"Why don't we dump them all and just pick new teams?"
by Ourdaywillcome on Jun 30, 2010 11:17 AM EDT
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The above is something Andrewlail said in another thread and it brings to the fore something that's really bothering me about professional sports. Maybe I'm just showing my age here but I wonder just how many fans are sharing my angst when it comes to being a fan in the modern era.
When I was a kid (oh God, already I sound like one of those "we used to walk 20 miles uphill in the snow and we LIKED it!" codgers) players spent their entire careers in one town. Yaz was always going to be at Fenway, Brooks Robinson was always going to be the Orioles human vacuum cleaner, etc. Being a fan of a team also meant being a fan of the local heroes ON that team. Loyalty mattered and not just to the fans, but to the players as well. It was a kind of unspoken covenant.
Then the concept of Free Agency showed up and suddenly players began to develop a "hurray for me and the hell with you" attitude. Now the idea of a player hanging with one club for an entire career is so rare that the player expressing the sentiment is either considered to be a fluke or a faker.
Now it's all about, "I love Cleveland! It's my favorite town! I love the fans! Management has been good to me! What's that you say? I can make more money by playing for the Menstrual, Missouri Tampons? Excuse me y'all, I have a plane to catch!"
I know it all came about because players got tired of being traded around like commodities and it was a way for the individual to get a fair shake, but I feel it's hurt sports in general and the fans in particular. We have players walking out on hometown fans and refusing to play for $6 million dollars a season because they think they might be able to squeeze $6.5 by setting up a bidding war in Free Agency. (Yeah, I'm talking to YOU RayRay!)
Reality check. From where I'm sitting in the overpriced cheap seats once you get an income exceeding $3 million a season you are earning more money than the people cheering you on will make in their lifetimes. What effing difference does it make if you are set for life as opposed to set for double or triple life? How much money does one person need for working 9 months per year?
Disclaimer after the jump.
I know the careers of a pro athlete are short and they retire a good 25 years before regular working stiffs. I also know a career-ending injury could happen at any time. But career players used to get taken care of by management. They would retire and the team they gave 15 or so years to would repay them by making them coaches or scouts. Hell, just the INTEREST off of some of these endorsements players have is enough to send their kids through college.
I know I'm not the first to rant about the lunacy of pro salaries and I'm not saying anything new here. But one of the things I believe makes Gerald Wallace so endearing to Charlotte fans is that you never once hear him whining about his salary or looking for the next better deal. You get the impression that he loves us as much as we love him and it never occurs to him to don another team's uniform for a few more bucks.
As I watch everyone around the NBA fansites (myself included) rubbing hands in anticipation of the huge deals and player changes that are about to go down in the next 10 to 20 days, I wanted to take a minute to pause.
In the next few weeks the entire composition of the NBA is going to change. The landscape will be different and all hell will break loose. Teams will be built and destroyed and fans will be heartbroken while large percentages of their gear will become obsolete because their favorite player is now a thousand miles away. A year from now it will all change again as the players band together and try to convince the public that the Bargaining Agreements they have with the owners are screwing them all into poverty.
End result? A season may be lost. Ticket prices will go up AGAIN. The value of being a loyal fan will decrease and be tested yet again.
Being a fan of pro sports and pro athletes used to come easy. Now it's a lot of work. That's a sad thing.
I fear the biggest loser in all the Free Agent maneuvering and Collective Bargaining will once again be the little kid in the 20th row of the upper tier seats wondering where his heroes have all gone.
Or am I the only one bothered by this?
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This is spot on
Well done.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
There's no loyalty in professional sports, period... but even less in the NBA
The NBA as opposed to the NFL, MLB or NHL have a tremendously small number of players representing the franchise as a whole. Furthermore, the organizations themselves are defined by their players, not some over arching ideology.
What I mean by this is look at the Pittsburgh Steelers of the NFL. They have a distinct identity associated with that franchise; they are tough, hard nosed, and blue collar. Regardless of the players in the black and gold there is an innate understanding of what ‘Steeler football’ is.
