Mad at the Bobcats for trading away another draft pick? Here's why you shouldn't worry.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 12:21 AM EST
110 comments
The trade that brought Tyrus Thomas to Charlotte cost the Bobcats another first round pick, but how much did the team really lose?
2004-Emeka Okafor, Bernard Robinson
2005-Raymond Felton, Sean May
2006-Adam Morrison, Ryan Hollins
2007-Brandon Wright (Jason Richardson trade) Jared Dudley
2008-D.J. Augustin, Alexis Ajincia, Kyle Weaver
2009-Gerald Henderson, Derek Brown, Robert Vaden (Oklahoma City trade)
As you can see, out of 6 years of drafting, we only have 5 players on our roster who we have drafted. 4, who have come in the past 2 years. We've had some of the most terrible draft luck. We lost out on drafting Dwight Howard in our expansion season, we declined a trade that would've landed us the rights to draft Chris Paul, and we selected "The Stache" over Trailblazer cornerstone Brandon Roy. Things just haven't gone right for one reason or another, but we've been very unfortunate.
The good news is that the Bobcats probably won't be having any more opportunities to screw up for a while, because they've finally found the way to building a contender, through the trade. Wait, you say, teams build through the draft, it's a need to hold onto your draft picks. Well, I have to respectfully disagree. Here's why we shouldn't worry about "sacrificing our future".
1. The Bobcats are a playoff caliber team- which also means, that the draft pick won't carry too much value. For teams who don't qualify for the playoffs, they are placed into a lottery in which the teams with the lowest wins have the highest chance of earning the top pick. Like Powerball. The Bobcats, right now, would finish with the lowest seed in the playoffs, and thus have the 15th pick in the NBA Draft.
via thesituationist.files.wordpress.com
A review of the last #15 picks of the past 10 years show that Austin Daye (Detroit), Robin Lopez (Phoenix), Rodney Stuckey (Detroit), Cedric Simmons (New Orleans), Antoine Wright (New Jersey), Al Jefferson (Boston), Reece Gaines (Orlando), Bostjan Nochbar (New Jersey), Steven Hunter (Orlando), and Jason Collier (Milwaukee) were selected. Of all of the picks on the list, I would say that only Al Jefferson and Rodney Stuckey are big names. So, essentially, the Bobcats would probably only have a 20% realistic chance of landing a player that could really change their franchise. And given the Bobcats' penchant for drafting poor, I'll probably knock that down to 10%. Our biggest loss in the trade for Thomas wasn't our draft pick. It was Flip Murray, who was average 10 ppg on a team that needed offense desperately coming into the season.
via www.vx50.com
2. Winning teams don't build through the draft= The age of free agency has really made it difficult for franchises to keep a lot of the players they draft. There is always going to be another team out there willing to offer equal or more to what the home team is. And with ESPN and other networks paying so much attention to certain franchises (Boston, L.A., Miami), players are now more intrigued with the appeal of playing for a big market team. I mean, look at what drafting Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh has gotten the Cavaliers, Heat, and Raptors? A season where all those teams are doing whatever they can to make sure they don't leave. Meanwhile, teams like L.A. and Boston, who have won championships, have been built through trades. Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen were all obtained through trades. There are certain teams that have found success in building almost completely through the draft (Spurs), but what has that gotten every other team that's trying to take the wait and develop approach? Nothing, but years and years of waiting. Some of those teams have had to blow up and rebuild again along the way (Memphis, Philadelphia, Minnesota), while others seem to be doomed to mediocrity for years to come (Detroit, New Orleans), and no championship. You can draft cornerstones and build around them, but more than likely you're going to get those type of players with top 5 picks.
