Higgins said they will try and trade Damp
by TS BOBCAT on Aug 24, 2010 5:53 PM EDT
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I found this report on RealGm
http://realgm.net/src_wiretap_archives/68833/20100824/bobcats_will_try_to_deal_dampier/
Rod Higgins has said that they will be looking to trade Erik Dampier next month. Im guessing they want to wait till September 11th when Damp can be traded along with another player. I also read on NBA.Com that Erik Dampier turned down to re-sign with us, i thought he said he would give us the opportunity to but who knows. It makes you wonder what will happen next.
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Real GM
Bobcats general manager Rod Higgins says the team will try to trade center Erick Dampier next month.
Charlotte agreed to a one-year deal with Kwame Brown on Monday.
…really that’s all they had to say??? no quote no link no source? I feel anyone could have said that…
GSO
We will try to trade Dampier...
Well Trade or dump…obviously trade is better because we get SOMETHING FOR HIM…
at least something including a salary dump
He said he would sign for less...
but not what we offered…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
oh well who wants him anyway haha
well i guess we gotta hope people do
i would like a trade like
Erik/Boris/DJ
for
Billups/JR/Birdman
I could go for this...
I could go for it better if it were a 3 team deal…
We Get
Ben Gordon
Birdman
Billups
Denver gets
Dampier
DJ
Detroit gets
Diaw
JR
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone check it on The Trade Machine
I can’t get it to work right…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't work in the trade machine
no matter how you slice it….
Detroit would be taking in too much salary and not giving up enough. I even tried it with higher paid Rip Hamilton instead of Gordon. still doesn’t work
Still fail to see why Denver wants Dampier and D.J.
I’m not saying I don’t understand that Damps is a huge salary dump, I’m just saying that I don’t think Denver wants to do it. Billups is worth way more.
Agreed...
But Ty Lawson is cheaper…
and if they are thinking about making a move to get CP3…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Because with Carmelo not signing his extension,
Denver may be ready to start the rebuilding process. Chauncey isn’t getting any younger, Nene and Martin have become very injury prone, Melo wants to leave, J.R. Smith is on the trade block. I mean, that’s pretty much their whole starting line-up having issues. With Lawson being the best reserve on the team, Chauncey may be the first one to go after Melo. Not saying that a salary dump would be the best deal for them, but for a rebuilding team, it’s now or never. Either you trade Melo for some “decent” pieces like Danilo Gallinari or something and hope that Denver can squeak into the playoffs, or you realize this team has no chance of competing with the Lakers in it’s current form and needs changes.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 25, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
no if we trade with denver we need Nene
by Bobcatsfan24 on Aug 24, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i would want Nene more
but im worried about his injury and Denvers willingness to let him go so if not Nene id love Birdman
Trading D's for B's
tried that once in high school
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 25, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, that's what the Slovenian Gangster is here for
By the way, does anyone buy Higgins’ “We’re going to wait until Dampier’s contract is guaranteed and then try to trade him with other players” act? I think there is NO chance we let that contract become guaranteed and risk being stuck in luxury tax land.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It is guaranteed on the 13th?
Who would want it at that point?
I just thought on the 13th, we could include others on a trade…and it didn’t become guaranteed until like December or something…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
I did some research and it does not become guaranteed until January 10th. The Bobcats have to pay his pro-rated salary up until the day they waive him. Does anyone know if the pro-rated salary counts toward the luxury tax number? Because I know we’re not doing anything that forces us over the luxury tax. My guess is we deal him before the regular season or let him go. Likely just let him go to avoid the tax.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
What team needs cap relief?
And is actually looking for it?
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But with the torn leg muscle...
that’s damaged goods they are trying to move
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that big a deal per the Tortonto Star:
Jose Calderon (hamstring) is expected to be fully healed by the time the Raptors open camp on Sept. 29, according to Spanish basketball officials.
Spain is saying that Calderon will need just four weeks to heal, but we’re not so sure. NFL players routinely miss 2-3 weeks with hamstring strains and Calderon tore his. It’s a significant injury and he’ll need to be monitored closely in the preseason.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Not worth Dampier...
So Diaw for Calderon straight up?
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course...
this works too…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=27agexl
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I love it too
But don’t see why Atlanta would do it
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it does...
It’s like players who play on a 10 day contract through out the season.
by JDuaneHipps on Aug 25, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Dampier turned down the option to re-up:
How many days after he’s cut before he becomes a member of the Miami Heat? I’m saying 3.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Agreed...
That’s what all of the rumblings are….that Damp ends up in MIA. I can’t help but think that he knows that and it’s why he turned our initial offer down. He wants to win and ride the backs of LBJ, DWade, and Bosh.
Let’s offer MIA Damp for Wade straight up….they should go for that right?
And I hope we don’t get Calderon….I like the sound of Billups so much more.
Damp/DJ/Diaw for Billups and JR
I don't think Denver is doing a salary dump trade
This doesn’t really help Denver because they’re not getting talent and they’re giving up 20 million in expiring contracts (next year is a team option for Billups). If Denver wants to blow it all up and start over, just let Melo and JR expire and decline the option on Billups. If they do a deal, they will demand a lot more talent in return than DJ and Diaw.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Go back to Slovenia!
Of course every team in the league is falling all over themselves to get they’re hands on Dampier and his contract. N.O. even offered up CP3 before MJ wisely nixed the deal.
Yes I’m being sarcastic. I should have probably just +1’d you to let you know that I agree with your comment.
Trading would also ensure that Denver can get extra draft picks in return though.
They could just let everybody walk, but the better approach would be to trade for less talented players on equal salaries and get some 1st round picks out whoever you’re trading with.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 25, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
i like Billups better to but Jose would be my 2nd plan
plus i would like to get Birdman too and have him Kwame and Nazr fight for starting position. or of course if we could get Nene
OK
Just makes some discussions easier…and I’m trying to add everyone here that has Facebook…for that reason
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm betting the center position is what it is
I would rather see us address PG, which could absolutely kill us. I don’t think Nazr/Kwame is much of a downgrade over Nazr/Chandler, especially considering Chandler is always hurt.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Very true
and Diop was hurt for most of the season also…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I would start Kwame...
and bring in Nazr for offense off the bench…
I fear that Nazr may fall apart if we start him…
by andrewlail76 on Aug 24, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
im a little worried about Kwame starting
but honestly i wouldnt mind him starting i dont care which one as long as its not Diop
+1,000
At least Diop expires in …… 3 years. Ugghh, I just threw up in my mouth again.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Just realized something else about the Kwame signing
Doesn’t this leave us with 16 players? I think we have to cut Dampier or trade him 2 for 1.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 24, 2010 10:06 PM EDT reply actions
It depends who is on a guaranteed contract or not.
