Carmelo Anthony on the block: What should the Bobcats trade to get him?
by David A. Arnott on Aug 27, 2010 9:39 AM EDT
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PrintWe've been down the Carmelo Anthony rabbit hole before, but let's revisit it one more time. The SBN Nuggets blog, Denver Stiffs, has offered to evaluate whatever offers we might come up with for 'Melo against offers from blogs of teams mentioned in the Yahoo! report stating 'Melo wants out, so let's come up with an offer to send them. Check it with the Trade Machine.
As much as I hesitate to do it, in order to get Anthony, I think we'd have to start with Gerald Wallace and go on from there. In sum, the two separate trades (in order to trade Dampier):
CARMELO for CRASH and MOHAMMED
and
J.R. SMITH and BIRDMAN for DAMPIER
Basically, if they want Wallace and Dampier's contract, they have to give us more than 'Melo, and without getting a third team involved I don't see a permutation that works without including J.R. Smith and Chris Andersen. Heaven knows if they'd actually want Nazr Mohammed, but I think they'd want Boris Diaw less. He can be subbed in if you think that'd be more attractive to Denver.
What do you think?
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I'd rather keep Gerald
I couldn’t stand to look at that ridiculous WB tattoo all year.
by milky C on Aug 27, 2010 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
every fan should rec this post
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
I'll tell ya about the Magic It'll free your soul but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll
"This dude is huge....I've got to go home and eat like five chickens and put a lot of weight on. It's going to take a couple months, but seriously." - Marcin Gortat about Shaq.
by NC Magic Fan on Aug 29, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
WB = Wild Beast on the court but i honestly don’t see us getting him. As far as us trading with Denver yea i can see it but only in a 3 way some how.
Maybe we could do a 3-way
that involves Greg Oden?
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 30, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Insert Greg Oden penis joke here
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 30, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
here is mine. its a two parter.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=278bw55
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yz5yf3a
we stay weak at the 5, but with a lineup of
Billups
Jax
Melo
Thomas
diop/brown
…i dont think we have much to worry about
hmmmm
After looking at all these trade scenerios I’m not sure that GW isn’t better for you guys to keep. He comes at about half the price that Melo will demand with a max contract, and is a much better defender, rebounder, hustle player. Taking all that into account I think I’d rather have GW. I’m not primarily a Bobcats fan so I don’t know was well as some of you, but unless you’re team desperately needs scoring so much that it can sacrifice defense and the teams identity, then I say keep GW!
by freerandolph on Aug 30, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not a damn thing.
He’s going to New York next year anyway. I’d rather keep the heart and soul of the franchise then have to deal with a diva. Same for CP3.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
are you serious?
so you’d rather lose is what you’re saying?
The heart and soul of the franchise could possibly be the biggest key in this franchise actually making a postive step forward from joke to contender.
whatever it takes. I want to compete, not wax poetic about players that cant take us all the way.
I cant believe people are against bringing in one of the top 5 players in the league. unbelievable
Keeping GW over Melo would make us losers?
No – it would make us better defensively and would maintain chemistry.
We don’t have to give up GW to get Melo. GW is still the key.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
and another early playoff exit. Yah for chemistry!
like i said if theres a way to get better players here without giving up Gerald ill be the happiest man on earth. but i just dont think its realistic. and getting a top 5 player for a top 30 player is well worth the chemistry loss, if that is even the case..
Uhhh...
how about upgrading the PG and C postions? I’d start there before trading away GW. I mean, even upgrading one of those positions would help tremendously and we have pieces to give to where we could bring in a pretty great player at one of those two places without getting rid of Crash.
Fair enough
you are exactly right, there are larger more glaring holes in the roster than replacing GW. and no one would be happier about keeping him and getting better at the same time than me.
I still mantain that anything less than shooting for the moon is useless. Bringing in Brooks would be awesome right. I agree with that, but it doesnt make us contenders. I just personally think that Crash is a better 2nd guy than he is a 1st. here in charlotte hes a 1st and we have won precisely dick. bring in Brooks, Billups or Nene and we are still a limited team.
If we cant score, we cant win. and the stats are with me. Best defense in the league last year got us a nice swift playoff exit.
Is Carmelo shooting for the moon?
Denver isn’t a one man team, and they haven’t ever played for a title. Pairing Melo with Jax wouldn’t be an improvement.
Billups
last season Billups had 19.5 points on 41.8% fg 38.6% 3pt and 91% ft.
He is a scorer who can handle pressure and has no problem handling, distributing or shooting the rock when the game is on the line.
My view is that Billups alone makes the Bobcats a legitimate threat to beat anybody.
i agree with Charlotte Bobcat
why trade Gerald if Melo doesnt sign an extension? i mean yeah we win for one year but if he leaves we lose 2 franchise players but if Melo signs an extension then yeah we should trade Wallace
Top 5 at what?
Kobe, Durant, Wade, James, Howard. Carmelo is not top 5 dude. Sorry to tell you.
How is getting Carmelo and losing Gerald instantly upgrading to a contender? We would then have Jackson AND Melo throwing up hundreds of questionable shots with no one there to try to play defense.
So you’re telling me the Nuggets have been championship material? Anthony has had a WAY better supporting cast then Gerald has throughout his career and what has been the Nuggets crowning achievement? Getting destroyed by the Lakers every year?
For some reason, your logic doesn’t let you look at the full picture. So, I’ll offer some more perspective to you. For one, Carmelo would be playing for Larry Brown again. Don’t recall him playing for him the first time? Look back at the Olympic squad Larry coached and tell me how him and Carmelo were getting along. For two, Gerald Wallace is one of the best bargain players in the league. Gerald Wallace makes 9.8 million this year as opposed to Carmelo, who makes over 17 million. Can you argue with me that Anthony is a better player than Gerald? Sure. Can you argue with me that he’s worth twice than Gerald? Not at all. Trading for Anthony won’t solve the Bobcats problem. Our question marks are at the PG and at the Center spot. And for three, if you trade for Anthony, you’re pretty much giving up on this season because you’re trading all of your assets for him and would need to work the next year to free up enough cap room to sign Chris Paul, which would more than likely end up with Stephen Jackson needing to be traded. You guys been playing NBA 2k10 too much to really think that Anthony is that much of an upgrade over Wallace. Smh.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
+1
There’s an interesting read on Carmelo on the TrueHoop network. Sadly it’s Insider only, but I’m a slave to the man (ESPN) and have an account, read the article… By all advanced metrics, Carmelo Anthony is not a max player. In the article, they show that he has a below average field goal percentage for last season and for his career (.458 as opposed to the league average .463). He’s a career .308 from 3 (average small forward shoots .349). Denver plays at a ridiculous pace (just behind the Suns when they were running like crazy), thus inflating his numbers. He has a league average offensive efficiency rating, well below James, Wade, and Bosh. He’s a poor rebounder (6.2 career).
I personally think that, unless we can keep Wallace, we’re better off facilitating a trade as a third party to upgrade the positions we’re really lacking rather than making what looks like a big splash but is most likely an overall lateral move.
Yes, not poor.
Shouldn’t have put that. Average would be more accurate (based on league averages at the position).
I'm just relaying what the article said
Not arguing the merits of Gerald Wallace. What I mean by it being a lateral move is that I would consider an extra 5 wins resulting from that trade to be on the high side. In my opinion (and just my opinion, mind you), the cap implications of having a $17 million a year vs $10 million a year player that are only marginally different is not worth it when you’re a cap strapped team. I’m not saying Melo isn’t better, I’m saying that I don’t think he’s necessarily better for this team overall. Unless he can push ticket sales through the roof and warrant us being a luxury tax team where other players want to go. That could change things significantly.
That's the kicker
Ticket sales, jersey sales, sponsors, etc. all go through the roof and Melo puts the Bobcats on the NBA map. MJ has no choice but to make it happen, even if it means parting ways with Wallace.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm more worried about the product on the court than all of the marketing crap.
That’s for band wagon riders. If you’re trying to build a team to compete for a championship, Gerald Wallace is simply the better player to have on your roster. His salary is much more reasonable and he’s a much better teammate. Sure, Melo can get us a few more extra season wins and probably a few victories in the playoffs, but the same weaknesses we had against Orlando then, we’d have now. SF isn’t our position of concern. I mean, if this is a glitz and glamor move, then fine, let’s call it that. However, I’m more interested in having a championship team. And trading all of our assets just for Anthony isn’t going to put us there.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I guess I'm a band wagoner then....
MJ owns a business…
And while all of the fans would love to win, as does MJ himself, he has to also flip this team into making a profit. The Bobcats have been in the red since coming back into the league.
So does Jordan keep Wallace and build a mediocre team at best with the addition of Brooks and still get swept in the 1st round…
Or does he bring in a star player and start making money while winning at the same time?
It is what it is…I love Crash too and would hate to see him go, but if you have a chance to bring in someone like Melo and make money, all while winning at the same time…why wouldn’t you do it?
Because there is no guarantee that Charlotte would be that much better.
I’m all with the plan of bringing team Jordan to Charlotte with Paul and Anthony leading the way, but other than that, no. Like I said, the same weaknesses that were Boris Diaw and Raymond Felton don’t go away with a trade for Melo. We still won’t have any dominant post players or an efficient PG. All we would be doing is recreating the Denver Nuggets of 3 years ago. However, now, Stephen Jackson would be filling the role of Allen Iverson. Just like Jackson pushed the Bobcats to another level, it took acquiring Chauncey Billups for the Nuggets to be pushed to another level. Like I said, I wouldn’t be too upset about this deal. I don’t want to sound like Carmelo is a bad player or anything. He’s obviously one of the best in the league. But ultimately, no matter who is on your team, winning is going to put the most money in the owner’s pocket. And having Anthony in place of Wallace really doesn’t make us a threat to any of the other top Eastern Conference teams. I do believe that Wallace can be a starter on a championship team and he’s at a very reasonable salary for his contributions.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This is for both Charlotte Bobcat and paison's post/comment(s)
Marketing isn’t just for band-wagon jumpers. It’s an essential aspect of running a professional sports franchise. However…
Gerald Wallace is rapidly becoming the face of the Charlotte Bobcats despite the promotions office’s attempt to market Jackson. The fans love Wallace and want more of him. Yes, ‘Melo would bring more people to the arena, but the club is already having a record-breaking year for season tickets and sponsors are lining up. Why? Because of that one single trip into the playoffs. There is a synergy involved in marketing. Success starts the ball rolling by increasing free publicity and interest in the team. The additional moneys realized by the advance sales and new-found popularity in turn gives the team more freedom to make improvements in the game experience, which breeds still more success, and so on. Eventually – and the Bobcats aren’t quite there yet although they’re approaching it – this synergy reaches a tipping point and becomes self-sustaining.
Purely from the marketing perspective, bringing ‘Melo into town does little to affect the momentum already gained by last seasons’ successes. His name value will bring fans in and perhaps create some new believers in the team, but if it costs us Gerald Wallace to bring Anthony to town, there will also be a measurable backlash from the existing fans. That backlash will counterbalance a lot of the gains made.
The decision to bring ‘Melo into town will (and should) be based solely on how much of a positive impact his presence will bring to the win column during the regular season. He may bring a better cachet to our maturity in the playoffs, but we still have to get there first. The loss of Wallace on the Time Warner court will take at least a third of the season for Jackson and the other returning players to adjust to. I do believe it’s a worthwhile trade (provided he’s here long-term) but it isn’t nearly the slam-dunk decision that some are making it out to be. It’s a much closer call than the stats would seem to indicate, especially when you factor in the much greater salary we’ll be paying for a moderate gain in scoring capacity.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with the Marketing side of things
What you say may indeed be correct for a regionaly or even state look at the bobcats. Nationally and internationally Melo is far bigger than Crash.
I can go to my local Sports store in Australia and get Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, Melo, Wade, Bosh, Shaq Jerseys, but I cannot buy a Crash Jersey.
The financial impact of trading for Melo would be huge for Jordan and the Bobcats.
From a purely fans point of view the financial impact doesn’t matter, but when your the owner the business is a huge part of it, and in Melo v’s Crash Melo wins hands down in this area.
I agree, it's not all about money
But we’re getting too emotionally tied to Wallace. This makes us better too.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Better than what?
You’re telling me that a starting lineup of Livngston, Jackson, Melo, Tyrus and Kwame are really going to be better than a 6th seed team in the East? Carmelo is a great scorer, but nothing else. Having him and Jackson on the floor at the same time has the potential to get downright ugly when they are both off.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
There will be more players switching hands
So it’s tough to guess. And honestly, I’m like the rest of you. Being a third party that nets a cheap young player like Brooks would be fantastic as well. I just don’t think you have any chance to go very deep in the playoffs with Wallace as your best player. And it’s tough for me to say that. I’ve been a season ticket holder since Day One and I love Crash. If we traded him and Diaw to Miami for Lebron and Wade, I’d still be sad to see him go. It’s not emotional, it’s just business.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to throw it out there...
SF rankings..Melo ranks 3 and Crash ranks 4
so
Other than poor shot selection…and losing a player who improves a part of his game every season…
What are we gaining?
Marketing?
Let’s market Crash…we made it to the playoffs…everyone saw Crash and his playing…they will get interested…he’s part of the Jumpman family…
I’m still on board with the
Wait for it…
Crash will be even better this year…
Wait for it
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Top 5 Scorer, Hands Down
I’d love to see you TRY to pick 5 guys you’d rather give the ball to when you need a bucket. Melo is d@mn near unguardable.
by damartin1984 on Aug 28, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Michael Redd and Danny Granger are top 5 scorers too when healthy.
If an offensive spark plug is what you want, how about J.R. Smith, Jamal Crawford, or Flip Murray? And it’s easy to be a top scorer when you take so many shots a game.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 29, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
drawing fouls
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Sep 2, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
A few comments...
1. The Charlotte Bobcats do NOT need to take a step forward from joke to contender. They may not be contenders at the moment, but other teams stopped laughing at the Bobcats last season when the team made Time Warner into one of the hardest places in the league to steal a road win. This team is no longer a joke. The big question for fans right now is what will be the best way to move the team from playoff contenders to title contenders. That’s a subject for serious debate, but not laughter. We’ve come a long way in a short time. Just because the journey isn’t complete yet it doesn’t mean we need to ignore the progress already made.
2. It’s time to look at Gerald Wallace for what he truly is – one of the 10 best at his position in the NBA. We should be building AROUND him as we did last season with Jackson and Thomas, not looking to trade him for someone that plays the same position at roughly the same level. If we are to use Wallace for trading purposes it should be to fill one of our glaring holes. Position-wise, that means an outstanding point guard and a solid center. Team-wise, the center or guard we acquire needs to be a top-flight scorer so we can add to our overall offense. Last season our defensive play kept us in all but a handfull of games (the Celtics were one of the few teams that “had our number.”) Our big problem was that we lacked the ability to score at the other end after our defensive stops. If you add 5 points per to our scoring totals last season we would have been among the top seeds in the Eastern Conference.
3. The big danger we face this season isn’t that we’ve gotten weaker, it’s that other teams got much stronger. When I go through the schedule game by game I see us within 3 wins one way or another of where we were last season. I think we’re looking at a carbon copy repeat this season and unless we make some changes our ability to perform in the playoffs will once again depend heavily on our draw in the first round.