via cdn.picapp.com
3. Same as one, we are a playoff caliber team- I don't really think we have any room to complain when we've improved every year. This appears to be our first year in the playoffs, and now all of the sudden people are concerned about picking up the next Cedric Simmons three years from now? Charlotte's problem has always been they weren't too bad, but they weren't too good. That is a very dangerous cycle you can get caught up in when it comes to drafting, because if you are drafting pick number 12, or 14, you're probably really trying to build a championship with role players, which isn't going to really happen. The trades that we've made have landed the Bobcats a VERY dangerous team. I never imagined that we'd be able to call ourselves that this year. Coming into the season, the playoffs were my goal. After the Stephen Jackson trade, a couple of first round wins was my goal. After this trade for Tyrus Thomas, I truly feel the sky is the limit, because the team plays smart, they are young and athletic, they are long, and they have one of the best coaching minds in the game. I've always felt bad for teams tanking it in and waiting for things to get better the next year (New York Knicks). But I really don't see what's the difference between putting a full team together on 1 year contracts and waiting on picks to turn into something for you in the future. I think you go for the win, and believe in yourself and your franchise. The Bobcats can do that, and I'm happy with it. So while you guys are upset about us trading away our draft picks, I would rather enjoy this ride that we're about to be on for the rest of the year.
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Very solid post.
You seem to be undervaluing the draft quite a bit, but I agree with the overall talk in this post.
Might as well push in all our chips and hope to get blackjack.
I don't mean to undervalue the draft
you can get some very solid pickups outside of the lottery, but to me, generally those picks are “diamond in the rough” type of players, and aren’t really looked at as players that are going to really come in and help a franchise. In instances like this, I believe you give up the pick with no problem considering that Tyrus is already a proven PF, with huge upside.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 12:36 AM EST reply actions
I don't think you did undervalue the draft CB
What value has the draft had? We can all look back in hindsight and say it sure would have been nice if we had picked up Chris Paul or B Roy, but teams don’t have to build championships through the draft. You hit the nail on the head with that one.
Some teams get a string of good drafts picks to build a solid contender (OKC in a couple of years), some teams hit a home run, which is all about LUCK (the Cavs with LBJ, and the Spurs with Duncan), and some teams make good trades and free agent signings.
The thing that gets me about the “build through the draft” argument is that it seems to work because it plays on fundamental American biases. It plays into the cliches that we want to believe. Teams like the Spurs are viewed as patient, frugal, and always do their homework. They don’t over spend and they don’t expect a quick fix. They “choose” superstars who are well mannered and respect good ol’ American values. We might as well put them on a farm and add their name to the pledge of allegiance.
This has worked out great for the Spurs, but most teams need big trades and big free agents to get to the top. Even teams who are fortunate enough to draft their centerpiece still make big trades (Miami in the championship year, the Cavs this season, the Mavs, Lakers, Denver…)
Charlotte hasn’t had good luck in the draft. Instead of waiting for the superstar to finally fall into out lap like has happened for so many teams, Larry Brown was aggressive in turning the roster into a winner. I for one, am happy about that.
I used this analogy over on Bobcats Baseline and I’ll use it again here. Tyrus Thomas is the bird in the hand. A mid round draft pick three years down the road represents the two in the bush. What’s worth more to you?
subliminal appeal
“The thing that gets me about the "build through the draft" argument is that it seems to work because it plays on fundamental American biases. It plays into the cliches that we want to believe. Teams like the Spurs are viewed as patient, frugal, and always do their homework. They don’t over spend and they don’t expect a quick fix. They "choose" superstars who are well mannered and respect good ol’ American values. We might as well put them on a farm and add their name to the pledge of allegiance.”
Too true. In fact, I’ll go so far as to suggest there is an implicit racism associated with many fans’ admiration of this approach. The Spurs in particular are appreciated not just because they’re great, which of course they are, but because they’re very white (and so perceived as more similar and thus less threatening to their primary paying audience.) Tim Duncan is a light-skinned caribbean dude, Tony Parker and Ginobili are euros, and David Robinson though dark-skinned was a super-articulate clean-cut navy man who was the epitome of what in the old days the white man begrudgingly called “a credit to his race.”