A team may have 19 players, 13 of them with guaranteed contracts. So they would have like 6 players battling for 2 spots.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 25, 2010 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, so... someone tell me why this trade doesn't work for all parties:
This could by my magnum opus: http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5677254
Charlotte gets a PG they clearly like in Calderon, they also get a super athletic Chris Andersen who they coveted in free agency to take some of the high energy and rebounding load from Crash.
Denver get Rip Hamilton, the player who won a championship with Billups and the kind of 20+ point scorer who could help convince a certain superstar that they’re committed to winning in the Mile High city. Diaw also helps their front court bench.
Detroit get JR Smith, Augustin and Reggie Evans. Smith helps the youth movement either off the bench with Gordon starting, or he can start. Augustin gives them PG depth, and insurance in case they lose Stuckey to FA and Evans as an expiring contract.
Toronto unload Calderon’s contract and get $29.6 million in expiring contracts without losing any of their untouchable core (Barbosa, Jack, DeRozan, Bargnani).
I think it makes perfect sense for all teams.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I should clarify… that link doesn’t show Dampier to Toronto, because of his trade provision… but assuming this waits until September it works and Toronto can absorb the deal using part of their Chris Bosh trade exception
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 24, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Would that work though?
If the Cats get Calderon and Anderson, they are only taking in 13 million in salary but are giviing up 24 million with Dampier, DJ, and Diaw. I think that would fail the 125/100 rule since we’re over the cap.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 25, 2010 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Toronto absorbs MUCH more than every other team.
K-Mart and Damp = $29.6 million
Normally you would be right, it would fail… but due to the $14.5 million trade exception they have from ‘trading’ Chris Bosh to Miami they can make the deal work.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
The trade exception allows it to work for Toronto
But it doesn’t let the other teams off the hook. We can’t absorb more than 125% of what we deal because we have no exceptions and we’re over the cap.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 25, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
And we take on Jose Caleron
which kind of kills it.
We're not absorbing more
Dampier, Boris, DJ = approx $24.7 million
The 125% rule only applies to teams taking on MORE salary that they are giving out:
A team has to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted
Normally Toronto would fail, with the TE they dont.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Sorry James, you're right
As long as Toronto stays under the cap, it would work. And it should be close given the Bosh exception.
The Bobcats would jump all over a trade like that. It makes them better and sheds payroll, although waiving Dampier would be cheaper. But an extra 2 million to have that roster is a no brainer.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 25, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I would be very happy with this being the Bobcats’ roster:
PG: Calderon/Livingston/Collins
SG: Jax/Henderson/Carroll
SF: Wallace/Derrick Brown/Najera
PF: Thomas/Kwame Brown/MacGuire
C: Nazr/Andersen/Brown/Diop
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I wouldn't hate it
but I wouldn’t expect it to be a big improvement over the one we already have.
I think this deal only works for Detroit, and only because they get rid of Rips bloated contract
Calderon was an iffy prospect before the injury. Now he’s a guy coming off a sub par year (where he was playing hurt), going into a season w/ an injury that is notorious for its ability to linger. At 30 mil over 3 season’s he’s overpaid even when 100%. It would be the height of hypocrisy to trade for Calderon after wisely refusing to overpay for Felton. He could make the team a little better, but I’d rather wait until a good option comes along than to desperately grasp at those straws.
Rip Hamilton would be an even bigger mistake for Denver. He hasn’t played more than 70 games the past 2 seasons. He’s averaged 16 shots per 36 min for his career (Denver doesn’t have enough players taking shots? Yea they do). He shot under .300 from behind the 3pt line last season. He’s old and doesn’t bring anything besides shooting to the game. So Hamilton is an older, more expensive player who’s about as effective as J.R. Smith. I don’t see why it works.
Forgot to mention...
Calderon is going to be playing his first season without an all star big man scoring 20+ a night. Either in Toronto or in Charlotte, expect a drop off.
We can agree to disagree on this one
I think Jose Calderon is a far superior talent to Raymond Felton, and really you’re not taking on that much more money because you’re ridding the Bobcats of Boris Diaw’s contract.
As for Hamilton v. JR… I think it’s no contest. Per 82games.com even last year, a down year for Hamilton he had a better PER at PG and SG than JR Smith (who excelled backing up Melo at the 3) and his opponent’s PER was less than Smith. All this despite Hamilton facing starters every night and Smith seeing mostly backups. Hamilton is a better clutch scorer, and better at drawing fouls.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Calderon is also less durable and more expensive than Felton
I agree that trading away Diaw offsets the money you’re paying for Calderon, but that doesn’t mean it makes good sense.
I’ll admit I didn’t do a lot of research before I said that Hamilton and Smith “about as effective.” But now I will and let you know what I think…
At first glace, Rip played less than 1% of his team’s minutes at PG, so those PG PER numbers mean nothing. He played 30% at SG (naturally) and 8% at SF (therefore more important to mention that his PG PER). Smith played 29% of his team’s minutes at SG and 22% at SF. SO we should compare them at the SG postion first and then at the SF.
SG: Rip’s PER last season was 16.7, Smith’s was 15.9. Not a big difference but Rip gets the edge. He appears to have better shot selection and does get to the line more often, I’ll give you that. Now let’s look at opponent PER, 13.7 for Rip and 14.4 for Smith. Edge goes to Rip.
SF: Rip again had a PER of 16.7, but Smith’s shot up to 18.7. Rip’s oppent has a PER of 18.1 vs. Smith’s 14.8. What can we conclude from this? J.R. Smith is the more versatile player. Rip can only play one position. Edge goes to Smith.