4. Having said that, anyone believing that the roster we are staring at this morning will be unchanged between now and December is just being naive. Great things can happen this season in Charlotte and there are very few scenarios that require putting Wallace on the auction block in order to make those great things occur.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 30, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
On point #3
You don’t think it’s being pinched from both sides Ourday?
I agree that the bigger risk is how much better the rest of the East has gotten, but as it stands the roster today is weaker than the roster we ended 2009-10 with.
We added depth at the 2 and 3, where I didn’t really think it was needed while losing depth from the 1 and 5 where we were already weak to begin with. I like having Matt Carroll as a sniper off the bench, but we gave up a lot to get him and Najera.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 30, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Chandler and Ajincia are a lot?
He won’t play in 82 games this year. He probably won’t play in 50 of them. And he’s a terrible liability on offense. Just because Chandler is on the Olympic team and had a decent playoff run doesn’t change the fact that he was gone for over 1/3 of the season and couldn’t score a post shot to save his life. Don’t get me wrong, Chandler is clearly the best center of all the ones we’ve dealt with over the past year or so (not counting Oak), but his biggest value was his $13 million expiring deal, which was replaced by the unguaranteed $13 mil of Dampier. The fact that you see Carrol as a player we tried to trade for makes him an added plus. I’m pretty sure it was the other way around, we didn’t want him but the Mavs wanted us to take him.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 30, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel our current roster is currently weaker than the end of season roster because the PG position is weaker
Livingston and Collins aren’t as good as Felton.
Technically Dampier is currently on the roster, so the C is about the same. Dampier and Chandler are about equal. Kwame and Theo are close. Once we trade Dampier this will change. While we lose Dampier, we will possibly add a starting Pg or C.
The current roster is better than the roster we had before the season started last year.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 30, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Our roster is definitely weaker because Raymond Felton is gone and no one knows
how D.J. or Livingston will do at this point, but we’ll be using the center by committee this year just like last year. After Damp is gone though, I think we’ll need to add another center though because I think Larry would start Crash at the 5 before he let Diop.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 30, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Livingston better for us than Ray?
If you want a PG that plays wrecklessly and doesn’t understand the value of possesion, then by all means Ray is the PG for you. I want a guy that plays with his head more than his heart. I think we will win some games late just because we now have a PG with actual PG skills. Excellent decision maker, great size, and he knows the difference between a good shot and a poor one. I love Ray, but i have to admit i’m glad he is gone. Everything about Livingston’s game centers around what LB wants out of his PG. It’s gonna be a great match, trust me!
Livingston has absolutely no outside shooting.
Something Raymond could provide, at the minimal at least. That being said though, I don’t think Livingston will be able to carry the load for an entire season. If he’s healthy, I think he can be 3X better than Ray in our offense. That’s a pretty big if though.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 31, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha you got that right
Livingston hasn’t hit a three pointer in an NBA game since February 9… of 2007
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
by Ben Swanson on Aug 31, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
On the other hand,
last year Raymond only hit .8 three pointers/game, taking only 2 shots from behind the arc per game.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
by Ben Swanson on Aug 31, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering that Chandler was injured most of the season, we're used to being without him.
The real area we are weaker is at point guard. We’re going to feel the loss of Felton, to be sure. But I don’t think the loss is as significant as the rate in which several other Eastern teams improved. Also James, if your people are saying the same things as mine I think we both know the roster is far from set in stone at this point.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 30, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh absolutely...
Just discussing from a ‘if the season started today’ standpoint.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 31, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Wallace is one of the 5 best at his position
I think many of us are coming to the conclusion that Wallace really isn’t one to trade.
by and1droid on Aug 30, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is the closest thing to a lateral move (if we were dealing him and parts for Melo)
Although CA brings a ton of scoring, I agree that Melo for Crash (and extras) doesn’t impact us to the degree that a top flight PG and/or C would. So as I look at Denver being the next team most likely to break apart due to dealing Melo, our challenge is to see how we can benefit. The talk of Billups coming here may be just as remote as Melo…depending on what other teams would be willing to offer for him. Same goes for Nene. They will not give these guys away. Having BOTH would be awesome, and immediately plant the Cats as a contender for top 4 in the east. Don’t see how we could realistically make that happen without giving up Crash or Jax.
No trading Wallace unless it nets us
Melo, Billups, Nene, and a time share at a sky resort in Colorodo for all any RoF member. I’d like the second weekend in January if no one else minds.
We'll know more when Denver define their terms
Are they looking for max cap space?
Looking for young talent and picks? (Yahoo thinks so)
Are they looking to keep much of their team intact, or blow it all up?
If the answers are 1 and 3 then the Bobcats have the most to offer. Option one would be a deal centered around Dampier, Mohammad, Henderson and Augustin’s expiring contracts. Young (albeit unproven) talent, and lots of cap space.
If it’s option 3 and they want to keep the Nuggets much as they are, then Gerald Wallace would be the obvious player to leave. If he works for Denver they get an all-star, if their season tanks then Crash becomes the most desirable player for a team looking to make a playoff push.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Great point
I think the Dampier, Nazr, Wallace trade is kind of a middle ground offer for Denver too. They get 20 million expiring and an All-Star with a reasonable contract. Throw in a young inexpensive player (DJ or Henderson) and a draft pick or two and I would say that sounds pretty enticing.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Charlotte would also appeal to Denver
in that they’re in the Eastern Conference. If they trade him to NY, they look like they’re bowing down to his wants. If he goes to Charlotte, he’ll be out of the Western Conference and on a team that no one really invisioned. I think it looks good for Charlotte. Although I’d hate to lose Crash.
by blueridgecat on Aug 27, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
They defined it...
Young talent, cap space and draft picks
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
A Birman a Sprewell wanabe and a Diva… NO Thanks
A 3 team trade helping the Rockets get Melo and netting us Brooks and maybe Martin or Nene YES.
Smith is expiring
He can score points in bunches off the bench and we only have to put up with him for a year. I’d take that gamble.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Love the above trade...
CHA getting Melo, JR, and Birdman.
Say what you want about Melo and JR choking people out, but the fact remains that our offense would significantly improve. Yes we were the best defenses in the league, but it didn’t matter b/c we were also one of the worst offenses. If we can sustain a top level D and add more scoring threats, we can make a serious push for a 3-5 seed.
JR can easily be an instant spark of the bench. Granted, he can shoot you in AND out of games….but it seems to me that he helps more than he hurts despite character flaws. Plus LB won’t be having that ish anyway.
As far as Melo…obviously the Cats aren’t going to do anything with him unless we know that he is signing an extenstion. I don’t think our FO is that stupid to trade away our talent for a one year rental. And it’s funny how everyone is calling Melo a “diva.” Last time I checked, this “diva” was one of the top 5 players in the league and may eventually be the ticket to landing CP3 as well.
He is a diva.
And compared to Gerald Wallace, he’s just not worth it at all. For all of the things he brings on offense, Anthony is just as inefficient on the defensive side of the ball. If Crash leaves, we lose our team identity entirely. And I’m far from the type to label everybody a diva for every little complaint they have, but Chris Paul and Carmelo have both shown their true colors this off-season. Their dreams are to be in New York in Madison Square Garden. Not Charlotte. And I’ve never considered Carmelo to be top 5. All he does is score. A SF version of Michael Redd. I’d rather stick with Gerald.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Only thing I disagree with you about
is saying that Melo and CP3 have shown their “true colors”. Melo is being ridiculous demanding a trade from a team that has been contending for years now, although they do seem to have hit their wall.
Obviously this is just conjecture, but it seems to me that CP3 was trying to motivate his team to get better as much as anything. And even if he really was serious about leaving, his team has been so cheap and hasn’t supplied him with proper help, so its more understandable to me. When you have a legitimate top 5 NBA player, how could you give him as little as the Hornets have!?!?!? Just don’t get it.
by freerandolph on Aug 30, 2010 7:31 AM EDT up reply actions
As Little?
The misperception that New Orleans has somehow been too cheap to surround Chris Paul with a strong team is all about George Shinn. It also has very little to do with reality. We can disagree with the wisdom of some of their decisions, but calling them cheap is just plain wrong.
The only recent move made by the Hornets that can even be argued to be cheap was the trade of Cole Aldrich to get rid of Mo Pete’s contract. They also got back two late 1st round picks and got below the luxury tax in that deal (not below the salary cap – below the luxury tax). Four questions:
Didn’t the Hornets overpay for James Posey two seasons ago in an effort to get that last player to put them over the top?
And the next year didn’t they take on Emeka Okafor’s contract in another effort to improve?
This year didn’t they take on even more salary commitmenst when they traded the relatively inexpensive Darren Collison for Trevor Ariza?
Have they let any of their own talent slip away because they didn’t want to pay?
I mean, don't get me wrong,
if we traded Crash for Anthony, then I’m fine with it. I mean, I know it’d boost interest in the Bobcats a ton. Increase fan support and all of that, but I’ve just never been that big of a fan of Melo. I was when he was with Syracuse. But ever since he’s come to the NBA, he’s just been a punk to me. Maybe it’s that fight with the Knicks that made me see him for what he was, but I’m just not ready to build a team around him. I honestly don’t think he’ll ever win a championship as a head man. But, you’re right, a trade for him would give us the best chance at CP3 in a couple of years. But we’ll need to use this year to shed cap space for him.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure why our players aren't young enough..
I say give up Crash, Diaw, Damp, Henderson and DJ for Melo, Billups and JR. They want JR outta there and Henderson gives them something to build on. Crash is an eye-for-an-eye, and all-star SF for another. Damp is the salary savings certificate, while Diaw provides a good option at multiple spots as a 6th man. DJ and Hendo are solid young lottery picks to build on. We take on a superstar re-signed for 3 more years (security), an all-star PG for 2 years, and a head case that could go either way, but he’s an expiring. We’d probably have to give up another 1st round pick, but this deal (if done) certainly shoves all the chips to the middle of the table for the next 3 years. Might as well since we’re overloaded on salary anyway.
I dont want Melo
The more i think about it, the more i am NOT willing to give up Crash for Melo.
I’d give up other pieces, but not Wallace, it’s just not worth it, especially if Melo bolts for NY next year anyway.
by dudemanhey on Aug 27, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
You don't screw over the guy who makes you millions
I assure you, if the Bobcats trade for Anthony it will be because he and MJ have had talks and he’s willing to resign.
Times like this that Jordan brand comes in handy.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
its not even an issue
Melo wants a 3 year extension. just not in Denver. If he signs here, James is right, it’ll be for a while.
I agree...
trading Crash for Melo is NOT an “eye-for-an-eye”. It’s not even close. Here are 2 main reasons why:
(1)Melo plays zero defense. I’d take a guy that scores less points and plays solid defense over a scorer like Melo any day. Here is an excerpt from Kelly Dwyer when he ranked the small forwards this year(Crash was #4, Melo #3).
“I would have no problem…in flipping him with Carmelo Anthony on more than a few nights. Anthony’s offense is as good as Wallace’s D, but Wallace’s offense is so, so much better than Carmelo’s defense.”
(2)Taking on Carmelo would only cause problems with Jax I believe. Crash is not an ego, and will never cry if he doesnt shoot 22 times per game. Melo would. Melo would. He is egocentric and not at all the person/player that Gerald Wallace is.
by JordanCATS on Aug 27, 2010 11:48 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
We could then reunite Allen Iverson with Carmelo Anthony and watch
the Bobcats tank worse than Denver did when they paired the two.
I’m OK with adding Melo if we can keep Crash.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Come on.
If we got Melo, he isnt bolting. Thats an idiotic premise. If he’s signed here it will be for at least 3 years.
You guys can cling to Wallace all you want, but the fact is we got swept in the first round last year like we were a high school team. We need offense, we need take over ability. All the defense in the world doesnt help when you’re only scoring 60 points a game.
Look with Brown coaching, defense will be there. period. Yes Gerald is a great defender, but he is as bad offensively as he is good defensively. I love the guy, but if he is our best player, we will never win anything. thats just fact. If theres a way to get better without losing him, show me. but it aint out there as possibility.
Whatever it takes, MJ. Contend.
Agreed...you cannot ignore a deadly scorer
I understand that Melo and Jax could be a black hole where shots go and never get shared with anyone else, but I think they would find a way to play enough D to contend. Billups is not being considered enough here…if included in this deal (as I suggested) he is a major factor in making this team a contender. Not a match to the big 3 in Miami but we’d resemble them more than most. We’d have some decent quality off the bench but thin on the front line. With this deal we’d need to sign a couple of minimum FA’s.
I agree with the Billups part
In fact, i’d be happy just trading Dampier and DJ for Billups. I think that makes the Cats a much team in itself!
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5680557
Denver gets Dampier & DJ
Charlotte gets Billups
I’d do this in a heart beat. No questions
"Yes Gerald is a great defender, but he is as bad offensively as he is good defensively."
Uhhh…what?
by djwilliams11 on Aug 27, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding Carmelo doesn't mean advancing in the playoffs
Denver has been to the playoffs 7 times with Anthony. Six times they lost in the first round, and they’ve always put quality players around him, too.
We got swept
Because the leader of the team…the PG…couldn’t distribute, score, or otherwise…
Crash was not even near the reason
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen
We also lost because we were up against a FAR superior team. It should not be dismissed that the average point differential the Bobcats had against the Magic was significantly smaller than the Hawks managed against them in the next round. Simply put, we came close, but the other playoff opponents (until the Magic made their exit) got waylayed. our quick exit had as much to do with getting a bad seeding draw as it did Felton or any other factor.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Depth
We had no depth…When you have 5-6 guys on a team…and that’s it…you can’t play a team that is 8-9 guys deep…
And it is true that we need a scorer…but does anyone want to take a bet that Crash worked on his shot this Summer?
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i put this in another thread, but it looks like ppl migrated over here now for the melo talk
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5680364
New Lineups for each team
Bobcats:…all i can say is skeeet skeeeeeet
PG-Billups/Livingston/Collins
SG-Jax/JR/Caroll
SF-Melo/Jax/McGuire
PF-Tyrus/Najera
C-Naz/Foster/Kwame/Diop
Indiana:….is this a contender? no…but it does give them the PF depth they need for the season…while getting rid of players who have worn out their welcome
C-Hibbert/Jones
PF-K-mart/Diaw/Hansborogay
SF-Granger/Diaw/Brown
SG-Rush/Jones/Stevenson
PG-Collison/DJ
Denver:….still a competitive team and moves the players who would have most likely demanded trades once melo left or really expressed not wanting to be there now that melo’s gone…i still think this team could play
C-Nene/Birdman
PF-Harrington/Birdman
SF-Wallace/Dunleavy
SG-Afflalo/Henderson
PG-Ford/Lawson
I'm not sure Denver would go for this at all
They’re giving up way too much of their team. Smith, Billups, K Mart & Melo??
i see ur point
but…
Smith….is already out the door
K-Mart….coming off of big injury an most likely leaving after this year if Melo is gone
Billups…yes they could prolly get a fair amount for billups, but hes getting really old and lawson is going to be taking over the position (I think)
Melo…yes he is top 5 player…but we already know he’s forcing his way out
Can someone help me understand this?