I think a great deal of the animosity generated by Isiah Thomas and his Knicks was a function of just the reverse phenomenon. Of course, that he was personally a first-class prick didn’t help, but notice how now that D’Antoni is in charge and David Lee is his big star, and they draft a decent euro in the lottery they’re perceived as not quite so threatening? Be interesting to see how McGrady plays in the NY papers, and if they even try to keep him around. Any takers on them signing him to an extension? Meanwhile the biggest prick— Dolan— is still the boss and his stance regarding the fans and press is I’m sure just as obnoxious as it always has been. But they’re not quite as “dark” as they used to be when Starbury and Randolph and those guys were there, and so not quite as alien to the middle-class white fan.
Yeah, ok, I got a bit off-topic. I tend to do that. And preachy. I suppose I do that too. Aw, what the hell, the Bobcats have gotten exciting enough where I want to spend the time to pleasure myself by spewing thus on a fan forum. And hey, it’s only a minimal % of the volume in today’s threads so again, what the hell? I can’t have wasted too much of anyone’s time, I suppose…
I think I've found a kindred spirit.
I thought for a second about adding the race issue to my comments on the Spurs. I didn’t think it was entirely fair, however, to reduce Duncan and Robinson down to just being the guys who act “white.” I agree that they do seem to have personalities that are more acceptable to middle “white” America. I’m not sure you know that can of worms you just opened bugjack. People have been posting implicitly racist comments about the Bobcats (especially about Bob Johnson) for quite some time. They also voraciously defend their right to be implicitly racist as long as they don’t use the N-word. I was going to post a link to a July 2008 thread from Rick Bonnell’s blog that shows just how racist some fans in Charlotte can be, though that single blog post has somehow disappeared from the archives (yea let’s pretend that ugly incident never happened).
The fans here at RoF don’t seem to be so petty so this probably won’t become such a big deal. It is nice to see that there are other bloggers who care about racism in sports and sports fandom.
A few of the Bonnell blog and observer posters...
…are racists. However, I highly doubt the ones who are racists are fans. People who spend their time leveling pointed personal attacks against Bob Johnson and Michael Jordan and the Arena, etc., probably have never attended a Bobcats game.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Who was racist first?
It strikes me that it was Johnson, who built his empire by relying on racist stereotypes to power BET’s rise and then developed this organization by attracting minority owners and hiring employees on the basis of their race (black and minority first) before evaluating any other qualification, then made everything about the gameday experience as urban as possible (garbage urban/hip-hop/R&B blaring throughout the entire game, that idiot “hype man”) despite the fact that that demographic simply doesn’t represent the customer base that attends (or can afford to attend) the games. If anyobdy’s crying racism at the Bobcats and Johnson, it’s probably because that was his own mindset from the beginning.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, at least they try to defend it.
Johnson never has.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
So Bob Johnson is a racist because...
“relying on racist stereotypes to power BET’s rise” i.e. putting black people on television
“developed this organization by attracting minority owners” i.e. only white people should own stuff
“hiring employees on the basis of their race (black and minority first) before evaluating any other qualification” This claim is made in the absence of supporting evidence…strange. If you do have evidence that this really happened, I’d be willing to listen.
“made everything about the gameday experience as urban as possible” Charlotte is the largest city in the State of North Carolina but somehow shouldn’t provide an “urban” experience?
Bob Johnson has proven to be a bad owner, but a racist? Really?
Hardly.
Since when, exactly, is glamorizing “blinged-out thugs” and objectifying women the same thing as “putitng black people on television?” I don’t like anything he’s ever done, but Tyler Perry has certainly been able to achieve that goal without going that route.