Durabiltiy: This has to be taken into account when looking at how effective a player is. No one cares if your PER is 25 if you’re not on the court due to injuries. Last season Rip played in 46 games. Though he’s got the kind of game that let’s players stay in the league for a while, he’s clearly past his prime. Smith played in 75 games last season and 81 the year before that. He’s younger and more athletic. We can generally expect him to be ready contributing to games moreso than Rip. Edge goes to Smith.
There’s other things you can look at that may go in Rip’s favor (though last season’s 3pt shooting isn’t one of them…ouch), but to claim that Rip, at this point in his career is clearly more effective than Smith. I just don’t see it. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
I understand your points
But really, Rip would never play the 3 in Denver with Carmelo on the roster, and almost no way would he ever play PG with Billups and Lawson on the roster.
We also can’t under estimate Boris Diaw, who seems like a perfect fit behind Al Harrington in their run and gun offense.
As for us, I look at it like we’re getting a starting PG for a backup PF. We’re also getting another rebounder and backup center (possible starter in Andersen). As for the durability of Calderon, we really can’t bring Felton into the equation. The question needs to be ‘Is he more durable and/or reliable than Augustin or Livingston?’ I think he’s more reliable than Augustin, and more durable than Livingston… so it’s a wash.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Well like I said above...
I admit that Calderon probably makes the team a little better. Anderson makes the deal easier to swallow as well. But a little better isn’t worth 30 mil over the next three years.
The East is top heavy. The top 5-6 teams are set but 7 and 8 is up for grabs. With or without Calerdon we have a good shot at the 7 ot 8 seed at the playoffs. You make a good point that comparing Calderon to Felton isn’t as meaningful as comparing him to D.J. and Livingston. But is it worth paying Jose 30 mil over the next 3 seasons just to give us a slightly better shot at the 7th seed.
I expect Calderon to have a drop in production regardless of whether or not he’s healthy. And, I don’t expect him to be completely healthy. I see him as another contract that restricts financial flexibility for the next 3 season.
Also, if Smith played 22% of his team's minutes as the SF last season
and Rip plays 0% at the small forward, that means Denver is clearly going to lose some production at that position. If we’re comparing those two players…
We need a low post scoring threat... Anderson/Calderon does not give us that
And until we have that, I don’t see us getting past the 1st round, no matter how good our wings are
GSO
T-Time, Boris, Nazr?
depends on the competition
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 25, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
ya Anderson is awesome (white guy with crazy hops!!!!) but he isnt a true starting center
think about it…we need a center like Nene that will make the other teams center rly have to concentrate on during defense instead of just sitting in the lane and shutting it down.
I agree 100%
But who’s available to trade for?
We need to make lemonade out of lemons at this point and look to draft that center. Teams tend to get theirs via draft, and when they have a good one they hang onto them for a long time.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Lucky for us, we have plenty of lemons
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 25, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
But no Beno Udrih
I like to think of him as the smart shopper’s jose calderon!
How so?
Udrih gets paid just as much as Felton.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Aug 26, 2010 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I was speaking relative to Calderon, not Felton
You make a good point though. I guess we can’t dream about getting any new points guards then. They’re all either unrealistic of no better than Felton.
Way to spoil the fun CB!
Beno udrih VS. Jose Calderon
Beno Udrih=a great driving point guard who makes good passes but doesnt have a great shot
Jose Calderon=an awesome shooter especially from 3 point and can make some risker passes but cant finish at the basket and run the court as well as alot of point guards in the league
Calderon = No Chance in Hell we get him
Jordan burned that bridge
by andrewlail76 on Aug 25, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Udrih's a much better defender as well
If you look just at net PER and opponent PER last season on 82 games, Beno’s was -0.6, but Calderon’s was -4! His opponent’s PER was on average 4 points better than his.
Don’t even get me started on the contracts…
Beno has two years left w/ a player option for a third (so pretty much 3 years left) but he’ll be paid about 8 mil. less over the next three years. I don’t know why we’re so stuck on Calderon. Maybe Beno’s not being shopped the way Jose is, but he can’t be part of the long term plans in Sacto w/ Evans there. He should be available.
Udrih... less money? Sure... but is he worth the savings?
Udrih is due $21.68 million over the next 3 years
Calderon is due $28.70
Okay so $2.3 million a season isn’t chump change… but it’s close to it.
What do we get for those savings?
Lets look at their career stats (per 36):
Udrih: 14.3 ppg, 5.1 apg, 0.458 FG%, 0.358 3P%
Calderon: 13 ppg, 8.7 apg, 0.496 FG%, 0.387 3P%
Okay, so Calderon is a slightly worse scorer, and a worse defense… but I would gladly pay those $2.3 million for a more efficient scorer and 3P shooter as well as an extra 3.6 apg.
Calderon had a down year in 2009-10 because the Raptors brought him off the bench for much of the season. This clearly isn’t a good role for him, but look at 2008-09 when he started and averaged 8.9 apg.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I again have to refer you to Calderon's -4 net PER
That number is just embarassing.
Next season, Calderon will be dealing w/ a nagging hamstring pull (at least at the start of the season, if not longer), and he’ll be w/out a all star scoring option in the post. Expect those assist numbers to go down. But no need to rehash the same argument I made above. I’m not a Calderon fan. If we’re going the route of veteran mid level PG I’d go w/ the cheaper option in Udrih w/out thinking twice.
He had a bad year, and it was the exception... not the rule
2007-08: +1.2
2008-09: +4.6
I think you’re relying far too heavily on Udrih’s one good NBA season, which happened to be 2009-10.
-4.0 net PER is embarrassing, you’re right… but not as embarrassing as the -5.8 net PER Udrih put up in 2008-09.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Yea but look at their respective teams from those years
Everyone had a bad year in Sacramento in 08/09. Pretty much every major contributor for the Kings had equally bad net PERs for that season. The Kings laid a collective turd in 08/09. So how much did just playing for a shitty team influence that?
Toronto has been shitty too, but I think playing next to Bosh has helped Calderon in a way that he won’t be helped here in Charlotte. And one last time, we know for a fact that Calderon will not be healthy to start the season, he may not be at full strength at any point during the season. Beno’s proven that he can play on an equal level and he’s cheaper. Done deal.
