendan on Dec 8, 2011 3:09 PM EST reply actions  

I would take it

If we could shed Thomas’ contract. We would probably be terrible at PF but we can always sign someone to fill the spot. If we could do this trade, trade Maggette for Kaman. Add Marvin and Reggie Williams and we may can convince him to stay…

by focuslja on Dec 8, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I just wonder where are the guts at for the front office

if you make mistakes you dont run and hide and hope never to make another mistake. look at the blazers, they brought in thugs but kept trading until they got some good players thru thoase same methods in roy and aldridge, and now even gerald wallace. I like the theory of building thru the draft, but once we have all the cap space in the world who want to sign with a small market when you havent won yet? even big markets have a hard time filling the roster with all that cap space, see the bulls from 1999 thru 2009 with that idea. I just dont want to turn into a farm system for LA, NY or MIA. I always liked the idea of trading for key pieces under contract, add a player here & there thru the draft. talent can be had in the lat 1st or 2nd if your scouting staff is worth a damn, ask san antonio about that approach. if cho has some guts he counterbalances the tight wallet approach of jordan with some trade ideas. good GMS win with what there bosses tell them to do, GREAT gm’s win by taking risks and adding the right mix while keeping the roster young.

"..and we have scott may coming back this season.." bob johnson quote before the start of 07-08 season, when he didnt even know his own players name.

by bobcatsbrendan on Dec 8, 2011 3:33 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think Cho's the one with the tight wallet

MJ’s writing the checks. If he wanted to spend right now he would. You don’t blow money when you’re rebuilding. That’s just not good business.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 8, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to put this to rest

The winning bid for Billups was $2 million. So there is no way Maggette draws more than that in the amnesty process, especially since there are only a precious few teams still under the cap.

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 13, 2011 9:47 PM EST reply actions  

I disagree.

Billups was threatening to retire if a team picked him off the amnesty wire. That greatly lowered his value. I’m not saying Maggette will get a lot more, but he at least doesn’t have the “I’ll retire if you pick me” thing going on.

by Tim Rudisill on Dec 14, 2011 5:30 AM EST up reply actions  

That might have affected whether or not a team placed a bid

It doesn’t affect the size of the bid, IMO. And I heard there were up to 5 claims on Billups anyway.

My heart pumps no Kool-Aid

by Bring Back Primoz on Dec 14, 2011 7:52 AM EST up reply actions  

If you go to a blind auction and you believe that no one else will bid, are you still going to give your max bid?

Of course, I’m not entirely sure that the waiver wires are blind bids …

by Tim Rudisill on Dec 14, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

No player worth his contract is going to cut using the amnesty clause anyway

so the bids are necessarily going to be well below the value of the contract.

Can we just go ahead and say I won this bet? Somebody needs to pay up!

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 14, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Not entirely true.

A product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

A team may want to amnesty a player that isn’t worth $10m to them (perhaps due to luxury tax or having too many players at that position), but to another team that player might be worth $15m. I’m not saying it will happen, or even that it is likely, only that it is possible.

by Tim Rudisill on Dec 14, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, you've kind of made the point for me

For all practical purposes, what I’m saying is true.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 14, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

kwame brown gets 7 million

and you’re suggesting that corey maggette would only get 2 million?

Tim is correct in saying that Billups “warning” played a huge roll in what his amnesty became worth. Also, we don’t know that some teams retracted their bids (which they are allowed to do). It could very well be that the teams Billups wanted to play for had no interest in him.

Even still, if Kwame can get 7 million…. once free agency unfolds, if there are several teams out there still needing a veteran gf, then, perhaps we could still get value from amnestying Maggette

that said, it’s highly unlikely that there will be teams with the capspace needing a GF by the end of free agency (i.e. if we know four teams need gf’s, but they only have 5 million in cap space, we’d be dumb to amnesty maggette) so we’re better off amnestying/trading him next season now

by adamcawa on Dec 14, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

oh and also

i have been too stubborn and proud to admit that when i posted 10 million, i was using the 14 million mark as his current salary within the context of that post, completely forgetting that he only makes 10 million

so, in all honesty, i have little confidence ANY player amnestied would fetch as much as their current salary unless they were a superstar

but i thought, 10 out of 14 isn’t anywhere out of the realm of possibilty for a player of maggette’s caliiber/notoriety

by adamcawa on Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

and finally

i believe the wager i made was:

if corey maggette gets amnestied and doesn’t get 10 million dollars, you win

in ALL other scenarios, I win

all has to include him not getting amnestied as well, therefore you owe me 100 bucks

and, presumably, since you were suggesting you had, in fact, won the bet, you were acknowledging the bet was made. those were the stipulations i posted. by ackowledging the bet and attempting to claim a debt, you have accepted the bet

Pay… up.

by adamcawa on Dec 14, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

100 bucks?

Where will he find that many deer?

Bobcats Basketball is my only pro sports passion...

by andrewlail76 on Dec 14, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

pssh

this is north carolina…. just drive down some backroad with your highbeams on and you’ll hit 6 or 7

by adamcawa on Dec 14, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Hilarious

I was giving you a hard time because you made a lousy bet, maybe I pushed a little too hard, but you can read well enough to know what the terms of the bet are.

I called you on the “all other scenarios” bullshit as soon as you tried to pull it. Pay up…HA

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 14, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

i never waivered

from my terms of the bet

if this were a courtroom, you’d owe me money

not to mention, the one single stipulation of your side of the bet wasn’t met, so yeah…

by adamcawa on Dec 14, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Slow your roll nephew

If this were a courtoom, we’d both be kicked out on our hind ends for wasting everybody’s time.

You never firmly stated the terms of the bet, you questioned them. You questioned what the acceptable terms were, and I explained them.

Finally, it’s obvious we NEVER had a bet. You weren’t sure enough of yourself to agree to reasonable terms, and you shouldn’t have been. You picked a lousy side to take and you knew it. I was just giving you a hard time because you were never going to admit that you were grossly over estimating the impact of the amnesty clause.

I’m sorry if I took it too far, but it’s ultimately all in good fun.

by Basketball Rambler on Dec 15, 2011 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

???

you didn’t think i was going to try and collect on my winnings did you?

:-D

by adamcawa on Dec 15, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

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