I never said only white people should own stuff. But look at the ownership group Johnson has assembled: he, Jordan, Nelly, Felix Sabates, Jorge de Cespedes, Carlos de Cespedes, M.L. Carr, Rev. Claude Alexander, Dr. Spurgeon Webber III., Hugh McColl, Howard Levine, Nelson Schwab III, Anderson Warlick, Ed Weisiger, Jr. That’s over 60% minority ownership, and that doesn’t happen by accident.
Maybe you’d have preferred I be less polite and just said black instead of urban. City demographics don’t matter if the city’s demographics aren’t the ones buying tickets for and attending your games.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
See, you words aren't overt, but there's a clear subtext of racism
BET is the only channel showing blinged-out thugs and objectifying women? MTV is just as guilty if not more so. You can take a moral stance against that sort of thing if you want to, but does it really make Johnson a racist? There’s all kinds of t.v. glorying sex and violence. That’s not something reserved for black people.
What exactly is wrong w/ a sports franchise have over 60% minority ownership? Let’s look at the NBA alone. Out of majority owners, there is exactly 1 out of 30 who are not white. That’s about 3.333% of the owners being minority. THAT, MY FRIEND, DOES NOT HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT. Seriously you’re making this too easy.
You have a point that there’s plenty of white people at the games. But I have two counter points. 1) Plenty of white people like hip hop and R&B. I know that I and most of my white friends do. 2) Bob Johnson may have been oblivious to his market here in Charlotte, but how does it logically follow that that makes him a racist? How does bad business automatically equal racist?
Also, when I said “urban” I was referring the number of people in and around Charlotte. I don’t think it’s impolite to call black people black.
I notice that you’ve ignored my invitation to provide evidence that Bob Johnson hired minority employs solely on the basis of their race. I hope you’ve had the good sense to recant that statement.
I don’t think you hate or even dislike black people MP. It is clear, however, that you have an inherent mistrust/distaste for having a black man be the majority owner for your favorite basketball team.
I have a mistrust and distaste for his actions.
He’s run this team into the ground and blamed everybody but himself for it.
As to your points: yes, MTV is just as guilty, but they did it so they didn’t lose their African-American audience to BET.
Nothing’s wrong with a sports franchise having 60% minority ownership…as long as equal opportunities are being given to all who are interested.
As to the game experience, most of the people I know who have gone to games thought that hypeman shit was idiotic. Maybe you’re right and Johnson’s not racist, he just goes to the only thing he knows.
And as to the evidence, it’ll be difficult to find documentation as to the hiring practices of the company. However, in my own empirical observations I’ve made when I’ve taken the time to scan the staff list on the team’s websites, there tend to be a hell of a lot of Andres, Ebonis, and LaKeshias in the team’s employ.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
This is exactly what I'm talking about
1) If there’s nothing wrong with a franchise having mostly non-white owners, then don’t bring it up as a point of emphasis when you’re arguing that Bob Johnson might be a racist. That makes it sound like you have a problem with non-whites owning a professional sports team. I know you don’t want to say that, but that’s what you’ve implicitly said. So I have a hard time believing otherwise.
2) Your “empirical” scan of a staff list is laughable. Reading a few names on a list means nothing. Maybe the names that you’re assuming belong to minorities stand out to you more, thus you remember them more. This may lead to you thinking that there are mostly black people in the organization. It’s called a confirmation bias. We pay more attention to evidence that supports beliefs we already have and ignore evidence that suggests our beliefs are wrong. Everyone does it.
Even if there’s a lot of black people in the organization, who cares? Are there really that many white people (relative to minorities) who need a job with the Charlotte Bobcats?
Finally, what exactly are you trying to prove by saying that MTV started showing videos with more violence and sex just to keep their black audience? Is there something wrong with the black audience? Do you think that white people don’t watch that stuff to? Do you believe that white artist don’t objectify women or glorify violence?
White people complain about black people being criminals all the time
Do you really think you, as a white person, have a right to complain about black people having jobs too?