Is there an NBA team that has this same identity, or has an identity at all? The closest I could remotely think of were the Detroit Pistons who were shaped by stifling defensive players like Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas and Dennis Rodman. Even then this is a stretch.
Unfortunately it’s a double edged sword. NBA players are not obscured by facemasks or shields, they’re heads aren’t covered with helmets and it’s 10 guys on a court at a time; they’re very transparent and the line between the fans and players is very thin.
Because of this exposure the fans do have a more intimate understanding of the players. Something as minor as a hair style change or a new headband is noticed by every fan; this also makes the players extremely marketable. I’m sure most NBA fans could recall a basic idea of what 50% of the league looks like, if someone says ‘TJ Ford’ I have a pretty good approximation of what he looks like in my head, can the same be said for NFL players?
Our venerable leader Michael Jordan started the ball truly rolling on the Nike sponsored, is it the shoes?, Gatorade fueled NBA. Now it’s not about where a player can go to win a championship, or where the money is- now this additional factor of how big the market is to get more endorsements and more sponsorship.
Because of this lack of loyalty to the teams, fans in turn have a lack of loyalty to the players. Everyone is expendable because to 95% of the NBA the cities and fanbases who love them are expendable. It’s a sad state of affairs, but it’s what the modern NBA has become.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
I would disagree to an extent
I totally see what you’re saying here and feel the same way. That being said, I think we’re seeing changes that offset some of these problems. The concept of a “market” is dying. With the internet and television and league passes etc. marketability is almost a non-issue. Is LeBron really going to get more press in New York than he is now? More endorsements?
I also think that what we’re experiencing today is very different from what we experienced earlier in this decade. These guys aren’t changing teams because of money. They’re changing teams because they want to win. Their loyalty is to winning, not individual teams. It’s hard for me to fault that. I do the same thing in my life. I work for a company now that gave me my first job out of college. It has been a wonderful experience and I will always be grateful for it. But my ceiling here isn’t very high, so I’ve been looking at other jobs recently to further my career. Would anybody fault me for this?
Obviously that scenario only applies to these guys that are getting max deals no matter what. The money problems are with middle of the road guys who are trying to squeeze as much as they can out of the market. This is a problem in a way, but it’s also guys that are not going to make or break a team. Our fortunes aren’t completely tied to our ability to retain Felton. Orlando won’t stop being a contender because Matt Barnes wants more money etc.
Just as a glass half-full type thing, I’m really happy where the NBA is right now. It was tough from the time Jordan retired until now, but I really feel like the league is in a good place in general. If you want to watch a team that really embodies what we might consider the pure concept of basketball, I recommend the Thunder. I watched 80% of their games this past season. If that team is the future of basketball, I’m completely on board. Of course, the Bobcats will always be my #1.
Agree to disagree
I posted my comment as tongue in cheek…
…but OurDay hit the nail on the head.
Now superstar players…once the superstardom is established…does not talk about never giving up and getting their team that championship…they talk about what team they could go to to win a championship. I miss the career players. Karl Malone and John Stockton…they played in Utah forever…granted Malone made one last ditch effort in LA…still…
I like career players. I like a team beang a TEAM for years…now teams change players like they change socks.
Am I complaining? Not exactly. The Bobcats wouldn’t be where they are if we hadn’t changed “socks” repeatedly. Trades are a necessary act…but…once they move…stay…
Shaq…
Orlando
LA
Phoenix
Cleveland
and he won rings in 2 of the cities.
I also understand team hopping at the end of a career…
All this said…NBA players start out YOUNG…so they can hop and hop and hop
A 15-20 year career in the NBA is now entirely possible when you get in the league at 19-20 years old. Just take care of your body.