I love Crash, I really do… but can someone help me understand why getting Carmelo Anthony for him wouldn’t be the best move this franchise ever made?
Per 48:
Anthony: 35.8 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 3.2 apg, 0.458 FG% (25.4 PER)
Wallace: 20.1 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.6 apg, 0.484 FG% (18.7 PER)
Most importantly this idea that Melo plays no defense is an absolute myth and fallacy. Opponent’s PER per 48 minutes:
Anthony: 15.3
Wallace: 15.9
I get the emotional attachment to Gerald Wallace both as a player, the embodiment of the team and as the last remaining ‘original Bobcat’ but to say it’s not worth getting one of the 5 best players in the league seems ridiculous to me.
Personally, I’d be more excited about getting Aaron Brooks by playing third wheel… but if that opportunity isn’t there turning down an opportunity to get Carmelo Anthony is insane.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I said months ago...
….that the only way i would trade Crash was if the Bobcats got LeBron, Kobe or Melo in return.
Now that is a real possibility and i’m kind of having second thoughts.
Per 36
Melo: 1.1 steals, 0.4 blks, 3.0 tovs
Crash: 1.8 stls, 1.2 blks, 2.2 tovs
Melo is the younger and superior offensive player. But Wallace is undoubtedly the better defender.
I’m not sure that Melo alone is enough better than Wallace to put the he Bobcats into the next level. Maybe if Anthony and CP3 team up in Charlotte….
I agree that Wallace is the better defender
But to the tune of 10-15 pts per game?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Individual defensive and offensive stats alone might not tell the WHOLE story.
If you look at advanced stats and use Defensive, Offensive, and Total win-shares then Melo and Crash are seen in a very different light.
in the 2009-10 season
Melo: 5.6 OWS, 2.4 DWS 7.9 TWS
Crash: 5.3 OWS, 6.2 DWS, 11.5 TWS
Basketball is a team sport, and while Melo might be the superior player individually, Crash is arguably a better overall team player.
by dudemanhey on Aug 27, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I cant even believe ...
this is being argued.
swith out Melo with Crash and make no other moves, and this team wins 8+ more games next year. Add in a legit point guard or a decent C and the skys the limit. How many times last year did we need a takeover, 4th quarter points to seal games and it was nowhere to be found if Jax was cold? Melo makes us an all around good team, where as Gerald makes us a good defensive team.
It's a first!
I completely agree with you
by ClipCat on Aug 27, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll tell you why...
It comes down to things that don’t show up on stat sheets. For instance, if Gerald Wallace plays great defense, and tips a pass that is scooped up by TT, passed ahead to a fast-breaking DJ or Jax for an easy basket, who gets the credit? TT gets credit for a steal and assist, and Jax gets the points. Where did the play begin? With defense from Crash. It happens at least once per game. You don’t just lose 18 or 20 ppg in the trade. You lose plays on the defensive side that Crash makes, and Carmelo doesn’t.
Exactly.
People talking like replacing Crash with Melo means we’re going to score 15 more points a game.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The Julius Peppers argument
“He does so much more that doesn’t show up on a stat sheet”
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
No... lol
It’s just an argument I can’t stand… the ‘intangibles’ argument.
I’ve seen everything trying to say why Melo isn’t as good. I think my favorite right now is ‘that he didn’t win anything with a better supporting cast’, like Gerald Wallace is MJ making everyone around him better. Lest we forget the Bobcats did nothing until last season and we got Jax (do I need to remind everyone of our record before getting Stephen Jackson).
Carmelo Anthony played in the Western conference where you cant be just over .500 and make the playoffs. Sure, he didn’t win ‘the big one’ but he took the Nuggets to three division titles.
I’ve been pretty resolute that I would prefer to see us keep Crash and get an Aaron Brooks, Devin Harris or comparable player as a facilitator… but right now if nothing changes we’re a 7th seed again. Take out Crash and add Melo and I think someone would be hard pressed to put us below 5th.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
They would hard pressed to put us there, but let's be realistic.
Orlando, Boston, and Miami will still clearly be the cream of the crop in the East. Atlanta is still a stout team an Chicago and Milwaukee are better as well. Us adding Carmelo in place of Gerald really makes us no better than any of those teams. The reason Jackson and Wallace worked so well together was because they are almost complete opposites of each other. Wallace is the efficient, all around guy, and Wallace is the scorer who’s not afraid to put up shots when needed. A Wallace and Carmelo combination would be great, but I’m just not sure about how a Jackson and Carmelo combo would work out. Some of the other ramifications we’re going to have to pay attention to as well…………..we’d be giving up pretty much all of our cap flexibility and young talent for Melo. So what would be left would be an awkward Jackson/Melo combination, the dreaded Diop would still be here, Tyrus Thomas, Collins, Livingston, Najera, Carol, and the Browns. Melo, would then become the team captain (since Crash and Felton are gone) and I’m not sure that Larry Brown would be willing to call him captain unless he could turn up his defense to another level. I’m also sure Larry would want to limit his shots. I mean, I’m sure Jordan wants a superstar like Melo, but I’m just not sure how well he and coach would co-exist.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
*and Jackson is the scorer whose not afraid to put up shots when needed.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm willing to trade JAX for Melo
not GW
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Jax for Melo gives us 2 starting SF
And as currently built with TT at PF already you are asking one of them to play SG, or TT to play C and one of Melo or Wallace to play PF. I don’t see this being a long term strategy or a wining strategy against the powerhouses in the league.
Well, Jackson is actually a SF as well.
He’s just so versatile he can be slid between both of those spots. I’m sure Melo could play SG. I just wouldn’t want him to. You’re giving him the green light for 30+ shots a night.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions
True, that last thing he would need it the word "shooting" in his position title
I was just remembering reading a article that stated that Jax was loosing some weight and getting into shape to play SG properly which I why I don’t consider him a SF now.
I still don’t see Melo playing SG though.
Yeah. I actually think Jax is more better at SG
since his defense can get shaky and he’s never met a shot he didn’t think he could make. But yeah, Melo would be kinda awkward at SG. He could probably beat Kobe’s 81 though if he was moved there.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 29, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Melo for Crash weakens the team substantially
An offense led by Melo and Jax is going to be incredibly inefficient. Sure those two will put up fifty points a night, but the team won’t be scoring more because neither scores efficiently. Then there’s the rebounding dropoff from Gerald to Melo. With nothing special at center, Diaw at PF would become a glaring weakness. TT would help, but he’s still not enough to make up the difference.
I do agree with you on Brooks and Harris. Landing either of them for Dampier would be a very nice recovery.
I’m paraphrasing a quote I heard about intangibles in baseball…
“If intangibles had that much of an impact, then you could measure them and they would no longer be intangible”
I think it applies more for baseball than basketball, but nonetheless it expresses my opinion on that argument.
by CarolinaDodger on Aug 27, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Intangibles used to be valid
Then advanced metrics came out. It’s only a matter of time until they can statistically measure “leadership.”
Talking head 1: “Kobe is better than LeBron. Trust me, just look at his stats. This season Kobe is averaging 7.9 General Pattons per game (GPPG) while LeBron is only at 3.1.”
Talking head 2: “Hey, you should know that GPPG’s are worthless! It doesn’t differentiate between actual leadership and stubbornness. Shoot, Allen Iverson had about 3 GPPG last year!”
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
I would do these two trades:
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5680433
Denver gets: Erik Dampier
Charlotte gets: Chauncey Billups
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5680480
Denver gets: Boris Diaw, Nazr Mohammed, Eduardo Najera & DJ Augustin
Charlotte gets: Carmelo Anthony
The overall net ending is this:
Denver gets: Diaw, Mohamed, Augustin, Najera & Dampier (maybe a draft pick too)
Charlotte gets: Anthony & Billups
Why Denver does it: Cut salary (Dampier cut). Get younger (Lawson and Augustin instead of Billups). Get something (anything for Melo) instead of nothing.
Why Charlotte does it: Acquire two all-stars? It’s a no brainer. The Cats might have to play some small ball, but with the line up i think they could do it and still be effective.
Bobcats Depth Chart:
PG- Billups, Livingston, Collins
SG- Jackson, Carrol, Henderson
SF – Anthony, McGuire
PF- Wallace, D Brown
C Thomas, K Brown, Diop
And obviously other lineups could switch players into various spots on the floor, i.e., K Brown and Thomas on the floor together would slide Thomas back to PF.
by dudemanhey on Aug 27, 2010 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't see why Denver would want it
Sure, they get around $20 million expiring between Damp, Naz and Deej…. but they also take on $12 million in bad money from Diaw and Najera… basically cancelling out the money saved by dealing Billups.
Ultimately you’re asking them to trade two all-stars for Diaw and Najera with $20 million expiring. If they kept Anthony all season they’d get $17 million expiring.
Maybe if we threw in multiple picks, Henderson too… maybe also found a way to take JR Smith, but I really don’t see this is probable as is.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Extra draft picks
D Brown instead of Najera.
Sending Back 3 mil in salary with Shelden WIlliams.
Basically: Melo for Diaw, Mohammed, DJ and (whatever filler Denver prefers)
y would denver do that??
we have to give up wallace…lets just face it
Here's why (from above)
Why Denver does it: Cut salary (Dampier cut). Get younger (Lawson and Augustin instead of Billups). Get something (anything for Melo) instead of nothing.
James the Aussie...
You hearing anything from your people? I know you have some connections at the arena, right?
I'm not getting involved in this stuff again
I can say I have heard a few things… but I’m going to remain as skeptical as everyone else and believe nothing until I get some form of confirmation.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Not interested.
Let’s be realists here. Calling people idiotic for their opinions one way or another isn’t going to change anyone’s mind and at this point the words “I guarantee” have as much weight as a fairy’s wings.
Right now we know that Carmelo Anthony is one of the best in the game. No statistical fudging or saying otherwise will make that statement untrue.
We also know that Gerald Wallace has proven himself to be a far better player than anyone outside of Charlotte ever gave him credit for. He’s not as good as Anthony but he’s in the neighborhood. What doesn’t show up on his stat line is his selflessness and his incredible drive. In those two intangible and un-ratable aspects Gerald Wallace is at the top of the league. Nobody tries harder in the NBA and these two aspects of his personality make him a great leader. The trick is in factoring those facets of Wallace’s game in comparison to ‘Melo. For me personally, there are very few players in the league I’d rather have than Crash.
Carmelo Anthony is one of them – under the right circumstances.
Unfortunately, right now those circumstances DO…NOT…EXIST.
Forget his skills. Forget the fact that any team he signs with will live or die by whether or not Anthony shows up on court with his “A” game in his pocket. Put all of that aside for the moment. That’s all flash and dazzle and we need to be looking at the substance of the deal right now.
What we have is an incredibly talented player – again, that’s a given. He’s also a player with designs on moving to the Knicks with his buddy CP3. This summer we’ve seen what he behaves like when his club doesn’t give him what he wants. The overriding fact here is that anyone taking Anthony right now is getting a 1-year rental. There are ZERO guarantees right now that he won’t jet right out of town – especially when you consider the rather large extension sitting unsigned on his agent’s desk right now. Why trade a happy and outstanding player for a disgruntled player with already clear goals that will take him elsewhere?
I know there is a desire for instant gratification, but bringing Anthony to Charlotte under these circumstances will ultimately put the Bobcats in worse need to rebuild from scratch than any of the absurd moves that Bob Johnson made in the early years of the franchise. We get one season and then all hell breaks loose. I believe in Michael Jordan, but I’m not ready to bet the next 5 years of the franchise on MJ’s ability to make Anthony drink the Bobcats’ Kool-ade.
But wait! You say that if we get ‘Melo it will make CP3 want to join him here in Charlotte? Show me that in writing, otherwise it’s just fantasy.
As things currently stand, this trade places ALL risk on the future of the Charlotte Bobcats and none whatsoever on either Denver or ’Melo.
Show me in writing that Carmelo Anthony will be in a Charlotte uniform for at least 3 seasons and I’ll trade Wallace AND Jax to get him. Otherwise it’s just bad basketball.
Oh, and before anyone asks, yes I’ve heard from 2 of my 3 people regarding this and no, I don’t remember a blessed thing about what they told me. I’ve gotten this very bad case of amnesia that strikes whenever I’m logged in to RoF. Sorry.
I’ve been saying for 2 months that Jordan isn’t through maneuvering yet and nothing I"ve seen or heard has changed that. I’m still waiting for it. I will tell you this however… Since the CP3 fiasco, there have been 3 large deals that have almost come to pass and fell through. One is definitely dead, but the other two are still being tinkered with to see if an alternate deal can be worked out. I’m not trying to tease here, but I can confirm that the front office hasn’t been killing the summer having karaoke keggers to see which exec can sing California Gurl the best.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
what do you think about bringing in Brooks in a 3 team deal sending Melo to Houston. I love this deal what do you think Ourday? Or a deal just bringing in Billups?
I love this idea...
It may seem from my comments that I am not in favor of getting involved in the Melo fiasco, but that is not true at all. I think we have great trade pieces to send a Melo deal over the top. I just don’t want him. I see other gaping holes on our team that I would rather upgrade first. I know I’m not Ourday, but your comment made me want to clarify my stance…
+ 1
Forget Melo
If the Bobcats traded Dampier & DJ for Billups that would be a serious upgrade.
pg – Billups, Liivngston, Collins
sg – Jackson , Carroll, Henderson
sf – Wallace, D Brown, Najera McGuire
pf – Thomas, Najera D Brown Mcguire
c – K Brown, Nazr & Diop
That is an upgrade form 09-10.
by dudemanhey on Aug 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Co-sign. I'd be way more interested to see what this team
could do with Billups running the floor than Melo with no Crash.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh lord, Kwame is starting?
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
well nazr started a lot last year and did fine
Kwame is in no way an upgrade over Nazr besides contract
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
It will be Center by committe again this season anyway
and if Diaw doesn’t get dealt soon, then we’ll see plenty of nonchalant Center action!
by dudemanhey on Aug 27, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm all in favor of a three-way.
Wait – are we still talking basketball?
If we can get Brooks I’m all in favor of it. I’m less excited about Billups, but I know that the team is burning up a lot of man hours working the phones to get the best possible bang for the Dampier buck.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd much rather have Brooks as well
He’s younger and is just as good in my opinion. Billups is old. There’s no way around it.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Please don't tell me...
the deal that is dead is one involving Jose Calderon…I’m so sick of hearing his name.
Whoops..l should probably reread my post before I post...
I meant please tell me the deal that is dead is involving Jose Calderon. You get the picture…
Glad to have a voice of reason here. Lol.
I’m like you. Under the right circumstances, I’d welcome Melo to Charlotte with open arms. They just don’t exists right now.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Extend and Trade
The fact that Charlotte is one of the teams he listed as a preferred destination means he signs his extension BEFORE the trade. NO team will offer Denver his worth if he leaves after one year. The notion of him jetting to NY, or anywhere for that matter, is irrelevant because he will already have 4 years left on his contract at the time he is traded. The whole point of the list is for the purposes of the “extend and trade”.
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 2:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Did Carmelo actually mention us or was it just the writer?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/08/26/report-carmelo-anthony-wants-out-of-denver/ This is where I heard we were on the list.