Make up your fucking mind. Do you want black people to be poor(which leads to crime) or have jobs? I for one don’t give a shit if there’s one sports franchise employing black people.
If you’re so uncomfortable with too many “Andres” and “Lekishas” around then maybe you should move to fucking Indiana. Sure you’re not racist, just as long as you don’t have to work or live next to a Lekisha you like minorities just fine.
ugh
Perhaps I shouldn’t have said anything.
by bugjackblue on Mar 11, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
Who the hell ever called the Knicks "threatening?"
Nobody cares whether any team is white or black. It’s whether they win or lose, and New York hasn’t done so in years. Duke men’s basketball is one of the whitest, most well-behaved, and articulate teams in the country, yet they draw more hatred than almost any team I can think of.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
I hate Duke
because I am a UNC fan to the death. I also hate them though because of the way their crowd tries to get in other team’s heads with all that finger waving and crap. My boy is a Duke fan, I call him an uncle Tom for liking them. He love em’ though. I like a few Duke players, Gerald Henderson, Dahntay Jones, Jay Williams, and Mike Dunleavy Jr., but overall, I hated they whole team. I hated Brand, Boozer, Reddick (damn I couldn’t stand him), but it was all just about the rivalry.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 21, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
You can wave your fingers or tell the other team to "Go back to the ghetto."
Which is worse?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think it would be ridiculous
for anybody to tell a Duke opponent to “go back to the ghetto” considering that most of the time, Duke’s best players are black themselves.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 22, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
That was what UNC fans said to Maryland a few years back when they won in the Dean Dome.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/TheSportingBlog/131379/
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
You're right Procton. That UNC fan was offensive
But not near as offensive as letting a minority own a professional sports franchise right? I hear Bob Johnson has employees named Lekisha. Doesn’t that just get your white blood boiling?
I’m just kidding bro. We all know that you’re totes not a racist. Wink wink!
Who ever said they were offended?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 23, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure how making a trade means that you needed to.
The Cavaliers didn’t need to make a trade to get themselves to the NBA’s elite. They had the best record in the league last year, and have already made an NBA Finals appearance. Further, we’ve never even waited to see if a superstar could develop, because we’ve just shown them the door before they’re anywhere close to their prime (Okafor, Dudley, Morrison, etc.)
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
Who, like Derrick Brown?
I’m not really sure what would, for you, define “helping a franchise.” Is a guy like Brown an All-Star from jump street? Of course not, but we’ve also got him for several years. I’m thinking that Brown is almost a lock to serve this franchise better over the course of his Bobcats career more than Tyrus Thomas will over the course of the next two months. Remember, he’s no lock to even be a Bobcat next season.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Oh man you're poking the bear
I agree to a degree, as I still believe the draft is very important to get elite players. I think that great teams utilize both. Drafting an elite player is what allows teams to build a championship caliber team. Bulls: draft MJ. Lakers: trade for Kobe, but basically drafted him. Celtics: draft Pierce. Spurs: draft Duncan. But I would say that it is the trades that push decent playoff caliber teams to championship caliber.
On another note, boy howdy is this post is going to be blown up by Procton comments! Hah I see this discussion getting lots n lots of comments. I eagerly await the back and forth.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Feb 20, 2010 12:55 AM EST reply actions
We won last night. What's the over-under that we don't see MP again until we finally lose in the playoffs?
I agree completely that elite teams tend to draft their superstars. The problem, though is that these teams get lucky to do so and often wait through years of mediocrity to do it.
Certainly they won.
Nice win. But it’s certainly not as impressive to have beaten the Cavs while adjusting to entirely new personnel (one of whom struggled as much as I’ve ever seen from an NBA player) as it was unimpressive to have been beaten start to finish by a four win team.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
It was tough for Tyrus and Theo to adjust. (-:
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 21, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, it seemed like it wasn't.