I got more to say, but I’m at work…so…to be continued.
by andrewlail76 on Jun 30, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree to agree
Just trying to look at both sides of the argument. I think it can be tough on a lot of players. If you don’t have the front office in place to establish a team, are you supposed to accept that out of loyalty, or look for the best situation? Look at Kevin Garnett. He tried to make it work in Minnesota. He never complained, worked as hard as he could and gave it his all. In the end, the organization itself was the problem and he needed to move on to find success. I just think it’s a really complicated situation with a lot of different factors and it’s easy for us as fans to bemoan players for showing a lack of loyalty or whatever because we can afford to be idealistic as spectators. If you really look at the guys that could be considered “loyal” over the history of the league, that loyalty is often associated with team success. Bird stayed on the same team his whole career, but those teams were always contenders. Same for Jordan’s Bulls (once he established himself). Th Jazz, the Pistons (Isaiah and Dumars), the Lakers (Magic Johson, Kareem, Worthy)… Their “loyal” stars had no reason to leave, so were they loyal to the team or just to winning?
Again, I just want to present another side to the argument. Not really taking a stance one way or another because it is such a complicated issue.
Miami too for shaq
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
I agree with your point of the Thunder... but look at what they had to do:
- Get rid of all of their stars
- Salt the earth
- Have Durant fall to them in the draft
- Have 4 seasons totaling 109-219 (0.332)
Personally, I love the NBA and have for a long time… but regardless it’s problems are numerous. If you ask a non-NBA fan why they don’t watch there seems to be a pretty consistent tone… there is no parity. Realistically, there a 4 teams at the start of the year who have a shot to win and everyone else plays for 5th. Most people would have agreed that LA, Boston, Orlando and Phoenix would be there near the end of the season and that happened.
Teams who hope to become good need to strike gold on a top pick, or clear enough cap space to get a top free agent. Your OKC reference essentially boils down to a team having to tear down the foundation and be terrible for numerous years to get enough top 10 draft picks to one day become contenders, and that is an inherent problem that isn’t present in other professional sports. Now with these ‘free agent summits’ there is the potential this will only get worse.
Teams who are decent, but not great languish in the bottom part of the lottery, or 1st round of the playoffs unable to sign top free agents because they aren’t successful enough and unable to really improve through the draft because a pick in the early teens is highly unlikely to be the kind of superstar a top 5 pick will be. I know the lottery is supposed to alleviate this, but it really doesn’t work. Very, very rarely a team makes a Chicago Bulls-like jump up the board. At this point it would be best for the Washington Wizards to be terrible again in 2010-11 so they can get another high pick to complement John Wall… and that’s a problem. I don’t have a solution, but something needs to change.
The average fan is starting to learn about ‘World Wide Wes’ and some of the shady dealings occurring in the NBA behind closed doors starting with Jerry West’s obscenely ridiculous trade of Pau Gasol to the LA Lakers for trash. This is the failing of a soft cap… the rich can be as rich as they want and the poor will be kept down.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
A little bit fallacious
The Thunder (ex-sonics) had other things in mind as well as rebuilding when they went through that process. Those things were alienating the fans and the city. By shipping off stars, firing historical Sonics figures from the staff (Lenny Wilkens, Detlef Shrempf), the organization was creating a losing team to become unpopular and in hopes to prepare for a move to Oklahoma City. And that’s what they did, culminating in a 20-62 season that led to the team’s departure. Yes, the team rebuilt wonderfully, but it was just an added benefit of malevolent intent.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
after some research
Wilkens and Schrempf weren’t actually fired but resigned. Still…
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
They would have stayed in Seattle with a new arena though... which the city didn't give them
When it was clear the taxpayers wouldn’t help foot the bill the organization didn’t need to cushion the blow by firing the aforementioned ‘Sonic legends’ they were leaving regardless. It wasn’t about loving OKC, it was about wanting money wherever they could get it. A multi-use arena partially paid for by the taxpayers would have ensured they were still in Seattle, but citizens found it hard to justify spending over $200 million on a new arena when they had spent some $75 million just 10 years earlier to upgrade KeyArena.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
+1
They couldn’t function the way they were set up at the time. The arena was a mess.
I’m not a fan of what happened. Clay Bennett stole the team, saying he would never move them but always knowing he would (allegedly). But the city itself did nothing to prevent it from happening.