It's not an equal level though.
1.3 ppg extra don’t cancel out worse FG%, worse 3P% and 3.6 apg over their careers.
Calderon is the better point guard.
we know for a fact that Calderon will not be healthy to start the season
No we don’t, the Toronto Star said he’d be ready in time for the Raptors camp to open.
Most importantly, why are we even talking about Beno Udrih? There’s no indication he’s even on the block.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
He's a nice alternative thought if you're going the Calderon route
I mentioned above that Beno’s not necessarily on the block (though he’s probably available given Sacto’s PG status). I simply like him as an alternative to Calderon.
You’re relying on those career numbers without context, which is never a good thing my friend.
I don’t believe that the Toronto Star piece holds much water right now. The Raptors are clearly shopping Jose and don’t want his stock to fall. You don’t see the strong potential for BS in that story? You do, you have to. I know you’re smarter than that.
The day I believe that a newspaper influences a trade is the day I believe I'm a fool
Not to mention it insinuates that a 3rd party media outlet is in the pocket of an NBA team. Furthermore, they got their information not from the Raptors but from the Spanish national team which has no vested interest in his NBA career.
I’d rather rely on career numbers and data from 4 years rather than one season.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I'm not saying career numbers aren't important
I’m saying context IS important for any statistical analysis.
The insinuation is no different from what you’ve stated happens w/ Bonnell. You believe that Bonnell is fed BS stories from the Bobcats. Why shouldn’t other NBA reporters be fed BS stories? BS stories are nothing new in sports. The Spanish team has a vested interest in keeping their NBA players and the teams they play for happy. How is that not obvious?
Why would the Spanish team care about what team Jose Calderon plays for? And if they’re that concerned with their player’s NBA careers then why be so outspoken about Rudy Fernandez?
There’s a big difference between an NBA team feeding false information to a reporter regarding possible trade rumors and having a newspaper write a false article lying about the severity of a player’s injury, furthermore why would it matter regardless? All NBA trades are pending a physical, so no NBA team would give a rat’s * about what any independent doctor said until they got their own guys to look at it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Who's saying that the reporters are lying?
I’m saying Calderon and whoever else is spinning his injury to the best possible light. Something that happens all the time in the media.
I'm not bringing this up to be mean or start any big noise
so please don’t take offense to this, but weren’t you the one who wouldn’t reveal the names being discussed in the Bobcats attempted trade back in July because you didn’t want to spoil or influence the deal? So us bloggers can influence trades but newpapers can’t?
No, not at all
I never said anything not because I had some notion that I would influence the deal, but rather I never said anything out of fear that it could potentially leak back to the organization and in turn get my sources (friends) fired from their jobs.
I was asked not to divulge specific details when talks were ongoing and I respected their wishes.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Places of business tend to not take kindly when private information about said company is leaked to the media.
All I know is they felt their jobs could be in jeopardy if it got back to them and I respected that. At this point, that’s all I’m saying because there’s no need to revisit old issues.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
Teams usually would not want to info to leak, because another team may catch word of it and up the ante. Trade rumors also tend to upset the players named.
Other times a team may want info to leak for a number of reasons. Fuel the fire in the trade market, fire up the fan base, prep the fans for an easier landing, hope another team makes the team a better offer.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 26, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
All I'm saying...
is that it’s not an outrageous notion to think that pro sports teams and players keep information guarded. They do that for a reason.
I brought this up to point out that you know that, so I don’t understand why you’re not skeptical now.
I’m not the only one who’s skeptical of that Toronto Star report.
It’s important to point out that Calderon’s best games in 2009-10 game WITHOUT Chris Bosh on the floor, thus dispelling the notion that Bosh helped Calderon.
Assists per game with Bosh (57 games): 5.4 apg
Assists per game without Bosh (11 games): 6.7 apg
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I'm not going to take the time to look
I have to eventually get some work done today :)
But is a slight increase in assists per games indicitive of overall better performance? You’ll have to provide a more complete picture of his performance w/out Bosh if you want to say something convincing.
11 games is also a tiny sample size. Again, I’m not saying that career performance doesn’t matter. In this case, career numbers in the NBA w/out Bosh would go a long ways to help your case.
Notion undispelled. Sorry
I'm not going to take the time either
There isn’t a good enough resource to pull the last 5 years worth of data and analyze Calderon with and Calderon without Bosh stats.
Yes, 11 games is a small sample… but it’s a much larger sample than say, nothing which is all you have offered on the topic. Your assertion that Calderon has only been good because of Bosh, or an idea that Calderon without Bosh will drop off has no statistical basis.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
My argument is based off of conventional ideas about the NBA
Superstars tend to make the game easier for those around them. The attention Bosh recieves from opposing defenses opens the game up for his teammates. I’m not claiming any statistical evidence, but rather speaking about commonly held and plausible ideas.
It’s really the same principle that others have used to suggest Jose’s defense won’t be such a liability here because he’ll be playing next to great team defenders here and will be in a much stronger defensive system.
The fact that I didn’t pick out some shred of a stat to support my claim doesn’t make your statistic any less weak or unconvicing. Don’t get me wrong, I love stats. I was turned on to it a few years ago in correlation with my career pursuits and have been a strong believer in the power of hard data ever since. What you’ve done here, however, is you’ve “cherry picked” a single statistic to provide evidence for your belief, while making no attempt at providing a well rounded or balanced view. Yea it would be difficult to look at ever single game Calderon has played and is probably a waste of time, but for the games that you did choose to look at, you could have at least looked at more than assists per game. And you have to admit that the difference isn’t all that big. I’m not even sure you’ll get a statistically significant finding there.
Here are the full stats for you... just from 2009-10 (all per 36)
With Bosh: 11.3 ppg, 5.4 apg, 2.3 rpg, 1.7 TOPG, 0.485 FG%, 0.421 3P%
Without Bosh: 12.4 ppg, 6.7 apg, 2.0 rpg, 1.4 TOPG, 0.411 FG%, 0.328 3P%
So, the only area Calderon was better in with Bosh on the court was his FG and 3P percentages.
I don’t believe it’s a commonly held and plausible idea that every NBA superstar makes their teammates better, some don’t do any such thing. Look at the statistical improvements of Andre Iguodala during and post Allen Iverson for instance.