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 3:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is correct
Extend and Trade is an actual provision that doesn’t get used to often. Someone alluded to it earlier, but it has a 30 day expiration on the extension. This is off the top of my head, anyone have the specific details?
48 hours, I posted a link a little further down.
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 3:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ourday, great post
Just curious. You have season tickets right? Where are your seats?
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't have season tickets.
We came within a hair’s breadth of purchasing them this summer and less than a week later my wife lost her job. (Technically she didn’t lose it – it’s still where it always was, it’s just that if she goes there now they have some new guy doing it)
It’s been a tough summer at the WillCome household, but we’ve survived. Season tickets will have to wait a while though. Call us crazy, but luxury items like electricity and food took a higher priority. I feel so some-timey!
FAKE FAN! FAKE FAN!
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean come on...
The arena is nice…just live there…I’ll come and visit often!
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a fake fan at all
For some reason I was under that impression. I was just wondering if any of you guys had a place to meet during the games. (And is the orange blazer guy on here?)
Ourday, I certainly hope your luck turns around. And the Bobcats’ too!
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont know if the blazer guy is on here...
but i heard he is the owner of ruth chris steak house…might be wrong tho
Magic Barry is a magician
I don’t think he owns Ruth Chris.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I can;t remember what his name is
But hes in the construction business. Can’t remember which one. Pretty positive he doesn’t own Ruth Chris
by GOBOBCATS24 on Aug 28, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
He’s a magician, he owns Ruth Chris, he’s a construction man…
I’m pretty sure he’s The Most Interesting Man in the World
Gerald Wallace is the way, the truth, and the light
haha well which blazer guy?
theres the one sitting close to court side who is probably in his mid 40’s who always screams out Viva la France when diaw scores
and then theres the old guy who is always on the globo-tron who is wearing a orange blazer and he dances all the time
I was talking about older thin bald dancing Orange blazer guy
He also used to dance at the Hornets games in a Purple blazer.
“Magic Barry”
The newer Bobcats blazer guy has curly hair. Don’t know anything about him.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
yea the younger guy
thats who i thought u were talking bout
Like James has said, i believe that MJ and Melo are talking and they would have some kind of agreement that says he will sing an extension if not the MJ would have no interest. And yes it would have to be a word of mouth type thing but if he does come here and dont sign the extension that for one we could deal him out to another team for a good pg and other good assets (not saying thats why we want him here just saying if he does not sing an extension) and two Melo would be cut from Jordan brand and loose a nice friendship their. I dont see him “Jetting” out of town.
I win as if im used to it, and i loose as if i like it for a change.
GW and Melo
Are 3 and 4 in the Yahoo! BDL SF rankings. And in that article they state they’re really interchangable, supporting arguments that Wallace is better because his offense is better than Melo’s defense.
So why should we get rid of our franchise star for a one year scorer?
And the Nuggets have said they want young players and draft picks. I’d rather figure a way to keep Wallace and play him at the PF position, or play a 3 forward set like team USA is doing.
But if it comes down to Melo or Wallace, I’m taking Wallace every day of the week.
Don't forget that almost doubled salary Melo demands over Wallace
GW’s contract gives us flexibility as a non-luxury tax team.
other reasons
Wallace has said he’s committed to the Bobcats, Melo clearly wants out of Denver, not even being willing to sit it out for 1 whole year before skipping off to New York. Why would we want a player like that, who also only shows up in big contests (hey that fits the Bobcats MO!)
totally owning Lebron, but getting schooled by Granger.
Exactly. Everyone wants to instantly throw it on some kind of emotional attachment to Wallace.
Like did people forget the man was just an All-Star last year? Or one of 4 players in NBA history to average over 2 steals and 2 blocks over a season? Or that he is one of the best defenders period in the league. Or that his shooting has improved pretty much every year? And that he makes half the money?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Can everyone stop saying the "one year rental?"
Obviously no one wants Melo for just the one year and then see him skip off to NY.
We’re all talking about signing the extension….
If we can get Melo for at least 3 yrs here in Charlotte….then by all means go for it!!
Just tired of everyone and the one year rental saying….we get it! We’re talking about more than one year when trading for him.
As inconvenient a truth as it may be...
there is still no signature on an extension and nobody can force ‘Melo to sign it as a condition of the trade. The moment he signs, the Nuggets own him long-term and he knows it. They can promise they’ll play nice and trade him, but that still involves a measure of trust on Anthony’s part.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Though they can’t force him to sign an extension as part of a trade they can have a provision in the extension that says he will be traded.
Something to the tune of ‘If Carmelo Anthony remains a member of the Denver Nuggets 30 days from the signing of this article this contract will become null and void’
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
It’s actually only 48 hours. The nuggets have 48 hours to trade Melo after the extension is signed or the extension becomes void. That’s why Melo basically gets to pick his new team. Denver isn’t going to get him to sign without a trade already in place, therefore Melo knows his destination at the time of the signing so no amount of trust has to be placed in each other. Another big plus that we made his “list”, if they make a trade with us we have reason to believe he would then sign his extension, therefore he won’t just be here for one season.
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 2:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 2:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Excellent
For those that don’t want to click the link.
Nice
Also good to note that this could be the way Houston could send Aaron Brooks to us on an extension, thus eliminating too many players trading hands in a 3 way deal.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Thanks guys
Yet another reason why RoF is THE destination for Bobcats fans. I learned something new today about trade rules and I learned it without being called ignorant or stupid. It was also information revealed by several people one piece at a time until the full facts were known. (James started it off and others added specifics to shed more light on the subject.)
Thanks for the information y’all. This joint rocks!
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too...
I had never heard of Extend and trade…
Sign and trade was all I had ever heard of…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad I could help a little. I’m new here but I’m liking the enthusiasm.
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 9:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
+1. Exactly, no way Denver trades him for anything without his extension being signed.
by Mike in KM on Aug 27, 2010 2:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How much longer will Gwall be able to play at his current rate is my question
And why I would love trading for Melo who is years younger and has not had a major injury.
Crash plays at such a destructive pace (why we love him) and his body IMO will break down soon.
Also, Denver wants youth and picks… I know this is prettty much impossible, but what if we could give up DJ and Hendo along with Damp and Diaw (pick if needed) maybe for Melo + Billups? Imagine the crazy lineups Brown could do haha
GSO
We would have to bring Billups along as well for me to sign off on the trade.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you on that point Mike.
As last season wore on I became increasingly worried that the insane number of minutes Brown was demanding of his main starters would shave years off the health of both Wallace and Jackson. The moves made this summer haven’t sufficiently strengthened our bench enough to ensure that these two workhorses will get any significant reduction in their minutes this coming season.
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Our Rookies are not rookies...and look decent
More PT for Brown this year…Derr Devil Brown…not Kwame
by andrewlail76 on Aug 27, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
All I know is
whoever we get, should a trade occur, I think I speak for everyone when I say, let’s trade them for Jose Calderon!
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
LOL
Yeah, Calderon scares me to death. Stay away MJ, stay away!
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Please don't say anything...
about Calderon, I’m so sick of that name!! :(
Nah, I still want Oden.
If for no reason other than the Photoshop opportunities!
My sources can beat up your sources
by Ourdaywillcome on Aug 27, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
One more thing I think people should think about:
How many games last season did the Bobcats throw away in the last quarter, or the final minutes?
Looking at 82games.com clutch scoring ratings from 2009-10 look at the difference between Melo and Crash. They define a ‘clutch’ situation as the final 5 minutes of the game with both teams within 5 points of each other.
Gerald Wallace: Shoots 0.324% in clutch situations, 18% of his clutch shots are blocked and per 48 in clutch situations he scores 14.4 points
Carmelo Anthony: Shoots 0.427% in clutch situations, 11% of his clutch shots are blocked and per 48 in clutch situations he scores 47 points… 47
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
We all talk about PG and C
but our biggest weakness is the lack of a scorer. We cannot shoot the basketball or score efficiently at the end of games. Did anyone watch the Orlando series?
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 27, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Great points James...it IS about points
In the NBA most playoff teams play good defense. That is why you MUST, repeat, MUST have scorers who can plant the dagger in the clutch. I love Crash. He’s the perfect complimentary player to a championship team…he could be the Pippen to someone’s Jordan. But we need a Jordan-like player who can be that deadly scorer, and Melo is the closest thing available anytime within the next 3 years (short of absolute luck in the lottery).
We still need those pieces... no doubt
We need a pass first PG who wont turn the ball over, and we need a center who can own the paint. That doesn’t change.
To me though focusing on getting a PG and C solely is tunnel vision. What if last season we said:
“Well, we don’t really need a better SG because we have Raja, Flip and Henderson is up and coming, so why trade for Stephen Jackson?”
Good teams are consistently looking to get better however possible, and BDL rankings or not I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Charlotte fan base who think Gerald Wallace is a comparable player to Carmelo Anthony. Obviously the wild card is team chemistry… and nobody can predict what a change that would be.
The reason I’m arguing this so virulently was based on how wrong I was this time last year about Emeka Okafor. I realize in hindsight that my judgment was clouded by an emotional response when we traded him. For how much he was getting paid he wasn’t good enough to be worth $10 million per, but I didn’t see that at the time. I feel like people have now inflated Gerald Wallace to these epic, all encompassing levels because of how we as a fan base view his tenacity, his where-with-all and his heart.
Gerald Wallace is outstanding partly because he’s willing to do what others aren’t; he rebounds like a madman, throws himself around like a lunatic and we love it. He has to do this however because the organization hasn’t supported him with a decent rebounding C or PF, and haven’t gotten a low post PF. Wallace’s stats are amazing because there has been nobody else to do it and he’s been glad to.
We still have a huge problem at center… but we may have the athletic, defensive, rebounding PF we’ve needed in Tyrus Thomas. So now we have that there will be less of a need for Wallace to take on those defensive and rebounding roles. Now the Bobcats need to move into the next phase and see what they need to address next… scoring.
If the choice really is Crash for Melo (which we’re all just randomly speculating) then the Bobcats need to make a decision:
- In 2009-10 we were 1st in the NBA in defense and 28th in offense.
- In 2009-10 Denver were 3rd in the NBA in offense and 20th in defense.
Do we want to remain the best team in the NBA at stopping people, but never being able to finish the job? Or do we want to try and improve that scoring and be a top 10 or top 15 team in both areas? Well rounded teams win championships.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
We wouldn't have said this because we needed an SG upgrade last season.
we don’t really need a better SG because we have Raja, Flip and Henderson is up and coming, so why trade for Stephen Jackson
Raja, Flip and Hendo are all back-up SG’s on a good team. Same with DJ, Livingston & Collins PG. Same with Kwame, Nazr & Diop at C.
Jackson & Wallace do not need to be upgraded at SG & SF.
And we don't need an upgrade on scoring now?
Regardless of position we need to score more points
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Well, considering Jackson and Wallace were our leading scorers,
I don’t think they are the problem. More scoring off the bench, more scoring from the point, more scoring from the post. Jackson and Wallace have done their jobs.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Therein lies the problem.
When your leading scorers are 21.1 and 18.2 PPG respectively there is an issue.
They did their jobs to the best of their ability, but just as Wallace needed to pick up the rebounding slack we need someone to pick up the scoring slack until we get that bench established.
Nothing would make me happier than to snap my fingers and have the San Antonio Spurs bench… but we don’t; and until we do we need to get as much scoring as we can… even if that means trading 18.2 PPG for 28.2 PPG
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
So who is there to replace the defense that will be lost?
Jackson, for all that he achieved last year, still proved to be a player that can get rattled very easily and lose his focus quickly on the defensive end. Felton, our best guard defender, is a New York Knick, Tyson Chandler is a Maverick, and Theo Ratliff is a Laker. So, after trading Wallace, we’re losing 4 of our best 5 defenders (Tyrus Thomas) to replace them with a bunch of scorers. Like I say, our team identity would be gone completely and I doubt we’ll be anywhere close to the league in top defense. Carmelo belongs in New York with coach D’antoni whose whole game plan is to try to outscore the opponent no matter what expense there is to pay on defense. Larry is the complete opposite.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Tyrus Thomas
The defensive upgrade from Boris Diaw to Tyrus Thomas changes the landscape of the Bobcats a lot.
In a backup role Thomas averaged 10.4 rebounds per 36 and 2.5 blocks per 36
Care to know what happened to Gerald?
His rebounds per 36 dropped to 8.1 (2 less per game than before the aquisition) and his blocks trended down equally.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Perhaps Gerald was tiring out from playing so many minutes? It’s not like he and Diaw weren’t still playing together a lot, and some of Thomas’s minutes were at center.
Maybe, but it was also somewhat predictable
Once the Bobcats’ playoff position was secure, Wallace’s rebounding tailed off even more (just over 5 RB per game the last 6 games). That has to be a contributing factor, too. And of course, these are small sample sizes.
While the odds are likely pretty slim that Wallace improves on last year’s rebounding numbers, there’s not much evidence that Thomas makes Wallace’s defense and rebounding expendable either, especially considering who the Bobcats have at center.
And Jackson's points would take a hit if Carmelo came
the same as Wallace’s numbers took a hit when Tyrus came.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
PPG is a poor metric
Carmelo gets those extra ten shots on about eight extra shots and has more turnovers, too. Once you subtract those possessions from the offense (along with the possessions lost from the rebounds Gerald wouldn’t be hauling in), you end up with a worse offensive team.
And the Bobcats aren’t suddenly going to play at Denver’s pace so long as Larry Brown is coach. So even though Carmelo would still continue to use about 1/3 of his team’s possessions here, he wouldn’t score 28 PPG under Brown.
Exactly. I think that's the key that everyone is forgetting about.
Coach Brown is still the man in charge of what the team does on the floor. And no matter if he had the best 5 scorers in the world on his team, he’s still going to be preaching defense to them.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
As a team they averaged 99.2 points per game, outscoring their opponents by 3.8 ppg
We averaged 95.3 points per game, outscoring our opponents by 1.8 ppg
If we all want to pretend that scoring isn’t an issue for us, fine, I’ll make a note of it for next time.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 28, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
You upgrade your weaknesses wherever you can
A team weakness was scoring so even if the SF position wasn’t a scoring weakness there is a big difference in a 18.2 ppg player and a 28.2 ppg player.
Before we traded Raja Bell he was averaging 18.8 ppg per 48 at the SG position, yet we traded for Jax because he was an upgrade. SG wasn’t our most pressing issue, but we did so anyway.
And before we get back to this argument of offense v. defense I would like to point out that according to 82 games the opponent per 48 scoring against both is thus:
- Anthony: 20.8 ppg
- Wallace: 19.9 ppg
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
But Raja Bell wasn't an All-Star caliber player.