There was still a year left on the contract with KeyArena. Bennett decided to illegally cut the contract short in a successful effort to move the team a year early. Unfortunately the city settled out of court for pennies. Steve Ballmer offered to buy the team and pay something like $150 mil of a new arena or update of KeyArena. Considering the main financier of the Sonics purchase lost nearly all of his worth in the recession/crash, it does not seem unimaginable that Ballmer could have bought back the sonics.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is,
I get more props and stunts than Bruce Willis
- Guru, of Gangstarr
Trust me, I'm not defending Bennett at all... I LOVED the Sonics second only to the Hornets growing up (I say as images of Payton to Kemp alley-oops dance through my head)
I’m just saying that it wasn’t the same alienation scenario that George Shinn pulled with the Hornets. Bennett was going to cut and run regardless, the rebuilding just occurred at the same time.
Just pointing out that a team who appear destined to make an impact down the road needs to salt the earth and start from scratch to even have a chance in the current NBA setup.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
The problem with the Bobcats and this scenario is we've already had the time to "begin anew"
and rebuild. What do you need, top draft picks? We’ve had those with Okafor, Felton, and Morrison. Cap room? We had more cap room than anybody the first few years we were here. Matter of fact, I’m going to start working on an article about the mistakes the organization has made with draft picks and free agents that has us where we are now.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
There have been misteps, no doubt...
Obviously it should have been Roy over Morrison, but hindsight is 20/20… nobody knew Roy was going to be as good as he is, otherwise I doubt Minnesota would have traded him for Randy Foye.
In the Okafor draft who else was there to take?
In the Felton/May draft the biggest mistake was not trading Felton/May to New Orleans for CP3 when they offered the deal.
Biggest sin was burning the cap, I agree.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
Yeah, I'm just saying
we were an expansion team just a few years back, and being in the role of an expansion team is the direction a lot of franchise are trying to head in. Being an expansion team almost automatically means top draft picks and plenty of cap space. The Thunder have done that, and the Knicks are trying. The only thing that separates us from being a team like OKC is that instead of Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Green, in the draft, we ended up with Felton, May, Okafor, and Morrison. So, on top of that cap room and those top draft picks, for a team to turn it around in the draft, there needs to be game changing players at the top of the board. Missing Dwight Howard wasn’t our fault, but we need better people in place to evaluate those we’re using the top picks on.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you think though the Bobcats were victims of circumstance? Is it just be or the years we picked high (2004, 2005, 2006) considered all weak drafts?
If you take the 2nd, 3rd, and 5th picks and transposed them to, say, 2007,2008,2009:
We could have taken:
- Kevin Durant
- OJ Mayo
- Ricky Rubio
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
Yeah. That's basically what I was saying when I was making the Thunder reference.
During those years, their were just elite players at the top of the board. We’re not the only ones that have been victims of weak draft classes. I mean, just examine the year we drafted Adam. Bargnani, as good as he’s been, was a number 1 pick, which he should never be. Portland was the only winner of that class by getting Roy and Aldridge out of it, but at least we’ve somewhat made amends and got the number 4 pick in that draft, Tyrus Thomas. Other than that, it was a very terrible class to choose from.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
The biggest mistake in the Felton/May Draft was...
beating New Orleans the last game of the previous season. This put us in a tie-breaker situation with New Orleans and we lost the coin flip.
Both teams missed out on a top 3 ping-pong ball and we ended up one spot behind New Orleans.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
There was still a deal on the table to package both picks for Paul.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but we not deal would be needed if we just lose the game
I was at that game. As we came back and beat New Orleans, I kept thinking this may come back to bite us. It did.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
After spending years in Boston...
and going out to Fenway Park and the original Boston Garden for games, it’s hard for me to accept these arguments that a $100 million plus stadium only has a 10-year shelf life. I think voters would be a bit more likely to support a referendum for a new stadium if they knew they’d only have to do it once in their lifetime.
by Ourdaywillcome on Jul 1, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree 100%
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
Wilkins resigned, but he was essentially forced out.