And that’s something that you can’t really control. A mediocre team like Charlotte is probably going to have an easier time adjusting to a personnel shift than a team that already has the right chemistry and mix of players to be an elite team. But if you think the Cavs team we saw on Friday night is the team they’ll be in the playoffs (or even in a month or so), you’re off California dreamin’.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
how long did the celts suck
with Pierce before they made a TON of trades and instantly became Championship calibre? The Spurs already had a solid foundation when they drafted Duncan…they still had David effin Robinson. Don’t get me wrong. I think the draft can really help a lot of teams and there is a lot of young talent out there, BUT if it’s obvious you have no ability to spot college talent(the clippers). Then maybe it’s a better idea for the time being to atleast attempt to build a playoff contending team. Let’s be honest…this team NEEDS fans to support them NOW not in a few years. The playoffs will do that. I see both sides of the arguement and agree with certain points of each.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Still, without Pierce, that Celtics team goes nowhere. And how did the Spurs get David Robinson? Draft. However, you cannot make a great team without making trades. They’re inevitable. And you’re right: the Cats need to increase the fanbase now.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Feb 20, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
for the sake of arguement
the spurs had two TANKED years before getting both Robinson and Duncan. in 1989 they finished 21-61 and then in 1997 they finished 20-62. Winning the lottery both times which is pure luck. Since then the only players to have an impact on the team that they have drafted are tony parker, manu ginobli(2nd round), and Blair(2nd round). Every other piece of their championship teams has come from trades and free agency. Like I said it’s for the sake of arguement. They obvioulsy have a GREAT front office which most teams do not. Finding diamonds in the rough like they did with Manu and Blair is a bigger deal to me than tanking a season and hoping that our first pick in the draft(*IF*we win the lottery) doesn’t end up like Michael Olawakandi.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Let's not congratulate them for picking Blair in the second round
They look like geniuses for Parker and the Poo God. Duncan and Robinson were no-brainers. With Blair, the rest of the NBA just made them look smart.
I knew Blair was good
when he slung Hasheem Thabeet over his shoulder and might as well have called him a girl on camera. Those Uconn-Pitt games were awesome.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Hardly.
Given that every team in the league passed over him at least once (including these Bobcats), there were very obviously some concerns about the guy (undersized, limited athleticism, not overly skilled) that led scouts and personnel guys to believe that he might struggle to be a long-term impact player in the league. Congrats to the Spurs for taking the risk. I bet the Hawks wish they had taken more of a risk than the safe choice of Shelden Williams at #5 in 2006.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree.
George Hill-5th on the team this year in scoring and minutes, and arguably contributing more than Blair
Leandro Barbosa-This pick was traded, as what its return became was, but it eventually became part of the package that landed them Nazr Mohammed in a deadline deal in the year of their most recent championship. Mohammed is just the type of player a team can afford to trade some future chips for: a veteran who can turn a playoff team to a championship contender, and he did more than that. He was an aggressive presence in the post throughout those playoffs, ranking second on the team in rebounding despite being sixth in minutes.
John Salmons-This pick was traded as part of a package that netted the Spurs Speedy Claxton in another deadline deal. He contributed to the Spurs’ ’03 Championship team, and was another of the kind of players that a contending team can afford to give up a little bit of future success for.
Felipe Lopez-Part of a deal that netted the Spurs Antonio Daniels (as a second-year player, not an aging vet), who was a big contributor to the team for several years. Daniels’ departure was among the reasons that necessitated the Claxton deal.
Finally, I think Tiago Splitter is worth mentioning, if only because he falls right into the Spurs “draft-and-follow” plan and still has a good chance to pan out in the NBA as a contributor for somebody. Though the Spurs have thus far had a hard time getting him out of his various European contracts (particularly because of the rookie scale, which restricts his pay here for the first few seasons), most feel that he’ll be a likely starter for most any team in the NBA once he finally does get over here, perhaps as soon as next season, given his expiring contract with Tau Ceramica this summer.