Not for one second was I saying “no, we already have enough SG’s, we don’t need more”. That’s for the Hendo fan club, which I’ve never been too much a part of. People are getting all uppity about Melo’ because of the extra marketing opportunities he brings to the team. On the court, his impact in place of Wallace won’t be anywhere near double what Crash brings. I think you guys are now starting to severely undermine Crash’ skills now because he’s being compared to a “superstar” now. The rest of the NBA was exposed last year to how good Crash was, and for the first time ever, we heard of other teams’ fans talking about “the Bobcats are my second favorite team”. You know why? Because of the never say die attitude we displayed. Even in a sweep, Crash was doing things to make fans around the world say “wow, where did this guy come from”. We’re not going to get that heart with Melo but we would be paying him double. I mean, you guys may see that much of a difference in between them, but the fact remains that both are top 5 at their position. Sure, we need a scoring upgrade, but getting Melo for Crash isn’t just moving forward, it’s taking steps back before going forward again. Like I say, Melo can’t play PG or Center so come playoff time, it’s only going to be worse than it was last year.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I completely understand and respect the argument, I really do
But I still don’t see Crash for Melo as taking a step back.
Is there any concern that last year was the exception, not the rule for Gerald Wallace?
Before last season when we traded Okafor he was a 6.8 rpg guy for the Bobcats. Because the organization miscalculated in getting Chandler he was forced to become a 10 rpg guy. A lot of this has to do with the rebounding deficiencies at the 4 by Boris Diaw and no reliable rebounding center. Now we have Tyrus Thomas to take some of the rebounding duties away from Crash, and he can return to the 7 rpg guy he was for the 5 seasons preceeding.
This is the exact same situation that occurred when we had no defense at the 2. When that happened Gerald had to play on the ball a lot more which resulted in steals. We get Raja Bell, and Wallace’s steals per game dropped off by 35%.
Crash is a swiss army knife of a player. He’ll do anything you need and do it well. Ultimately though I think the Bobcats would be a more well rounded team with Carmelo Anthony at the 3.
I see it as yeah, we take a step back on defense, but two forward on offense… and in the end that’s progress.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 28, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
How much progress though and at what cost?
Enough progress to jump to the 5th or 6th seed instead of the 7th? Because we still wouldn’t be able to match up with the top teams of the East. Now look at the aftermath. Carmelo signed to 17.8 million, Stephen Jackson, 8.4, Desagana Diop, 6.48, Matt Carrol 4.3, Najera 2.8, Boris Diaw 9.0, Tyrus Thomas 6.6………………………………So, as you can see, now the only financial flexibility we would have would be to wait for Boris to come off the cap. Sure, we have an offensive upgrade at SF, but we lose all of our ability to upgrade at the Point and at the Center. You can put LeBron James on the Bobcats surrounded by Jackson, Tyrus, and some bums, and they are still nowhere near ready to compete with the Celtics, Heat, or Magic in the East. Like I say, people have been sold on this being the ticket to landing Chris Paul, but there is no guarantee of that. So, what happens when Melo comes on a three year extension, but Tony Parker decides to stay with the Spurs and Paul decides to join Amare in N.Y. We’re then left with a max player surrounded by marginal talent which is good for at the best, 5th in the playoffs. After three years of this mess, who’s to say Anthony wouldn’t pull the same crap he’s pulling now?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The 5th or 6th seed should be our goal.
Right now, unchanged the Bobcats are a marginal playoff team at best.
Baby steps.
The next step should be to get to the 5th or 6th seed… then improve to get to the 3rd or 4th and so on. I fail to see what the top 3 teams in the East have anything to do with it.
I also love that people keep bringing up the cap hit. Who exactly have the Bobcats gotten through free agency? When we had cap space who exactly did we bring in? The problem with the cap has nothing to do with signing Carmelo Anthony for 17.8 million, last time I checked the Lakers are doing just fine with Kobe at max… our problems are from Diop, Carroll, Najera and Diaw…. $20 million spent on marginal players.
What’d so bad with 5th in the East? We play the 4th seed (likely Atlanta or Chicago and have a MUCH better chance of winning that series than sitting in 7th and waiting to get swept by the Celtics or Heat.
Finally, “After three years of this mess, who’s to say Anthony wouldn’t pull the same crap he’s pulling now?” and who’s to say after 2 years Gerald Wallace doesn’t decline his player option realizing he’s worth more than $10 million and heads elsewhere?
If it’s Tony Parker, Chris Paul or bust for this team we’re in deep trouble. Personally, I don’t consider Stephen Jackson and Tyrus Thomas marginal talents, but you do.
You are acting like the Bobcats with Wallace can compete with the top teams in the East right now and getting Melo would ruin that.
Our barely over .500 record and 4-0 sweep in the playoffs says otherwise.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 28, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Right now, unchanged, the Bobcats are a marginal playoff team, with flexibility.
Meaning, we have pieces to improve our team without having to give up our best players. We still have Dampier and Mohammed’s contracts to try to improve on our REAL WEAKNESSES, PG and C. Trading for Melo maybe does provide these baby steps that you want, but after that, we would have NO FLEXIBILITY at all to surround Anthony with a better cast than what he has in Denver now. We would be void of all of our young talent, all of our draft picks, and all of our cap room for Melo.
You fail to see what the top teams have to do with it? How? This is the NBA right? The point is to win. And my point is that those baby steps are going to mean nothing when you lose all ability to improve your team. Like I said, I have no interest in becoming the Denver Nuggets of the East. When you have a max player like Carmelo, you have to build around him. Denver had other pieces to put around Melo. We would have nothing. No bench. Still no decent Center or PG, and no cap room to get either.
And you’re right. Those marginal players are what’s holding us back. That was my point entirely. But do you think we would all the sudden be able to magically get rid of them? Diop and Carrol will more than likely be here for the duration of their contract. And that’s past the point where CP3 would become a free agent. True enough we’ve never gotten a great player with cap room, but that’s the exact thing that we’re banking on now. That CP3 would come to Charlotte to play with Melo. If the cap room isn’t there, CP3 isn’t coming period. If we traded for Melo, we would have to then probably part with Jackson or another valuable member of our rotation just to unload Diop and the other overpaid scrubs just to give ourselves a chance at signing Paul in 2 years.TWO YEARS!!! You don’t have to tell me about cap room. I’ve written several articles since I’ve joined this site talking about how cap room is overrated. But assets are not. And if we trade for Melo, we leave ourselves no cap room and no assets. So then we can’t make the team better through trades, the draft, or free agency. Exactly how do we improve then?
5th in the East is bad because that should never be your team’s ceiling. And that’s exactly what it would be for years. This team in it’s current form looks bad now, but let’s say we were able to keep Crash and actually fill the hole at PG with Damp’s contract traded for CP3. Would 5th still be our ceiling?
We did I ever say Stephen Jackson and Tyrus Thomas are marginal talents? I’ve always said Stephen Jackson is top 5 at his position and Tyrus is an up and comer. However, you can’t look at it in all black and white. Stephen Jackson is good because he’s not afraid to take a lot of questionable shots. Melo is as well. They may look good on paper together, but on the court, it’s not going to work nearly as well as you think.
No, the Bobcats can’t compete with the top tier teams in the East right now, but they can always get better with time together and trades that’ll help an actual position of need. Like I said before, Gerald Wallace AND Stephen Jackson can be starters for a championship team. It’s the people you surround them with that makes the difference. For some reason, all of the sudden, Gerald Wallace has to be the one to go for us to move ahead? How? Melo would ruin our chances to compete with the top teams in the east. I already told you what our salary cap is going to look like if we traded for him. Exactly how do you think this team would improve around Anthony with all of those bums still around tying down the cap? Keep in mind, we have no draft picks and would have no cap room. Our best asset through trade would be Boris Diaw. And he’s not going to really be a valuable asset until next year. So how do we improve a team around Melo? It worked for Miami because they set themselves up to sign three max free agents. They had to purge their whole roster to get their. We don’t have that luxury. We also aren’t a tax free state so good free agents signing for the minimum just to play with Jax and Melo can’t be compared to Miami either.
You really sound like an outsider with that last statement. The team started 3-9 and improved to be in the chase for 5th in the East up until the final days of the season. Why is it that the thought that “with a training camp together, this team can improve” is all gone now? With that roster a full year, we realistically could’ve probably won 50 games. And you watched that 4-0 sweep yourself. You really going to tell me Crash was the problem now? And look around the NBA. Several teams got swept. Including the Spurs. Had we fallen to 8th or moved up to 5th and 6th, we wouldn’t have been swept in the playoffs. However, we fell right at 7th and had to play the RED HOT Orlando Magic. Felton kept getting killed and we kept leaving them open for 3. Nothing Crash did made me say, “oh, if we could improve on him we could’ve won”. No, I’m saying the same thing I said when the season ended. We need a better PG and a better C and more scoring off the bench. Melo doesn’t help those problems, and the proposed trade only adds more to those problems. Baby steps don’t mean that much when you’re only walking a few feet.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why don't you want us to be the Denver Nuggets of the East?
A 53 win team last year, 5 playoff appearances in the last 6 years… I would kill for that to be us.
Lets talk about things that are tangible. We can sit here are say ‘We need a PG and C’ until the cows come home… but who do we get? No speculation, no ‘what if’… who do we get? Who is officially on the block?
I’ll tell you who is on the block, Carmelo Anthony.
Who do we use the expiring contracts on? Have you seen the free agent pool next year? Yao who may retire? Tony Parker who wouldn’t come to Charlotte anyway? Let’s focus on what we can get, rather than what we’d like. Right now it appears that Carmelo Anthony is a realistic goal.
We did I ever say Stephen Jackson and Tyrus Thomas are marginal talents?
Right here:
So, what happens when Melo comes on a three year extension […] We’re then left with a max player surrounded by marginal talent
We can stick our heads in the sand and pretend we’re a 4th or 5th seed now, or we can realize that the balance of power in the NBA is in the East now, and the Bobcats staying pat isn’t good enough. If that makes me an ‘outsider’ then call me Matt freakin’ Dillon. If we want to pretend that everything is peachy and Matt Carroll and Eduardo Najera were the missing pieces… then fine, let’s all be blissfully ignorant.
I never said ‘Crash was he problem’ not once… but it doesn’t take a genius to see that if Crash is an 18.7 PER guy while allowing 15.9 PER against him he’s an overall +2.8 player… very good, no doubt; but Carmelo Anthony is a 25.4 PER guy while allowing 15.3 PER against him that’s a +10.1 player. That allows for points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks and any other metric justification for why Crash is better. There is no statistical evidence that Gerald Wallace is better than Carmelo Anthony.
Sorry, but we’re not going to get an All-Star caliber PG or C through free agency… not going to happen. We need to build through the draft and make smart trades; in the event we can get Carmelo Anthony for Gerald Wallace it’s a smart trade, just as trading up from Raja Bell to Stephen Jackson was a smart trade.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Because CARMELO is turning on those same Denver Nuggets now.
The same team that’s won all those games all those year all of the sudden to him lacks direction. And I was being generous when I said we would be the Nuggets of the East. The difference is the Nuggets have Chauncey Billups, we don’t, and we won’t.
I never said let’s sit on those deals and let them expire. I said let’s TRADE those players for people that we actually need. You saying we need to build through the draft and make smart trades. Ok, so, go ahead and cancel the draft picks out that we do have and cancel out the smart trades too because there would be no one left to trade. I mean, sure, we have players to trade. But who wants them? Honestly. Who is really going to take Diop off of our hands to give ourselves a chance at CP3 in TWO YEARS??? Who else wants to be superfriends with Melo to come here? Crash makes HALF the money that Melo does. Melo is not double the talent of Crash. Combine the fact that we’re paying double for Melo that we would with Crash, AND TRADING AWAY ALL OF OUR ASSETS, and where does that leave us? WIth Melo, no draft picks, no cap room to sign Paul if we wanted to, and no other players to trade to upgrade PG. Our real position of concern. Just tell me, how is this “ultimate plan” supposed to work out after we trade for Melo. People are just so in love with superstars that they fail to realize the bad that comes with them. I mean, you guys are getting it twisted like I’m saying Melo isn’t good. No. Not saying that. But I say Melo is closer to Joe Johnson skill wise than he is to Wade and LeBron. Would I love to have Melo? Yes. Would I be willing to include Crash on a Melo deal? Sure. Am I willing to trade away our best player on a modest salary, our remaining draft picks, all of our expiring deals, and our best young talent for Melo when I already know what his supporting cast is going to be for 2 years? No. That supporting cast just isn’t good enough. And us trading for Melo isn’t going to instantly put us above Chicago, Milwaukee, or Atlanta definitely won’t put us on the level of Orlando, Miami, or Boston. Those are all still better TEAMS. They may not have good ol’ superstar Melo like us, but they are still all better built. Unless we have three superstars like Miami (not possible), then we need to build a full TEAM. And PG and C are a part of the team. Rondo and Shaq/Perkins/J.O, Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah, Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard, Mike Bibby and Al Horford, Brandon Jennings and Andrew Bogut. Yes, we would have Melo, but those teams will still use those weaknesses to exploit us the same way the Magic did. Melo isn’t going to stop us from getting torched by an effective PG or low post game.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The teams you mentioned drafted well... we didn't
For the Magic, Howard and Nelson were picks… Atlanta selected Horford… the Bucks took Bogut and Jennings and the Bulls got Rose, Deng and Noah with daft picks.
When was the last time a championship team was traded for? Boston… and that was because they had a superstar in Paul Pierce to team Garnett and Allen with.
How you perceive Carmelo Anthony as turning on his team, fine… he demanded a trade. Did we express the same concern with Stephen Jackson? After all, he demanded a trade.
We would be the most hypocritical fanbase in the NBA if we were to chide anyone for their behavior; ask Stephen Jackson and Tyrus Thomas if they were model citizens.
I’ve still yet to see any other deal materialize for Erick Dampier, not even an inkling. I think we all know there is no way the Bobcats keep him, pay him and use him as an expiring… they will be either trading him or cutting him in 2.5 weeks.
We had an opportunity to get a center via trade, and we didn’t do it. Al Jefferson could have been ours if we wanted him. You know how the only sticking point in getting Al Jefferson to Dallas was their unwillingness to send Dampier without also a bad contract? Well… we got Dampier a day earlier. We could have sent him alone with picks for Jefferson and we didn’t do it.
Now who’s on the block? I haven’t heard of any point guards mentioned other than Calderon and Ford, as well as Billups as Hollinger asserts provided Melo moves.
There are no centers on the trading block.
Who do you think is going to come available?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Yes, the teams I mentioned drafted well, but again, how exactly do you expect us to draft well
with no draft picks? We’ve traded most of them away already, and the ones not traded so far would have to be a part of the Denver package.
I realize the last time a championship team was traded for was when Boston did it. But keep in mind, that’s the Boston Celtics. Not the Charlotte Bobcats. That’s Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish and history there. We haven’t had a chance to even establish a history yet. They also had valuable pieces to make the trades to pull off. Al Jefferson being the center piece. We don’t have anything close to do that to trade before or after Melo gets here.
There is a huge difference between Denver and Golden State and the trade demands of Carmelo and Stephen Jackson. Jackson had a legitimate gripe. After an upset in the playoffs over the number 1 seed Mavericks, the Warriors really didn’t make an extra effort to keep that team together (Matt Barnes, Jason Richardson, Baron Davis) and began missing the playoffs every year again. Compare that to the Denver Nuggets, who were just considered championship contenders a few months ago. Their situations don’t compare at all.
Us seeing deals not about to materialize doesn’t mean that GM’s aren’t still talking. Of course we don’t know anything. But 95% of the league can be had for the right price. There aren’t many untouchables.