Breaking down 2009-10 alone the statistics show that for that one year Calderon was better when Bosh didn’t play. I can’t explain why that is, but the facts don’t lie.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I don't see how you can honestly interpret that as better performance
He scores 1.1 more ppg and gets 1.3 more assists. You’re right those are facts, but I don’t think you’re interpreting them well.
Calderon’s shooting % goes way down (almost a full .1 for 3pt shooting), meaning in these 11 games he’s less efficient offensively with Bosh out of the game. So he gets a minor improvement in scoring, but he’s cleary having to take more shots (obviously he would since Bosh is out of the game).
If I wanted to make grand generalizations from these statements I could claim that Calderon’s shooting % goes into the toilet without Bosh. Why would you want a guy who shoots as poorly as he does w/out Bosh on the floor?
You made the statement that these are Calderon’s best games for last season, which is clearly not fact. It’s open to interpretation.
Your focusing on the scoring, which is FAR less important than the assists.
Calderon attempted 8.3 shots per game last season. Therefore:
- The 0.074% drop in FG % with Bosh out equates to 1.2 ppg
Calderon attempted 2.5 three point shots per game last season. Therefore:
- The 0.093% drop in 3P% with Bosh out equates to 0.7 ppg
Calderon scored 1.1 ppg more and lost 1.9 ppg to a lower percentage in both areas. This means the net overall scoring loss for the Raptors was -0.8 ppg
1.3 apg equates to (assuming all assists were 2 points) a net gain of 2.6 ppg
Therefore, all shooting efficiency aside Calderon was responsible personally for a net ppg gain on 1.8 ppg despite shooting a worse percentage than when Bosh was on the floor.
Now, couple this with lower turnovers (small number, I know) and you’re looking at a more efficient point guard OVERALL, not just focusing on scoring.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Not surprisingly, I have a few problems w/ what you're doing
1) How do you reach the conclusion that scoring is “FAR” less important than assists? Assists are important, but “FAR” more important? They’re only more important when it comes to proving your point.
Minor note here:
There is no subjectivity when counting a basket. It’s either in or out. This isn’t true of assists. Just saying…
You’re doing a lot of rough calculations and they really don’t make much sense to me. I’m not trying to be mean or belittle you, I’m just saying I don’t see how these numbers are meaningful. How do you use total season shot attempts per game and measure that against the 11 games sample you chose? You have to look at how many MORE shots he took and factor that in. How does that effect offensive efficiency as a whole? I’m not sure you’ve done that here.
So Calderon has more assists per game w/out Bosh. Now it’s a small increase, which could be due to random variance. You haven’t proven that it’s a statistically meangingful difference. I’ll assume it is just for the sake of argument though. It’s possible that he simply had the ball in his hands more w/ the all star out of the line up. Does this make Calderon a better player or does it mean it was simply necessary for him to control the ball more with the primary offensive option out of the line up? It’s open to debate and I won’t take a side here. I will, however, say that you’ve still failed to use statistics to prove that Jose Calderon is in FACT a better player without Chris Bosh on the court. He was probably more important in Toronto’s offense w/out Bosh, but does that make him better?
If we’re getting to the point where you’re honestly arguing that assists are less important because they’re based on an NBA official counting it as an assist… then I don’t really know what to say.
I used the 8.3 shots as his average across the entire season. In the 11 games he played without Bosh he shot the ball 8.09 times per game (89 shots total) so in reality, I actually spotted you more… the variation would be greater therefore supporting my point more.
As for the sake of argument point that he had the ball in his hands more… not really. In those 11 games he averaged 21.3 minutes per game, less than his season average of 23.2.
So to sum it all up… he did more in less time without Chris Bosh on the floor. If you choose to think 1.3 apg is a small increase, fine… but to give those 2.6 extra ppg some impact think about this:
The Bobcats lost 5 games in 2009-10 by 2 points or less.
That ‘small increase’ in assists, and therefore points would have made the Bobcats 49-33. Making them the 5 seed and thereby facing Atlanta in the 1st round of the playoffs and not Orlando.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
It took me a minute to wrap my head around this, but the only way that Calderon could score more points, shoot at a much lower% and still take less shots is if he jacked up more 3s. Which he obviously saw fit to do in these 11 games. Shooting more 3s at a much lower % is indicitive of a better performance if your name in Antoine Walker. But I don’t think that holds water for the rest of us.
Again, you’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t argue that assists are less important. I argued that assists are tallied in a far more subjective manner than points. It’s the truth and I just mentioned it as food for thought since you boasted that assists are the “FAR” more important statistic.
I have a question about your minutes per game argument. Are they 8.3 and 8.09 shots numbers per game? If so, that kind of throws a monkey wrench into everything since you pointed out the total minutes played discrepancy.
Speaking of that, we’re talking about what Caleron does while he’s on the floor. Some variance in how many minutes he plays doesn’t necessarily prove that he’s needed less. When he’s on the floor w/out Bosh, it’s still possible that he’s controling the ball more. He’s certainly less efficient with his shot.
The whole point about 2.6 extra ppg meaning 5 more wins to the Bobcats and us playing ATL in the first round is per speculative bunk. I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be rude, but come on man. There’s too many leaps of faith you have to take to buy that. Calderon’s shit defense could have let our opponents make up that 2.6 difference easy.
Come on James answer back
Let’s see how skinny we can make this thread!
Those are shot per game numbers. i.e. 8.3 shots per game in 23.2 minutes with Bosh on the floor and 8.09 shots per game in 21.3 minutes without him on the floor.
You’re right… he did shoot far more threes over those 11 games than his season average. The vast majority of the NBA (unless your name is Ray Allen, or an equivalent sharpshooter) have a lower 3P% the more they take… it’s not a statistical equivalent to Antoine Walker solely.
Again, what it comes down to is a lack of efficiency in shooting being more than cancelled out by more assists in terms of the gross overall improvement of the offense.
Fair points about the Bobcats last season and defense etc… I was merely using it as an example of how 1.3 apg can be much more than just a ‘small increase’.