And the arena deal was a non-starter. Bennett asked for $400 million in public funds (the other $100M was going to be covered by naming rights, none of it out of his pocket), and all the arena profits were going to the franchise. Seattle would’ve happy supported a measure like the ones that built Qwest field and Safeco, but Bennett’s offer was not a public-private partnership. It was a farcical show that no one ever took seriously.
by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 30, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Part of what makes the NFL so appealing is the parity. You never know (the Saints? Really?). And I agree that the lack of parity in the NBA can be a turnoff to the casual fan. But it’s also a part of white I like. I like investing in a team over the long haul and not just for a season. See: first 5 years of being a Bobcats fan. But people like me (and probably you) enjoy the build up and the pay off
The moral of the story is: don’t post on a message board when you’re at work talking to someone about work related material. You’ll end up liking white way too much.
this could lead to an obsession with hockey
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Jun 30, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you, it's one of the reasons I like rosterbation so much...
One move and a team can be changed drastically, it’s just frustrating when a couple of mis-steps (see Morrison, Adam, May, Sean) can set you back for years.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
Fans always lose when the Owners and Players battle
Thus is the state of the NBA, NFL, and MLB.
Instead of franchises, the teams should be local branches of one corporate entity. The corporation can sign the players assign them to a branch. Rules for trading, the draft, etc. would still apply, but the the national organization would ultimately decide which branch a player will work for.
The NBA, NFL, MLB have created Monopolies by restricting the number of teams in their organizations. Shouldn’t every city who can meet a certain criteria have a team. Several large cities could support multiple teams (NY boroughs, etc.). The Bobcats motto this season was “Every Town Needs a Team”.
Make sports more affordable and reward fans with loyal teams and players and the love of the game will return.
NBA Playoffs should be structured like the first round of the FIFA. Groups of four teams battle it out with the top two going on to the next round.
David Stern isn't helping matters either
I know it’s his responsibility to ensure the league flourishes financially, but if Stern had his way all 30 teams would be in the 30 largest media markets. He doesn’t do much to mediate or alleviate these issues between owners and cities, and that in turn leaves a lot of cities mistrusting the NBA as a whole.
One of the main problems the Bobcats have winning a fan base right now is convincing the area that this isn’t the Hornets 2.0 where everyone gets emotionally invested only to have their heart ripped out less than 15 years later. MJ will help with that, but it’s still a ways off.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
You have to admit...
David Stern did us a solid. There wasn’t anything he could do to stop the Hornets from moving, but he recognized how great the city was and knew what it could be and immediately granted us another franchise. There were plenty of other places to expand, but he had faith in Charlotte.
Raymond Felton has been offered 12.3 million a year to play for the Missouri Tampons. You think he's gonna take it?
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 7:16 AM EDT reply actions
Excellent thread though homey.
Lol, I think a “disclaimer” should be in every thread now.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 1, 2010 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Raymond Felton is the Best PG avalible in FA. I think most of you have the Back up Quaterback syndrome. When Raymond is beating down DJ augustin you will all be singing a new song. I hope Ray goes to the Heat and wins a championship. Unless we can get a good sign and trade for a good PG we should not be so excited about Felton leaving.
There’s a reason Felton is the best FA PG available, because teams know long term talent at the position when they see it and sign guys early. That’s why Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Rajon Rondo are sitting on long term deals already while Felton has his foot in the water.
I don’t think people are excited, per se about Felton leaving… they just realize that it’s like Emeka Okafor all over again and they’re not willing to eat a bad contract for a dead average player.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
I also blog the Panthers at Real Bits of Panthers
EXACTLY!!!
Raymond can get overpaid somewhere else. These players are always the ones that end up weighing down a team’s salary cap for years.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Jul 2, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I might be wrong but i think the reason Ray turned down the 3 year 6per contract was he wanted a longer term deal not more money per. If we offer Ray 5-6 years at the same amount 6 mil I think we could get a deal done. I agree Ray is Middle of the line Avg PG but he is Solid. The thought of DJ as the starting PG just scares me.
I never heard as to why he turned it down...
by andrewlail76 on Jul 2, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
True that.
All we heard at the time was someone here telling us it was actually TEN million dollars a year!
by Ourdaywillcome on Jul 2, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
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