And like I say, I don’t know who is available and who isn’t, but giving away EVERYTHING for Melo just isn’t the way to handle this one. I don’t know of anyone who will become available, but give it time. A few weeks ago, we never knew Melo would be available. I know Damp has a deadline, but hell, that doesn’t mean just at the first big name that comes up.
And you’ve yet to tell me how the Carmelo thing is supposed to work out for the best after this year. After all the shock and excitement about Carmelo comes to Charlotte, what happens after all of that? Are we a better team? Who knows? Maybe. Slightly. But look a full year down the line. We won’t be in position to draft or pick up a free agent for anything other than the mid-level. We’ll have Carmelo, Jackson, Diop, Carrol, and Tyrus pretty much taking up the whole cap. Is that a situation you really think Melo is going to be happy with?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
5th or 6th Seed?
Not much of a goal. I’d shoot for seeds 1 to 4 and then target the Eastern Conference Finals.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Another goal would be
the thinnest RoF column ever.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know right. I'm not telling people we won't be pretty good wit Melo,
but that’s really going to be our ceiling. Well, at least the way I see it now. Of course we can’t tell who will be traded next year or what now, but how it’s looking now, from a competitive standpoint, I think we’re better off keeping the bargain All-Star and other assets than just trading everything away for a slightly better All-Star.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm a fan no matter what
I also trust that MJ & LB will make the right decision to make the Bobcats the best possible team. If they can find a way to get both GW and Melo here they will.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
I’ll say the same thing I said when the Bobcats signed Larry Hughes, “trust in Larry Brown”. If the Bobcats make this move, then I’m on board with it. If they don’t then I’m on board with that as well. If they do though, I’m going to be anticipating Paul for a long time. And I hate anticipation.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Larry Hughes
the one exception for me. He cost us a seed.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
PER, and by extension, Opponent PER aren't very useful metrics.
The break even point for PER in terms of 2 PT FG% is 30.4% (3PT% is 21.4%). Shoot anywhere above 30.4% (and everyone does) and your PER goes up with every shot attempt, hence why it overrates low-efficiency volume scorers.
Opponent PER, besides containing all the flaws of it’s parent metric, is that it no one really knows what it’s measuring. It isn’t strictly the PER of the opposing player, and it takes into account the opponents defensive plays (blocks/steals factor into PER) which leads to results that don’t really match up with any other defensive metric. It rates Marco Belinelli as an elite defender (13.9 OPER), and has Boris Diaw as a better defender than Gerald Wallace (15.3 OPER). That doesn’t inspire confidence.
Looking at metrics other than PER, you’ll see that Wallace is rated much, much higher than Carmelo.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 28, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Which other metrics are you referring to?
I’m all for being open minded with statistics, but I can’t find evidence that Wallace is rater much higher than Carmelo.
I know Wallace has a higher FG% but last season 61% of his FGs were assisted to Anthony’s 42%. Basically this shows that Anthony can create his own shot better than Wallace.
Wallace draws more fouls when driving (20.9%) but Carmelo scores more points off free throws (9.3 per 48 vs. 6.5) due to being a better free throw shooter, even though he draws fouls at a lower rate (14.5%).
Gerald Wallace has 11% of his shots blocked to Carmelo’s 7% (indicating better shot selection).
Anthony is a better passer with more assists per 48 (4.0 vs. 2.5)
Wallace is a much better defensive rebounder (20.9% vs. 11.7%), but Anthony is a better offensive rebounder (5.9% vs. 5.3%)
Wallace is a better shot blocker, no contest.
Anthony turns the ball over less. Both by fewer bad passes and fewer ball handing errors.
Camelo is MUCH better in clutch situation (47 points per 48 min in clutch time, vs. 14.4 pts)
The Bobcats suffered less offensively with Wallace off the court than the Nuggets did with Carmelo (-0.6 vs. -4.6)
The Bobcats were better on defense with Wallace on court than the Nuggets were with Melo on court (+0.9 points off court vs. -1.1 points on court)
Net points with Wallace on court +148
Net points with Carmelo on court +235
Basically all the other metrics I can find support that Carmelo’s additional offense overshadows Wallace’s additional defense.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
When evaluating players statistically, I like to use a few specific things.
The only composite, overall type metric I use (generally) are Wins Produced (WP48) and Marginal Win Score (MWS48). They’re the only one I’ve found that value a possession appropriately, and don’t give weight to inefficient scoring (points matter, but only insofar as they aren’t scored by using too many possessions). MWS48 also attempts to include opponent production, which is interesting.
Other than that, I like TS%, ORR/DRR/TRR, AST%, TOV% and FTR (free-throw rates), specifically how they compare to the league average for a particular position.
I also have a Synergy account at the moment, so I’m able to look at their numbers, centered on PPP (points per possession) which helps in terms of determining who uses their possessions well. They also have defensive numbers (and theirs are probably the best), which illuminate who is a good defender and who is not.
Carmelo’s issue is that he’s a decent volume scorer who is below average to bad in every other phase of the game. Synergy has him rated as an awful defender (one of the worst in the league), which is obviously a huge hit to his impact. Though he scores a ton of points, he does so via average efficiency. His TS% is right at the average for an NBA SF. Ideally, you want someone taking that many shots to do so at an above average rate, or else you have to wonder if there are better options.
He’s also a below average rebounder (or average in his best seasons), and is well below average in terms of assist rate (he may average more assists per 48 than Wallace, but in terms of the percentage of possessions that end in an assist, he’s worse, 10.08 vs. 10.58).
Carmelo is a decent to good volume scorer, who undoes that value (for the most part) with his sub-par position defense, distribution and rebounding. Gerald Wallace is an above-average scorer (though not a volume scorer) who is an above average position defender, below average distributor (not as much of an issue given his low usage rate), and excellent rebounder. Add in contracts, and the construction of the current team, and Charlotte is better with Gerald than with Carmelo.
With Anthony, you have two volume scorers (Melo and Jack) who provide little value elsewhere. Either one or the other would probably flourish paired with Wallace (as Jack did to an extent last season), but combined they will make this team worse. I have no doubts about that.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 28, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like how you completely ignored the Win-Shares stats i provided
Win Share stats measure a player’s performance with the rest of the team. Not just individual performances.
Ways to get 100 points a game
3 players scoring 34.
5 players scoring 20
8 players scoring 12
You don’t have to have a 30+ point scorer for the team to score 100 a game. There are a lot of combos that would improve scoring. Our goal is to score more than our opponents.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
They have
3 HOFers though. We have zero. Melo would give us a possible HOFer. Wallace does not. Just saying…
None of those guys play at a HOF level anymore though.
Their HOF status comes from all the years they played in the league before they even got together. The Celtics got to the Finals again because of the consistency AND unexpected leadership they got from their PG, Rajon Rondo. They also had some decent post defense and rebounding. They also have a lot of depth. Carmelo doesn’t give us a chance to compete with that. We’ve been sold on the idea that Paul would be on his way in TWO YEARS if Melo is traded here. I’m not willing to wait two years for anybody.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
How many games did the Bobcats win with stellar defense during the last 6 minutes of the game.
It’s a trade-off. GW blocking a breakaway layup from behind to save the victory, etc.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Clutch win % 2009-10:
Gerald Wallace: 48.7%
Carmelo Anthony: 53.6%
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
The clutch win % measures...
blocks, steals, altered shots, shots not taken, the fear in the other player’s eyes?
The extend and trade would be a max contract for Melo. That is a lot of money vs. the cap.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The win % measures just that… wins.
Someone, anyone could average a quadruple double every night and act like the boogie man hiding under the bed, but if you’re not winning it doesn’t matter.
You’re right… a max deal is a lot. The thing about getting Anthony that you don’t get with Wallace is a flagship player… a superstar who other players want to play with. Right now Charlotte isn’t exactly the most desirable free agent location, even with a playoff birth. Getting Melo makes it that much more desirable in the future.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I was thinking that myself reading some of the earlier posts
Melo is a player that other players will want to play with → CP3 wants to play with Melo. I didn’t hear him saying he wants to play with Crash. Even when Jax was getting booted from GSW he wanted to play with LeBron, not Crash.
Crash is a great player, but in James’ words Melo is a “Flagship player”. Great players can be found on alot of teams in the NBA, Flagship players are not.
Which big name free agents left to play with Melo in Denver?
Anyway I thought having MJ as the team owner was supposed to be enough to haul in the FA’s? And there’s the small problem of not having cap space left to pay anyone else, too
EXACTLY!!!
Trading for Melo would be part of a much bigger plan, a plan that has no guarantees of happening. Everyone thinks that with Melo, we could be the Miami Heat 2.0., in that we can have 2 or 3 max salary guys and surround them with minimum players to win a championship. Charlotte, no matter how much I love it, is just not South Beach. Chris Paul could still be on his way to N.Y. when his contract expires or he could choose to stay in N.O. Also, what makes people think Melo would want to stay in Charlotte? I mean, if it’s really about winning, them I’m very perplexed about why a man would be so ready to leave a team that a lot of people thought were ready to compete with the Lakers until their coach got throat cancer at the worst time possible. How would Melo be so unsure about the team’s direction when you have Chauncey Billups, Nene, and some big expiring contracts to get the team better? Simple. Because it’s not about winning. Melo wants to be on a bigger stage. He wants to do what the “superfriends” have done. Whatever. I mean, once Melo is traded, and if it isn’t to us, then the same people endorsing him now would then go right back to talking about how it’s a bad investment for whoever. I’m one that likes to stick to my guns no matter how many people disagree with what I’m saying. Just because Melo supposedly mentioned the Bobcats, now everybody loves him. Soon as that prospect is dead, he’s just another face in the crowd and you feel terrible for ever thinking about giving up your heart and soul for some extra tickets and jerseys sold. I watched the same thing happen with CP3 just weeks ago.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
There's a lot of UNC Connections Here...
….Just sayin’
Ooh some foreshadowing for a Scott Williams un-retirement?
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
I like the alternate trade James suggested on another thread
It is a 3-way deal with Denver and Houston, where we essentially receive Nene, along with Brooks and Kevin Martin.
This is my grade-A, USDA choice, eggland's best supertrade
In a perfect world it would happen…
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
And WHAT a deal that would be!
We get our starting 5, starting 1 AND a dynamic scorer off the bench to pair with our key 3 of Crashm, Jax and Tyrus!
Doesn’t look quite good enough for Houston, even though it gets them Melo.
You don't think?
Their starting 5 would be:
Billups/Patterson/Anthony/Scola/Yao
With Budinger, Henderson, Brad Miller and Kyle Lowery off the bench
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
$40.9 million expiring
It really depends what they’re trying to do long term. If it’s salt the earth and rebuild then they can’t get better than that
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I like that deal. This is the type of deal that we should be looking for.
and throw in all those bothersome draft picks that do us no good.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
WHY DO NONE OF THESE TRADES INCLUDE NENE
I DONT CARE IF HE IS HURT…WE NEED A GOOD CENTER AND HE IS THE ANSWER…IF WE TRADE WITH DENVER WE NEED TO END UP WITH NENE
dude……….. your capslock is on
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
"Uh dude, I think your caps lock is broken."
“I KNOW, THAT’S WHY I HAVE TO HOLD DOWN THE SHIFT BUTTON.”
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 27, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How do you propose we get to the $28.5 million needed in outgoing salaries to acquire Carmelo Anthony and Nene?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
And why would Denver want to get rid of Nene
They don’t really want to trade Carmelo, and trading Nene would completely gut their team. Nene’s still young, productive and should be pretty close to untouchable.
All I know is that we need a either Tier 1 or Tier 2 center
in order to really splash in the playoffs, regardless of who else we get. Although I am not saying that is all we need, I truly believe that we should try to acquire someone along the lines of: Oden, Nene, Lopez (Brook), Kaman (I really feel he could possibly be acquired) and Varejao
GSO
we should try and get a C
but Nazr pretty much got us to the playoffs so i trust him to do it agian and i think we coud get deep with him at starter but i think its the last thing to worry about right now but of course Nazr cant make it through the whole season so idk if he could stay healthy th 5 would be decent
Nene's injury
Somewhere I saw it listed as an injury that he should get rid of in a weeks time. something about Inflammation of the shins or something along those lines. Also first time poster although I have been here for a while. Wanted to clear that up. Usually I just observe and gain information from all you fine people. Also I am a STH and loyal to death Bobcats fan
Gerald plays better defence, and defence wins chamionships
Did the Spurs ever win a championship with a scoring champion?
Were the Pistons the team to beat in the east because of a 30+ a night scorer?
Would Larry Brown know what to do with it if he had it?
Gerald Wallace is a better fit, and a fan favorite, and I will say it, a better player, second to Dwight Howard in Defensive Player of the year voting.
Has Carmelo ever made a first, or even second All Defensive team? Let alone be in the hunt for DPOY.
And Carmelo is not a team player, and definately not a leader, because when things go south he is childish. If you take Gerald away and replace him with that, where does the guts and grind come from when Larry calls for it?
by lightknightpete on Aug 27, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions
Some answers:
1. No, the Spurs never did. The Lakers did in 99-00 with Shaq and the Bulls did it 6 times with MJ.
2. No. The Pistons weren’t ‘the team to beat in the East’ period. The year they won the Championship the Pacers were the team to beat. In fact, the Pistons were only once under Larry Brown 2005-06 when they lost to the Heat in the Eastern conference final.
3. Given Larry Brown had Allen Iverson for 6 seasons in Philly in his prime and they went to the playoffs 5 of those years… yeah, I tend to think he knows what to do with a 30+ ppg guy.
4. Subjective… no need to discuss.
5. Has Gerald Wallace been a 3 time all star? Let alone be on 4 different All NBA teams?
6. Again subjective… but see what happens in the clutch (mentioned above) to see what happens to Carmelo Anthony when the ‘guts and grind’ are needed… Cliff’s notes: He averages 47 points per 48 mins.
For every pro Wallace argument there is an equal and opposite Melo argument. Which makes this process so intriguing.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
James...
Not trying to re-hash the past but I remember when we were all talking about the CP3 deal about a month or so ago and we thought it “might” be possible that the FO was working on something with CP3 and Melo…
I remember people throwing out proposals of what the package might be and you said…“think dirtier” eluding to a possible CP3/Melo deal coming to CHA.
Do you think that this is all part of it….just coming in a later phase?
Instead of landing CP3 first and then aquiring Melo, we are now working backwards and looking to land Melo to grab Paul in the near future (this season or next)?
Again, not trying to get out of line or pour salt in a wound, but I THOUGHT I remember you thinking that we were working on this a while ago and was just curious on your thoughts now. Part of our plan from a month ago…just playing out a little differently??
I don't believe so
When I said ‘think dirtier’ I was alluding to that I heard that if Chris Paul came to Charlotte then Carmelo Anthony would demand a trade to Charlotte, essentially strong arming the Nuggets into making a deal.
The problem with the notion that this could happen in reverse is that Chris Paul has absolutely no power. He’s locked into a contract until the end of 2011-12. It was different with Melo because he was in his last year he could play the ‘trade me or lose me’ card.
It’s definitely a possibility that the thinking is get Carmelo and bring over Paul later… but that’s pure speculation on my part. I haven’t heard anything to substantiate that.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Seriously?!?!?