Still, what it comes down to is that we’re arguing a down season for Jose Calderon and a down year for the Raptors. I definitely think with a better surrounding cast (which I believe we have, not just one guy like Bosh) Calderon can be a 12 and 10 guy… the guy he showed he was in 2007-08 and 2008-09.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
So his shots per should increase w/ Bosh off the floor if you measure it per minute.
I know what you’re trying to say about the assists, we’ll just have to agree to disagree though.
At least you got Mike Train on your side right? :)
Thanks for making work a little more fun today.
Bosh didn't deserve the same money
as Wade and LeBron.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 26, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Good argument
We both kept it civil (for the most part) and it was fun.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Also, you're misreading what I've said
I didn’t say that Allen Iverson made Andre Iguodala a better player. That’s a crazy notion that does not at all represent what I’m saying.
I’m not saying that Chris Bosh makes Calderon a better shooter. I know Calderon can shoot. I’m saying that I believe the attention Bosh recieved from defenders gave perimiter players in Toronto more open shots. That’s actually a claim that is supported by the evidence that you’ve posted here in this 11 game sample.
Sorry And1, but once again you are wrong (when you tried to argue against me as well)
+1 James and win goes to James
GSO
by MikeTrain on Aug 26, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
dont want calderon and dont want udrih
can we talk about players who are actually appealing?
appealing and realistic please
That would leave us talking about no one.
Moving on...
All of this PG talk had me thinking and it’s a long shot and definitely outside of the box, but I was just wondering…
What would it take to aquire the rights to Ricky Rubio? He’s looked good so far and Minnesota already has a PG in Flynn.
We'd have to send draft picks for sure, maybe take on a bad contract
Not sure who Minni would want in terms of players.
i wouldnt mind Rubio
but i also think it would be a risk because i feal he could be all hype but how come he isnt in the NBA all ready? i thought i herad because he doesnt wanna play for a small market in Minnesota
I know this is beating a dead horse but
I still believe the moves for us are
1-trade D.J.,Diaw,and Diop to washington for Arenas.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2c859w2
And if that deal that James talked about is still on the table, we send dampier to detoit for Ben Gordon and Cris Wilcox
if we got ben gordon...
what are we doing with jack? or r you saying we make gordon our 6th man even tho he gets paid more then jack?
No way
The last thing this team needs is to take on Gordon’s and Arenas’ contracts. I’d rather them rebuild, because they would be doing that in 4 years anyway.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
That deal would give us
3 D’s for an A and 1 D for a B and a C.
This would significantly increase our GPA.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 26, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I know
" No one is gonna take Diop in a trade" But in order to get rid of Arenas they are going to have to take back a bad contract. And they do get some talent and potentail back aswell.
I think Washington would take Diop if they really wanted to move Arenas
I’m not convinced they’re dead set on moving him right now though. Maybe I’m just a dumby, but if Arenas shuts the hell up and plays, Washington has a playoff team in 2 years, maybe even next year.
Arenas provides 20+ points and maybe 4-5 assists a night. He was healthy and looking good last season. Howard puts in 15-18, maybe 5 rebounds. As long as Wall’s not a bust he puts up maybe 15-8 (give or take). Blatche and Javale have potential. Then you have Kirk, Ji, Thorton all coming of the bench. The only question with the Wizards is Chemistry and it’s a question that hasn’t been answered yet.
I think they at least try and showcase Gil the first part of the season to get a better deal.
I understand your point but ...
Washington would LOVE to unload Arenas. 4 years/80+ million for a felon who plays the same position as the stud they just drafted. Hmmm
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You might be right
but Gil is a good fit at the 2. Will he play there is the issue
To me, the issue is the contract
I think he can still play and I believe he’ll be a model citizen, but that’s a massive amount of money.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I just keep thinking that
They traded for Kirk, and that is a lot of money tied up at the PG position. I believe they will try to move one of the three.
2 of the 3 can play multiple guard spots as already proven in the NBA
being Gilbert and Kirk. I believe a combination of the 3 will be on the court at all times for Washington. Methinks that that is a pretty damn good 3 guard rotation they have. Unless it becomes really obvious that Gilbert or Kirk can’t coexist with Wall, I think that you won’t see any of them being traded.
Old news, but...
Adrian Woj just reported that Melo wants to be traded. He named Charlotte as a sleeper:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aoxud3y25u5D1Y6W8fIoVOy8vLYF?slug=aw-anthonynuggets082610
Let the Trade Machine winds start blowing!
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll leave the trade machines to those who enjoy using it...
and the blowing to whoever is closest to Greg Oden’s … oh, never mind.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 26, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
From John Hollinger
If Nuggets do hold a Melo auction, my $$ is on Melo to Hou in a three-way with Charlotte — Dampier to Den (gets under tax), Brooks to Cha.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Caveat
Houston would have to throw in more players than just Brooks. They are over the cap so are restricted to the 125/100 rule and would have to send out roughly 13 million to take on Melo. (I’m assuming Hollinger was just referring to a strategy, not the details)
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I would literally poop my figurative pants
Aaron Brooks is one of my favorite young PGs in the NBA
If you haven’t really looked at his stats they’re a sight to behold (per 36)
19.7 ppg, 5.4 apg, 0.432 FG% and 0.398 3P%
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Damps contract is 13mil Brooks is only a little over 1mil Who else would be coming back in this deal?
Pure assumption
We take on JR Smith too
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Makes sense
From a CBA agreement, we don’t have to take on equal salary though. We could just get Brooks. But Houston will have to give 13 million worth of players to somebody. Having said that, JR Smith will definitely be included in any deal.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
If the only parts of the deal are Dampier out, Brooks in. That would keep us just barely under the tax, based on my math.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I like it
can we throw Nazr to enver for Birdman?
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Denver would likely entertain that
Only one year left for Nazr, 4 for Birdman
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Brooks and Birdman
We need more players with the last name starting with B
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
BBP you missed some of it.
@johnhollinger To clarify earlier post, Den would get much more than Damp — get the NY picks from Hou, for starters. Only got 140 characters.