So when you look at their picks, perhaps it’s worth noting that there are not only good players that they’ve been able to turn into not only productive players for their own team, but into attractive pieces that other teams have coveted not just as salary fillers, but pieces worth trading final piece guys for. We’re not there yet, but we certainly need to hope that we can someday want to acquire a final piece not to solidify our spot in the playoffs, but to solidify our spot as championship contenders. With our current strategy, we’ll trade all of our future contributors before we ever even get there.
Beno Udrih-Served as the backup point guard for that ’05 championship team, part of just an eight-man rotation in the playoffs.
Goran Dragic-traded for a package that eventually included Blair’s selection.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
A ton of trades?
Let’s look at the trades the Celtics made starting with the ’06 draft:
6/28/06: traded future 2nd-round pick (became Aaron Gray) for #49 pick Leon Powe
6/29/06: traded future extra 1st-round pick (which had been acquired in a trade of a veteran and became Rudy Fernandez) for Brian Grant (a veteran who would be waived and retire) and #21 pick Rajon Rondo.
- These were not trades made for instant gratification so that the team could immediately be better. These were trades for targeted young players who could (and eventually would) become part of the team’s core with patience and time allowed for development. Both were key components on the ’08 Championship team even in just their second year, Rondo as the starting PG and Powe as the first post player off the bench. Futher, the team did not actually sacrifice a single one of its first-round picks, having acquired the pick for Jiri Welsch.
6/28/07: traded #5 pick Jeff Green, Wally Sczerbiak, Delonte West, and a 2nd round pick (became Trent Plaisted) for Ray Allen and #35 pick Glen Davis - This was a big trade, but the Celtics did sacrifice tons of youth. While Jeff Green and Delonte West are nice pieces, both of whom are contributing to very solid teams (Green in OKC, West in CLE), they managed to get back a nice young piece in Glen Davis, who contributed a little in his rookie season, and then a lot for them last season, perhaps being their fourth- or fifth-most important player in the playoffs. They may soon rue the loss of Green and West, though, who might have fit in nicely as future replacements for a departed Rondo and an aging Garnett.
8/1/07: traded two 1st-round picks (which would eventually become Jonny Flynn and Wayne Ellington), Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Theo Ratliff, and Gerald Green for Kevin Garnett - First, we must recognize that it is not every day, every season, or every decade that an All-NBA-caliber player comes available in a trade. Second, it’s important to note that one of these two picks sent to Minnesota was actually originally Minnesota’s own, a pick that Boston had gotten in the Ricky Davis trade. Another example where stocking up on draft picks left them with more flexibility to use them as trade chips. Third, that is a lot of talent they sacrificed. Sure, KG (along with Allen) got the Celtics their championship, but I bet they’d take Jefferson over Garnett right now (or Kendrick Perkins, for that matter.) Gomes is also very much a useful piece on a good team, and Flynn and Ellington would also be great Rondo/Ray Allen replacements.
6/27/08: traded cash considerations for Bill Walker - It could be argued that this was a trade the team was able to make specifically because of the success that preceded it. Without the team’s championship and playoff successes and the revenue that came with it, maybe Boston would have been the team doing the selling of draft picks, not the buying.
So when you look at these trades, the Celtics sacrificed a lot of future commodities (one of their own first-round picks in addition to two they had wisely acquired from other teams in preparation for such moves, two second-round picks, a top-five pick, one young stud in Jefferson, and two other young contributors in West and Gomes. However, their return for these pieces was great. They got two veterans who were at the time among the best in the NBA at their position (not unproven young players like Tyrus Thomas or journeymen like Diop and Mohammed), and they even got back a useful young piece in Glen Davis. However, when you look at their current depth chart, it’s obvious what these moves have done to the team. They have exactly two starting-caliber frontcourt players under 32, and both Kendrick Perkins and Glen Davis have contracts that expire after next season. They’re basically forced to extend those guys at at least market-value salaries or pick up others in free agency with no replacement from the draft on the roster (the most effective and cost-efficient way to construct a core roster.) At the guard positions, it’s not much better, where even with a locked in 23-year-old Rajon Rondo, they have no other players capable of being more than 15-20 MPG rotational types outside of Allen. Things will be fine as long as Pierce keeps willing this team to victory, but Garnett and Allen are already showing signs of fragility and aging in their durability and production. This team could fall off the map in a hurry if they plan to build around Rondo, Tony Allen, Pierce, Davis, and Perkins in the long run.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
The Clippers can't spot college talent?