Just kidding
by andrewlail76 on Aug 28, 2010 12:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
to be totally honest.
I’m tired of all the “mega” star speculation. It was fun before with Cp3. I had a great time during that whole deal. I’m not going to spit out stats on why we should or shouldn’t try to get Melo. I want to keep Crash. Period. I think we should focus on moving Damp’s contract for a solid pg, and move Boris’ for a solid C. A GREAT Center is very very tough to come by. We really just need someone with defensive efficiency. Tyrus/Gerald/unnamed PG/and Jack will handle the scoring plenty. We lost a lot of close games. Having a more consistent scoring PG, and Tyrus as a starter will push us into winning a better percentage of those games. Thus, making us better than last year. I honestly don’t think we’re any worse than last year. If anything the team knows what it’s like to succeed and will come to expect that kind of performace. Leading us back to the playoffs. Also….I am freakin SICK of people thinking we would have gotten swept by ANY other team other than Orlando. I could go on all day about how it was their depth in 3 point shooting and jameer nelsons ability to crush ray ray, but there is one simple fact. We 100% do not match up against that team. There aren’t many teams in the league like that that we can’t handle.
"It's something I think about on a day to day basis: These Colors Don't Run. Love it or leave it USA #1!"-Ricky Stanzi Iowa QB and Patriot
Blindly Optimistic follower of The Iowa Hawkeyes, San Francisco 49ers, and the Charlotte Bobcats.
EXACTLY!!!
All of the sudden, after the fact, people want to talk like Orlando wasn’t a championship contender. We ran into a bad matchup with them just like they ran into one with Boston. As a matter of fact, I’m almost definitely sure we would’ve won 2 games against any other team in the East, including Boston. A flawed game plan, Raymond Felton’s D on Jameer Nelson, and Diaw’s unwillingness to take and make a big shot are what doomed us. None of that goes away with trading for Melo. Like you, I’d rather upgrade our real holes in the team rather than ship off Crash and all of our flexibility for a player who has shown he can’t be a leader though he is one of the best in the league. Everyone saying “well, you can’t win if Crash is your best player”. That’s B.S. Who was the Pistons best player the year they won the ship? No name comes to mind immediately does it? That’s because they were a team, all the way across the board, Billups, Hamilton, Prince, R.Wallace, B.Wallace, D. Milicic, M. Okur, and whoever else was on that squad. I love how all of the sudden Crash is the source of our problems. Even though he was the only thing that kept us hanging on most nights last year, his “sporadic scoring” is all of the sudden our Achilles heel. No. It’s not. How about a PG that doesn’t give up 30 ppg? Or a PF that actually plays on the inside rather than turn into a mid range and three point shooter. Or how about the ability to get more than 5 points a night out the center spot? Everyone seems to think that our product on the court would be so much better with Melo, but the fact is it only helps with glitz and glamor. PG and C are the most important positions to develop consistency at on the floor, and we just don’t have that. And Melo does nothing to solve that. Like I say, throw in Chauncey or Lawson and I may push myself to sign off on it. But until then, I’m thinking about the aftermath of this and choose no.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think
anyone on here is saying Crash is the source of our problems. But to get a player like Melo would probably take trading our best player. This team as is, is not going to compete for a title. Changes need to be made. If you can get a superstar, you have to at least look into it. I don’t think it will happen, but I want MJ to try like hell to get it done.
So you're telling me that the team we would have after a Melo trade..........
Melo, Jackson, Tyrus, Diop, Carrol, Najera, Derek Brown, Kwame Brown, Shaun Livingston, Sherron Collins, Dominic Mcquire and whoever is going to be enough to compete for a title?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
So you're telling me that the team we would have if we didn't make a trade.....
Crash, Jackson, Tyrus, Diop, Carrol, Najera, Derek Brown, Kwame Brown, Shaun Livingston, Sherron Collins, Dominic Mcquire and whoever is going to be enough to compete for a title?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
No. But we would still have people to trade to get better.
All of those assets disappear with Melo. Our assets? Well, Crash, our best player on a good salary. Dampier and his un-guaranteed contract. Mohammed and his expiring deal. Our 2 best young talents (D.J. and Hendo). And then, more than likely, future draft picks. So what room does Melo leave us to improve? We would have no cap space, no draft picks, and basically no one else to trade worth a damn except for Jackson and Tyrus. We have a better chance at developing a championship team now than we do with a Melo trade.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd still love to know what you think we would plan to spend that money on?
Here are the unrestricted PGs and Cs who are going to be available:
PG:
- Jose Barea
- TJ Ford
- Sebastian Telfair
- Tony Parker
C:
- Tyson Chandler
- Yao Ming
- Troy Murphy
- Nenad Kristic
- Samuel Dalambert
Other notables: Michael Redd, Josh Howard
Short of Yao and Parker who of those players would be a greater statistical increase over Augustin or Livingston than the difference between Wallace and Melo?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Once again, I never said let's sit on the deals and wait for them to expire.
I said let’s trade our assets for players that we can actually use. You never know who might all of the sudden demand a trade. You don’t have to educate on who is available. Like I said, I wrote an article a few months ago on here saying that Charlotte is a team that shouldn’t depend on salary cap room to get better. Only trades. You remember? When I was going against David so much for being mad at our cap situation. I was the one saying Melo and Duncan are the only ones that would be worth it and neither would come to Charlotte as a free agent so forget the cap room. However, Dampier, Mohammed, D.J., Hendo, and our drafts are still assets. Just because they are expiring deals don’t mean that you have to sit on them.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Several options are out there that can improve us as a team without requiring us to gut the core of our roster.
Gilbert Arenas is a valuable player that could fit. Sure, he’s no Melo and makes a ton of money too. But you could still actually have a good PG, SG, SF, PF and be solid at four positions rather than 3. My whole problem with Melo revolves not around the “upgrade” that would be there next year, but the extreme lack of resources we would have to improve after wards.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute
So you’re balking at paying Melo 18 million but paying Arenas 20 million is okay? You’re losing me ………
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
Because it’s not about the money we are paying him or would have to pay him. Examine the situation from a wider perspective.
Let’s say we keep Crash, Jax, and Tyrus, and trade something like Dampier and Diaw/Mohammed for Gilbert. That means, we are at least strong/above average at 4 of 5 spots on the floor. We also still have whatever draft picks and D.J., Hendo, Derek Brown and whoever to dangle in trade talks to improve at Center.
Now, let’s say we trade for Anthony. Crash, Dampier/Mohammed, draft picks and D.J./Hendo would be the obvious center pieces of the deal. What would that leave us with? Livingston, Jackson, Melo, Tyrus, and Kwame AND we would still be maxed out. With no room to improve. So now, we are only strong at 3 positions on the floor with absolutely no room to maneuver at all. Not through trades, not through the draft, and not through free agency.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
True
But we’re sitting close to 10 million over the luxury tax number now. If we use the Dampier trade to bring back equal value, like Arenas, we’re already 10 million over the cap and we have Arenas locked in at 4 years/80+ million.
I understand the 4 starting position argument and will concede to you there. But Arenas and Brand have the most atrocious contracts in the league. I certainly wouldn’t use Dampier to get him. If they would accept Diaw, DJ, and Diop, I’m listening ……….
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I really don't want Gilbert that much because o f his contract.
He was just the first name to come off the top of my head. But at least you get what I’m saying about us having the flexibility to be good in 4 spots rather than good at 4. I mean, the Melo thing would be ideal to me if Jackson was a more efficient scorer and Tyrus decided to be a true PF. I think that big 3 would be able to compete with anyone in the league. It’s just that combination of Jackson and Melo scares me a little because they are both chuckers.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not.
I am saying we have no chance right now. Trading for Melo means we are rebuilding, going a different direction. Melo is a good place to start rebuilding. Don’t get me wrong, I like our team and love Crash. These opportunities rarely ever happen. When will the Bobcats ever have a chance at a superstar to build around. Unless we get lucky in the draft, maybe never. That is what I am saying.
But Melo isn't leaving any room for improvement.
Who cares if he is a superstar if you can’t put good pieces around him?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Glitz and glamor are important.
I used to be a dancer. But wait, dancing and basketball have nothing in common! Sure they do — they are both highly physical and done to entertain people. I did many dance competitions which can also be directly compared to basketball. Here’s what my experience tells me: people remember glitz and glamor. People will remember and talk about the person who took second place if the competition was close between them and the person in second was flashy. Even if Melo does not increase our wins, I doubt he will decrease them. He’s too good. Then what does he do? He brings that glitz and glamor that will cause people to go “wow!” and help them to remember us. Charlotte doesn’t get the big tv deals, we don’t really get shown on ESPN, and nobody talks about us as much as most teams. With Melo, that changes. Our name gets exposure, we’ll probably get on prime tv a lot more, and like others have mentioned: we become more attractive to free agents (yes, MJ helps with that, but that doesn’t mean that MJ is the only thing you need).
I do not think that Melo is a short-term fix. I think he’s a preparation for the future and I like that. We could become a better team immediately by getting a better PG and C and maybe become a 5-seed. Then what? It doesn’t mean that people talk about us. With Melo, people do. Even if we’re not as good as if we got the PG and C, it allows us to break into this sort of monopoly that the big markets have when it comes to marketing and exposure. With that exposure, we become a “bigger”, more attractive destination for coaches and players.
We can keep getting good, perhaps great, players like Crash and Jax, but until we get a superstar here and show the world that we can put that superstar on the main stage, we will have difficulty getting that first one here. Getting Melo would be a long-term plan to show other superstars that you can exist in Charlotte. Getting a good PG and C just shows the superstars that good players come here — but not the best. I want to be an attractive destination to the best.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 28, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Superstars play for big money.
There would be absolutely no money to pay any other “superstar” and no wanted pieces to trade for them either. You guys are severely overrating Carmelo. He doesn’t make his teammates better. No one has ever said, hey, I want to go to Denver to play with Carmelo. So why would they do that with Charlotte?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you missed the crux of my argument.
I never said he made his teammates better. I never said that other superstars would immediately want to come to Charlotte to join him.
I’m thinking of this like a business. Customers want to see superstars like Melo. I remember reading that Charlotte is only going to be nationally televised 2 times in the upcoming year and they are on something like ESPN2. Do you think we’d only get nationally televised twice the following year if we had Melo? He immediately increases our exposure, our brand, our profits. Sure, we pay more – but businesses pay for advertisements because they work. Melo would be our advertisement.
How does this help us get a better team? By becoming more nationally exposed, people realize what Jordan can do for their own name. It puts us up a tier, maybe not to the Lakers level, but certainly heads above where we are now. It makes us a more attractive destination in the future.
We can trade for a PG and C now and maybe do pretty good for the next couple of years. Or we can try to get Melo and maybe stay pat for a couple of years and then do excellent for decades. I prefer the latter.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 28, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I want to clarify
I realize there’s no guarantee we would do excellent for decades… I meant that it sets us up for that. Nothing is guaranteed, but I like how this sets the foundation for excellence.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 28, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Money and marketing and all of that is great. Trust me, I know.
However, that does nothing, absolutely nothing, to alleviate the concerns that are Diop and Carrol. Regardless of how many games Melo can get us on TNT, he can’t change the rules of the salary cap, or anyone elses’ willingness to take some of the hoarders off of our team. Instead of the Miami Heat 2.0, Charlotte would become the Knicks 2.0.7.1. Instead of us having financial ability to build around our star player (Amare), though, we would have to spend this year and probably next just trying to find ways to shed cap and fit 2nd and 3rd rate players around Melo and his max salary. Gerald Wallace is simply a much better bargain than Carmelo Anthony. All of these benefits from having Melo are just hopes and wishes that people will just decide to up and leave their teams for a chance to play with Melo. Not one time did I see a player go sign for cheap in Denver just to play with that guy. I don’t understand what’s supposed to be so different about Charlotte.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
If we trade for Melo or Arenas, other players might want to join them here,
but we would not be able to add them due to salary considerations. There are other ways to build one of the top teams in the East.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Players can do all this hooting and hollering about playing together, but they still aren’t going to take a significant pay cut just come play with other stars. And if they do, they are probably getting close to the end of their careers anyway. The luxury tax doesn’t bother me. It’s the salary cap. We’re in a hole now and Melo digs that hole even deeper. I mean, it just may be worth it to try to land a superstar like Melo, but I won’t feel comfortable with it until I see we can create the cap space necessary to sign one of Melo’s close friends who has been dying to play with him.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if we don't get another superstar to play with Melo
it still shows them that Charlotte is a viable destination to be a superstar at. Right now, I’m sure that many (or perhaps close to all) of them think that Charlotte’s market is too small for them to expand their global brand. If we got that first one and showed them that we can help them expand that brand, well, that sets us up for the future.
I am willing to hold pat for a couple of years to show all those superstars that Charlotte is a viable location, that MJ is a good enough owner to bring those players success on, and off, the court.
I just don’t think we have a chance of winning a championship for a couple of years, at least, thanks to Miami. Instead, we should focus at least 3 years down the road and make sure we can be competitive with Miami then.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 29, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This team in it's current form doesn't have a chance to compete with Miami,
but our big three can compete with their big three on any night. Jax and Crash are probably the best SG/SF combination in the league other than Artest and Bryant to matchup with Wade and LeBron. Tyrus may have trouble with Bosh, but Bosh is a softy that’ll break down eventually if pushed hard enough. It’s all the pieces surrounding them.
And I do get that Charlotte would look to be more of an attractive free agent destination if Melo would give it a try, but at the same time, you have to have cap room first. If we can’t do anything but surround Melo with garbage while he’s here, then before you know it, that extension is up and he’s complaining again.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 30, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions
And I'm tired of the Pistons comparisons
I want to keep G-Force. Love the guy. Carmelo is questionable to me (although I just watched a replay of a game where he destroyed the Cavs last year). That being said, that Pistons team was the exception, not the rule. Look at all the other teams that have won over the past 20 years. Kobe and Pau, Pierce and Allen and Garnett, Time Duncan and Ginobili and Parker, D-Wade, Kobe and Shaq, Jordan and Pippen, Olajuwan and Drekler, Isaiah Thomas, Magic and Kareem, Bird…. That Pistons team was a fluke and merely the result of the Lakers imploding as Kobe and Shaq feuded, Malone got injured, Gary Payton was crazy….
None of those instances occured with the team
having to trade for those guys really. Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker were drafted. Wade drafted. Kobe and Shaq are in L.A. (Hollywood). I just want somebody to build this Carmelo plan for me and tell me how it’s really supposed to work out all great.
We trade all of our expiring contracts and our best player on a decent salary for a max player. So Melo coming to Charlotte is going to make Diop a better trade asset? No. He’ll still be here. How about Carrol? He’ll still be here. Najera will as well. As well and Tyrus and Jack who are locked down for years. The “Big 3” of Melo, Jax, and Tyrus isn’t big enough to compete in the East. NO BIG THREE will ever be able to compete with the Miami Heat in the East. That’s why we need a big 5. Insert Cp3 at point and somebody like Kendrick Perkins at 5 and this team can compete with Miami. I understand that addition by subtraction thing, but at the same time, people aren’t thinking about the long term effects of this. Carmelo isn’t the same as LeBron. No one is going to be that willing to sign for the cheap to play with him.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I am tired of this thread
Bottom line: We should get Melo if we can. Period
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 2:20 PM EDT reply actions
And on top of that
If we start Melo at SF next year, no one should be disappointed. If you are, you’re insane.