Thanks
I knew there had to be a lot more to it than that.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Melo for Damp, Diaw, DJ, & a first round pick
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 26, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think an offer including Damp and Wallace would be enticing
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
As long as the Wallace you are talking about
is the one associated with Mr. Drummund
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 26, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If we want Melo, we will have to unload Gerald
No other options really. Can’t pay 2 All-Star SF 30 million per year.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
i would never support trading Gerald for Carmelo for one year if thats what your getting at
but Gerald can play PF cant he? if Denver really just wants help with money
If this Melo idea is just a salary dump then here is how it would have to work:
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5679156
Also likely a future 1st and 2nd round pick
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
Jackson Melo Crash and JR on the same team? Im not really sure how that would work. I think Jax Melo and JR are personalitys that would not work well togather especially without enough shots to go around
Lineup
PG: Diaw/Livingston/Collins
SG: Jax/Smith/ Carroll
SF: Anthony/ Najera
PF: Crash
C: Thomas/ Diop/ Brown
Play small ball. Too much talent to worry about the 5
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Boris can pass, but he can't dribble = not a PG
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
He played PLENTY of point for Atlanta in his rookie and sophomore seasons
Furthermore, he’d likely be a PG in name only with Jax taking most of the duties from the 2 spot.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Atlanta did try him at PG
That did not go to well. Maybe we could bring Anthony Mason out of retirement to play point forward.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Aug 27, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
That lineup is so awkward
Diaw would probably start at the 5 w/ Thomas at the 4.
I don’t see how Jax, Anthony, and Crash co-exist to be perfectly honest. Jax can pass but he’s not ideal to run an offense (a lot of turnovers). He and Melo would both take a lot of shots. It may work, but it’s definitely unorthodox. You’d have to move Jax to the 1, Melo to the 2, and Crash to the 3.
I know Boris has played the point before, but it didn’t really work out. He’s had most of his success as a big.
I didn't look at the trade
and I’m not fond of losing young talent (ie Hendo and Brown)
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I’d rather take a chance on Hendo than JR
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
you’d rather have the guy who didn’t allegedly choke some guy at practice?
Maybe it was Latrell Sprewell Disease (LSD) that got the best of him
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
by Ben Swanson on Aug 26, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
well...
If I’m at open practice, and he’s on the team and he attempts to choke me…I’ll be taking him out and taking his place on the team
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Hollingers Idea of Brooks coming to CHA we Keep Crash and we have a young PG of the Future and we keep D Brown and Hendo to grow with Brooks. The best case senario is a Trade that makes us better now without trading away our Future. This is the best Idea ive heard so far Im just not sure who the other pieces would be to make the numbers work? anyone have any ideas?
I agree
Let us be the helper team to give Houston Salary relief, give Houston Melo, and make this all work out
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather get Melo,
since that increases the chances of getting CP3 through free agency or trade.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 26, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Too risky for me...
I’d take Brooks and strengthen at Center
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Swing for the fences
I’m a UNC fan first and foremost. I am honest about my cheering for the Bobcats: I will only watch games if they are a winning team. If they are good enough to make the championship, I will watch a lot more than if they are good enough to barely make the playoffs. (Having said that, I follow the Bobcats whether they are winning or losing). I want them to swing for the fences.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 27, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Stick around a while
Maybe we can convert you to a full time, even when they suck watcher. We have a good community here and I have a good time interacting with the guys here. Had some great in game threads last year, even when we lost.
I think they would
Love the idea of getting Battier (uber leadership/defense) and Brooks. Not sure I want JR Smith. I’m not so sure we have to give up Brown and Hendo in that scenario either. I’ll get to the trade machine tomorrow.
If we're going to Sept 13th
We coud include Najera, Carroll, McGuire, and Collins, along with DJ, Diaw, Nazr
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
What would be sweet
If we wait until Sept 13 and can unload DJ and Dampier for Brooks.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be awesome
Then unload Carroll and Diaw for JR and Birdman
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
This scenario changes things
Denver doesn’t have to get everything from us. The thing they want is Dampier, not our young talent. He’s the only reason we’d be in the trade. The young talent can come from Houston (Budinger, Jordan Hill, Patrick Patterson…) who is the one really trying to make the deal.
Via Mike Cranston's twitter
I know the #Bobcats have talked to #Nuggets. May not be to get Carmelo, but to be 3rd team in the deal with Dampier’s contract going to DEN
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
No doubt
I can interject a little knowledge to these proceedings. The Denver Nuggets have known for at least 3 months that the writing was on the wall with Carmelo Anthony. The Cleveland Cavaliers have become the cautionary tale around the NBA for what happens when your naivety overshadows the obvious.
Denver now have two options:
1. They play out the season, likely make the playoffs and get a pick in the 20s while losing their superstar
2. They cut ties now. Get cheap, dump as much salary as possible dealing every veteran and tanking the season likely resulting in a top 5 pick. They also trade Carmelo to amass more draft picks.
Given the situation which do you think is plausible?
I haven’t had an opportunity to talk with my people, so this is pure supposition but now both Chris Paul and Carmelo Anthony are rumored to have demanded trades. What if Charlotte knew that Dampier’s contract would be the last vital piece to make a 3 team trade work for either Paul or Melo? What if this was their backup plan?
If they somehow manage to turn Tyson Chandler and Alexis Ajinca into a 20-5 PG like Brooks (if HOU is where Melo goes), or leverage Devin Harris (if NJ is the destination) or even Baron Davis and/or Chris Kaman (LAC) they have made a serious coup.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
To add some more:
John Hollinger is basically saying this will be a mammoth cap dump for Denver if it’s a 2 way trade:
Remember, if the Nuggets trade Melo and rebuild, there’s really no point in them keeping Billups either. Could be two All-Stars on market.
Here’s what I’m thinking:
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5679375
Picks also change hands. Every one of the contracts Denver gets is expiring ($40.6 million total)
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Has to be when we can package Dampier.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn sure gives us a lot of talent
But a lot of money at SG. But I think that is the kinda move we need.
We need scorers
this give us that
Rather have money in scorers than in dead weight at C
by andrewlail76 on Aug 26, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
James the Aussie
If you were a betting man,what would be the odds of this trade or Melo coming to the Queen City??