If we start Wallace at SF next year, no one should be disappointed. If you are, you’re insane.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
To use a labored analogy:
To me they’re both Mercedes… except on is loaded and one is standard.
Me, I wouldn’t be disappointed with a Mercedes, but if I had my druthers I’d take the loaded one.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Even if that loaded one cost twice as much?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol. It's not your money, but it's the team's money.
And every dollar from it effects our salary cap. I’m not talking about the luxury tax. I could care less how much Jordan has to spend. But when you have Crash making 8 million and Melo making 17.8 million, you have to think about the other people you can fit on the team other than Melo. With no other valuable trade assets or draft picks, I’m just wondering where we have room to improve.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
To start with: Crash is making close to $11 million, not $8… so let’s get the numbers straight before we discuss.
Secondly, you’re taking into account Carmelo’s cap number from the last year on his backloaded contract. If extended he’d be looking at what James, Wade and Bosh are making that’s $14.5 million and Johnson and Amare are making around $16.8. Let’s not fudge the numbers too much.
So, right now we sit at $74.2 million as a team. The salary cap is $58 million and the luxury tax threshold is $70.4 million.
Take Dampier off the books and we avoid luxury, but are still over the cap meaning we can’t bring in anyone for about the MLE.
Take Dampier off the books, and Nazr off the books and we sit at $56 million. Just under the cap.
Now, imagine we trade for Carmelo Anthony and we’ll split the difference and say he makes $16 million per. We’ll also assume we needed to part with Gerald Wallace and Nazr Mohammad ($15 million).
Dampier is cut and we finish 2010-11 at $57 million.
What exactly is that extra $1 million going to buy?
You’re creating this impossible scenario of Crash, Dampier and Nazr ($28 million) heading to Denver for Carmelo Anthony ($17.8 million). Sorry, this doesn’t work… it supports your argument… but it doesn’t work. Denver would need to add in an additional $10 million in salaries to get it through, most likely wanting to include Chauncey Billups and/or JR Smith.
Let’s suppose we end up with Melo, Billups and Smith and had to lose all of our tradeable assets (like you suggest) that means Wallace, Nazr, Damps, Augustin, Henderson. And yes, the money in this deal works.
We need a center… just a center. We still have Boris Diaw who’s tradeable… and we have draft picks, also tradeable.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Crash is making 9.8 million, so, you're right, lets get these numbers right.
Carmelo would be looking at what Amare and Johnson are making. Not Wade, James, or Bosh. They all took pay cuts. So, that’s still 17 million.
Once again, you’re talking about what would happen if we sat on those contracts. For the 1,000th time, I don’t want us to sit on those expiring deals. But instead, make trades for spots we actually need help at.
I’ve also said several times that if Chauncey Billups is included in this deal, then I’d take it in a heart beat. Not so sure how J.R. Smith would get along with Larry. But you’re right, my apologies for not including everyone in the “theoretical” deal. I always had in my head that we would be picking up Birdman and/or J.R. Smith but didn’t really choose to mention them because I think Smith would be gone in a year and I put Birdman on the level of Najera, as a throw in. (Though I do think we could use Birdman’s defense).
If we end up with Melo, Billups and Smith for all those assets, you don’t have an argument at all for me. If it’s only Melo and Birdman or Melo and Smith, then that’s when I start debating it.
That would work out great what you said and you’re right, we would only need a center. However, I don’t think Denver will do it (trade Billups too). But if we could get Smith, Anthony and Billups or Lawson, then I’d go sign off on the damn deal myself. I’m just really not going to be happy with our team until we get a solid, veteran PG to lead the team. All of the complaining I’ve been doing about a Melo trade has been contingent on us not receiving Billups back in a trade.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
For Melo alone at $17 million it would take just Crash and Nazr
We’d still have Dampier’s dust chip to do what we want with.
If Denver just want to cut cap then it’s Damp and Nazr… keeping Wallace and playing small ball.
Basically, there’s no bad way to direct trade with Denver.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I just don't think Crash and Nazr would be enough to pursuade
Denver. I’d make that deal though.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 29, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Understood
But you don’t think having Melo nets MJ another 8 million in revenue? I do.
Example: I’ve had season tickets since 2004. I hate to inform most of you but it’s not easy to sell tickets to games I’m not attending unless it’s against the Lakers. Hell, I can’t give them away for most games. Buf if Melo comes to town, I’ll be able to unload every game to guys I work with. Guaranteed. Maybe that’s why I want a Melo trade? Oh, you’re willing to offer me $100 for 2 tix to watch the Cats/Timberwolves? Twist my arm!
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
It probably nets MJ another 8 million in revenue,
but how does that money help anyone other than M.J.? We can’t use that extra 8 million to sign a free agent. All that is really going to apply to is M.J.’s personal pockets and how much luxury tax he is willing to pay. You get in the luxury tax by re-signing your own players. Considering Melo would already be signed long term, then that money really helps nowhere at all.
Besides, interest in this team by the general public is at an all-time high. Who’s to say that those Wolves games are going to be as hard to get off this year?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand your point
I’m a financial tightwad so I’m the usually the guy on here yelling, “But watch the cap! Dodge the luxury tax!” It would make operating the team financially more difficult. But if Charlotte has a chance to land a superstar via trade, they have to do it. The only other way they get one is via the draft and you have to get very lucky there. And considering the way this team drafts, I probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than that happening.
Having said that, I like this team. They are usually fun to watch, they play hard, and they play well collectively. I’ll still go every night and think we have a chance to win with who we have now.
But there is still no chance in hell I can sell those T’Wolves tickets for face!
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Landing Melo would make interest in the team sky rocket.
Even improving on the buzz their first playoff trip has created for them. However, on the court, the team just won’t be as good for the next year or 2 and won’t have any room to improve at all. People love Melo and he is a superstar no doubt, but ultimately, it’s still going to come down to winning. I’m just envisioning the after effects and that’s making me give Anthony a serious no. I mean, I never thought I would be turning down an offer for Melo, but at the same time, I honestly think it’s going to be terrible for us long term. Sure, the TWC Arena may be packed. But will they be as good?
It’s easy to look towards next year and be like, “ok, Melo replaced Crash. Dampier and Mohammed weren’t too good anyway, and D.J. and Hendo never were going to get p.t.”. So, the trade looks like it could actually improve us this year, granted we get players to fill the other holes left by those traded. However, the next year would be of SUPER, and I do mean SUPER concern to me. I’ve stated several times salary cap smalary cap, it’s overrated. I know. However, take a second to look forward to that second year. Our roster would undoubtedly have to look like this barring any more trades………..
PG- Livingston/Collins/Minimum vet 5.00 million
SG-Jackson, Carrol 12.00 million
SF-Anthony/MV 19.00 million
PF-Diaw/Thomas/McGuire/Najera 19.00 million
C- Diop/MV/MV -9.00 million
So, that would be our team with 64 million already committed towards the cap, with no draft picks and only Boris to try to move (last year of his deal). The thing that’s so great about the NBA is that teams have times to go back and fix their mistakes. Our mistake of overpaying Okafor was saved by our trade for Chandler. However, we have a problem that’s impossible to fix. His name is Desagana Diop. We desperately are going to need a team to take him off of our hands for this to work. I’m just not confident in us being able to build a team around a max player in our current form. From a talent standpoint, I say go for it. From a marketing stand point, I say go for it. But, when it comes down to the economics of the team and how we are currently constructed, this could turn out to be a true disaster.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Valid points
But I don’t get the “Will they be as good?” statement. If that means, can they squeeze in the playoffs and get swept? Then yes we can!
I don’t think a Cats team with Jack/Melo/TT would miss the playoffs. You can definitely make an argument about their ceiling, depending on how we fill the gaps around them.
And I agree the Diop contract is killer. I nearly vomit every time I think about trading Carroll’s crappy contract to get Diop and now we have both of them. Wait a minute, gotta go bow to the porcelain gods again ……….
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 28, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah, I think we could probably actually overtake Milwaukee, Chicago, and Atlanta with Melo.
I was just warning people that there aren’t any guarantees of that just because Melo came. And me speaking about the team being as good is really about us making other trades that have, obviously, not happened yet. As the team sits right now, I think 7th is definitely our ceiling, but we still have pieces to maybe move into the top 4. I’d say, off the top of the head, some kind of three team deal that nets us Marcin Gortat and Jose Calderon for Dampier would make us a better team then the trade for Melo.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand the extra 8 mil
Might make mj ok with paying a little lux tax
by andrewlail76 on Aug 29, 2010 1:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I would say Wallace is the loaded benz, with all the bells and whistles
Melo is just a standard benz sitting 24’s!
by dudemanhey on Aug 29, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Wallace = All options available = everything you need to be comfortable
Melo = Base model with flashy 24s = spent too much to look flashy and you’re missing out on the “comfort options”
by andrewlail76 on Aug 29, 2010 1:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
+2
How can the guy who only scores be the fully loaded one? I want the scoring, rebounding, defense, and tenacity. There are very few, if any, players in the NBA who are as well rounded as Wallace. Dwight Howard, LeBron James, and Rajon Rondo are pretty much the only ones on that level.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 29, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I see it as this
Melo is the Benz with the incredible horsepower and 0-60 but very little as far as brakes, airbags, or maneuverability when speed won’t get the job done.
Now Gerald may not have the world class horsepower, but when the 0-60 isn’t happening on a night when the road is especially twisty and wet, he has airbags, great steering, brakes, and everything else to be the complete package as far as a car.
Now this was a little more complex as far as metaphors so I’m going to divulge what I’m saying in plain english too. Melo is all offense. He’s gonna score at least 25 on most nights (horsepower). But sometimes, you have to get the job done with defense, which he doesn’t have (airbags, brakes, maneuverability). Gerald on the other hand, doesn’t have that offensive power, but he has enough to get the job done with usually 17-30 points on a given night. And on days when his offense isn’t working, his defense is still outstanding to back up his game. Melo doesn’t have that option, not to say his car isn’t a fun ride. But by all means the lack of defensive driving ability may derail you from the road (or game).
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Why is there this common belief that Melo's defensive liability overshadows his offensive benefit?
Per 48 minutes on the court the Nuggets allowed 109.2 pts
Per 48 minutes off the court the Nuggets allowed 108.1 pts
In this case his defensive liability is +1.1 pts
Per 48 minutes on the court the Nuggets scored 114.9
Per 48 minutes off the court the Nuggets scored 110.3
In this case his offensive benefit is +4.6 pts
The overall improvement in the Nuggets as a team with him on the court for 48 min is +3.5 pts. This takes into account his lacking defensive, his propensity to shoot and every other argument I’ve heard against him.
We’ll now compare this to Gerald.
Per 48 minutes on the court the Bobcats allowed 103.8 pts
Per 48 minutes off the court the Bobcats allowed 104.7 pts
In this case his defensive benefit is -0.9 pts
Per 48 minutes on the court the Bobcats scored 106.4 pts
Per 48 minutes off the court the Bobcats scored 105.8 pts
In this case his offensive benefit is +0.6 pts
The overall improvement to the Bobcats as a team with Gerald Wallace on the floor for 48 minutes is +1.5 points.
Take everything, move it aside and call it superfluous. Carmelo Anthony’s amazing scoring and his lacking defense helps the Nuggets score more points than their opponent to a greater degree than Gerald Wallace’s amazing defense and very good offense does.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
+1
I’m happy either way it goes. However, the year after is what I’m concerned with. I have no problem with putting Livingston, Jackson, Anthony, Tyrus, and Kwame on the floor as our starting 5. However, it’ll probably end up being the same team the year after. We would have to once again depend on minimum wage players to occupy the PG and C spots. I mean, if we were in better position to make a run at Paul, then, hell, I guess. But unless we got Chauncey as well OR can find a way to shed cap space to make a run at Paul, then I don’t see the long term benefits of this at all.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 28, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Weird
Seems doubtful he’d sign an extension with Minnesota or Sacramento. I would think that would kill a deal.
I read from the Newark Star ledger that they would be hesitant to trade Derrick Favors or Brook Lopez, so I think that would make a 1 for 1 trade impossible. We could get involved and get Devin Harris from the Nets.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Dampier for Harris
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5683705
Bobcat get: Devin Harris and Kris Humphries
Nets get Erik Dampier
Make it happen!
Risky but Brilliant!
Denver is playing for keeps! Leaking a rumor that Carmelo could be traded to one of the three worst teams last season is a pretty blatant threat. Denver is telling Carmelo and his reps that if he doesn’t cooperate, they won’t hesitate to dump him somewhere he definitely doesn’t want to play. Denver is making a play to take control of this situation and remind Carmelo he won’t be dictating what Denver will do with him.
Suppose Denver dumps Carmelo on one of these teams. If he refuses to sign a contract before the next collective bargaining agreement, he could be costing himself tens of millions.
Burning bridges
I’m sure the Kings and Wolves will love finding out they’re being used as patsies.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
The plot thickens
Looks like maybe we are trying to be the third party in a Melo deal that could possibly garner us a center and/or a pg…Depending on what we would have to give up and who we would recieve, this could be the best way to imrove the overall talent of the team without having to break up our nucleus…
how I know this is bull crap
The Timberwolves? Yeah, ok RealGM. I heard Kobe wants to play for the Clippers too.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Excuse me, NBA.com, not RealGM
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Anyone have melo on their tiwitter? I do hes been posting stuff also about this. NOt bobcats realated just saying. Heres one of the latest
#myfollowers what’s goin on? I heard today’s topic was i care about being a Hollywood star over basketball. I guess they running outta shit to say. Lol
I win as if im used to it, and i loose as if i like it for a change.
Hmm I guess he's rolling up denial and anger all into one big stage
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Today
He posted his account got hacked, not sure if that was before it got hacked or not, so not sure if was “him” that posted it.
I win as if im used to it, and i loose as if i like it for a change.
How I feel about Melo's claim of hacked account
Hey, y’all are all big fartbags!
Whoops. My account was just hacked. I’m back on now. Sorry about that
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Our play here is to facilitate a deal
Thinking through this I seriously doubt Melo would come here. The Nets will not want to give up Lopez or Favors, nor would Melo want to go to a team stripped bare of players to build around. Could we somehow engineer deals to get a PG out of this? I’m sure Denver wants salary relief in the form of Dampier, but we could do that directly. More possibly it could involve us getting either Billups or Harris, perhaps the Birdman or even Nene. But Denver will not want to blow it all up. They will want players who can step in and keep them competitive while preparing for the future with picks and cap space. Right now the Nuggets are in luxury tax land. Getting out of that situation could also be highly favorable.
Dampier to NJ
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5683705
Nets get Erik Dampier
Cats get Devin Harris and Kris Humphries
I'm sure we're in it one way or another.
Either as a direct trade partner with the Nuggets for Melo, a third wheel in a deal for Melo, or a direct trade partner for Chauncey Billups. We may not be offering the best package, but I’m sure Jordan would love to have his team Jordan guy (Melo) and Larry Brown would like to have the PG who won a title for him.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Sep 1, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
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