It depends so much on knowing exactly what Denver are looking for
If they truly just want cap space and Melo is open to re-signing then I think it’s upwards of 60%
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 27, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
i would love this
but could we honestly turn damp, diop, naz, an henderson into 3 starters???
haha il cross my fingers but i just dont see that happening at all
That would be sick.
IMO I would think that a above average PG and maybe another player (depends on who it is) is better than trading for carmelo (unless of course melo lands us a good shot at getting Paul). Who is to say that Melo is going to sign a extension. I think a trade sush as
Denv getting:Damp, DJ, Jeffries
Hous. getting: melo, Hendo (if anything from us at all),
us getting: Brookes, Miller and JR
will be better than
Cht Getting: Melo, Smith,
Den.: dj, damp, hendo, draft pick and cash considerations, (maybe brown also)
Trade one we will have a roster like this
Brooks, Livingston, Collins
Jax/Smith
Crash/(maybe)hendo
T-Time, Diaw,
Miller, Brown, Nazr, Diop
Then
Livingston, Collins, Diaw
Jax/Smith
Melo
Crash, TT
Nazr, brown, Diop.
Im sure other players would be involed and draft picks and cash and all that, Im not sure if either trades work in trade machine, i hate working that thing. Lol.
I win as if im used to it, and i loose as if i like it for a change.
Quote from Denver owner
Doesn’t sound like a guy who thinks he can keep Melo.
Asked if what happened to Cleveland and LeBron James is in the back of the Nuggets’ mind, Kroenke said: “That’s a fair question. We want Melo in Denver, and I think that Melo has enjoyed his time in Denver, but we all have tough decisions to make, and I’m from the perception that we have to protect the best interest of the franchise. The message I want to get out to the fans is — we’re going to do what’s best for the city of Denver and the Denver Nuggets.” Denver Post
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
a thing to remember bout the denver owner
correct me if im wrong…but i thought i read that since he just purchased the rams, he is giving the nuggets to his son…so he’s gettin out while he still can haha
Yep, he has to give up ownership by Jan. 1
So he trades his franchise player and all other decent players, leaves the Nuggets with trash and draft picks, and says, “Good luck son. I love you!”
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course
He’s leaving to run the Rams so he’s up sh*t creek without a paddle too.
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
One way to look at it
Or, he tries to give his son a clean slate with a whole bunch of draft picks and cash to build the team himself.
Worse situations to be in than tens of millions under the cap (potentially) and an up and coming PG in Ty Lawson.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
But the fans in Denver likely won’t see it that way ………
by Bring Back Primoz on Aug 26, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
No doubt
It’s going to suck either way losing Melo, and your average fan never understands or accepts it.
Do you pull the bandaid off quickly, or slowly?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
As an aside -
I read a study that it does matter. If you pull it off slowly, the injured person experiences less pain overall, but the medic experiences more psychological pain since they are putting the injured in pain for longer. So the medic choose to rip it off quickly, which gives them less psychological pain but more overall pain to the injured person.
by Tim Rudisill on Aug 27, 2010 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
AKA
“We wont let it get to the point where you’re burning Carmelo jerseys in the street”
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James Dator on Aug 26, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Short list?http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/08/26/report-carmelo-anthony-wants-ou Any chance we are actually on his list?t-of-denver/
Well, we're mentioned by name. I think it's a pretty good chance we're in the running now
If that is true, then the only stumbling block I saw was getting assurance Carmelo would sign long term, if we’re on his ‘short list’ it would indicate that he would be open to staying in Charlotte.
So now the question becomes what would the offers be, and could any of those short list teams offer more?
It depends what the Nuggets are looking for. If they’re looking for young established talent we can’t touch what Houston would offer. They could create a package of Aaron Brooks, Kevin Martin, Patrick Patterson, Chase Buddinger as well as some expiring contracts. However… it would be near impossible for them to get the dollars needed to acquire anyone beyond Anthony in a trade due to low, cheap contracts of Brooks and Patterson. It would require them to also sent Yao’s $17.5 million expiring to take on Billups or Smith in addition to Melo, and I don’t see that happening. Bobcats would have to play third wheel with Damps contract to help make an attractive deal possible. Carmelo and Smith coming to a Houston team without Brooks, Patterson, Yao would leave them with a very weak roster.
New Jersey are in a similar position. They would likely part with Devin Harris, Derrick Favors and Brook Lopez, but that only equals $14 million and change. They don’t have the expiring contracts Denver would want, so Charlotte would need to play third wheel, likely netting Devin Harris.
Golden State are intriguing… but unlikely. They don’t have very much to offer past Steph Curry and Monta Ellis. They would both clash with the development of Ty Lawson. If we played third wheel in this scenario then Steph Curry is a very real possibility. It’s up to Golden State… is it worth giving up Curry to get Melo?
LA Clippers could offer the most to Denver. If Denver want young talent then Blake Griffin and/or Eric Gordon could be on the table. If Denver want cap space we would need to play third wheel likely netting Baron Davis and/or Chris Kaman depending on how many salaries change hands.
Now we get to Charlotte. Charlotte don’t have the young established talent that LA or HOU have, but we can offer more cap space than anyone else and our young borderline talent are all expiring contracts. If Denver want an established player and cap space next year then I think we would part with Crash, Nazr and Damps for Melo, Billups and JR Smith… picks also going to Denver.
The moral of this story is: Buckle up… it’s going to be a crazy 2.5 weeks.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5680364
New Lineups for each team
Bobcats:…all i can say is skeeet skeeeeeet
PG-Billups/Livingston/Collins
SG-Jax/JR/Caroll
SF-Melo/Jax/McGuire
PF-Tyrus/Najera
C-Naz/Foster/Kwame/Diop
Indiana:….is this a contender? no…but it does give them the PF depth they need for the season…while getting rid of players who have worn out their welcome
C-Hibbert/Jones
PF-K-mart/Diaw/Hansborogay
SF-Granger/Diaw/Brown
SG-Rush/Jones/Stevenson
PG-Collison/DJ
Denver:….still a competitive team and moves the players who would have most likely demanded trades once melo left or really expressed not wanting to be there now that melo’s gone…i still think this team could play
C-Nene/Birdman
PF-Harrington/Birdman
SF-Wallace/Dunleavy
SG-Afflalo/Henderson
PG-Ford/Lawson
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