Blake Griffin
Eric Gordon
Al Thornton
Chris Kaman
Those are the last four Clipper 1st round draft picks who were also college players (Yaro Koralev was a bust but not a college player, and Shaun Livingston was a HS player who while very talented succumbed to injuries). Besides Griffin, who obviously is talented, each of those players has met or exceeded expectations. And DeAndre Jordan is an up and coming center drafted in the 2nd round (well after Frenchy). The Clippers obviously do know how to spot college talent. Their problems have been related to injuries and poor chemistry/coaching.
The Clippers used to be a team that consistently drafted poorly, but once the person making the draft picks changed (Elgin Baylor to Mike Dunleavy), the Clippers “luck” changed, too. Hopefully that will happen with the Bobcats, too.
"But I would say that it is the trades that push decent playoff caliber teams to championship caliber."
However, this is far from what this franchise has done. Without our trades, we’re nowhere close to “decent playoff caliber.” We’re a 30-35 win team that can’t even sniff the playoffs, even in the horrific Eastern conference. We’ve sold our soul not to contend for a championship, but to contend for a lower-middle seed in a bad conference with our maximum upside being a second-round appearance. At the cost of limited financial and roster flexibility and years of contributions from future draft picks (remember, we gave away a second-round pick this year to the Thunder for nothing more than a financial payoff), is that really worth it?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
2nd round...
puts us in the top 8 teams in the league and gives us a chance to win the next round.
We could beat Atlanta or Boston in the first round and then take out Cleveland in the next round and face Orlando in the Eastern Conference finals. Sure the odds are with the higher seeds, but it does not mean the 2nd round is our maximum.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 21, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
If you say so.
But I can look at this team and know they won’t win a seven-game series against playoff-tested teams like Atlanta, Boston, Cleveland, or Orlando without thinking twice.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:16 AM EST up reply actions
That supports my theory though.
All of those guys were top 10 picks. It would take a great collapse this year and next for them to have a pick in the top 10. Being how young the team is, I really don’t see that happening. I’m sure Procton will have a lot to say as well, I’m ready to debate.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 1:00 AM EST reply actions
no glory
No glory in being a master debater.
Upon my response to the poll, results were running 32-0. Maybe this once if only this once, in the immortal words of Rodney King, wouldn’t it be great if we could all just get along? Just once…
(Maybe best not to pray for rain?)
Getting along is not the same as agreeing with everyone else. Just because the majority says the sky is green doesn’t make it true. And Rodney King is a fool!
hey! rodney king was the best man at my wedding!
Well, no, not really…
And you’re right in that majority rule is often not the best way to go. I would have been burned at the stake long ago if the hymn-singers had their way.
(Hey, I wonder if he was ever the best man at someone else’s wedding?)
by bugjackblue on Mar 11, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
The #1 reason should always be: Jordan is terrible at picking players to play on his basketball team.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 1:13 AM EST reply actions
Lol
I tried to stress it a little, but that’s another reason. We’ve missed out on too much because of them. We may as well use them as assets and upgrade the roster, like we did when we traded Wright for Richardson.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think that's an entirely fair view of Jordan
I’m not saying I trust the guy to run a team by himself. He’s definitely got a lot to learn and may do well just to hire the right GM, but there were stories that he was forced by ownership to take Kwame (he would have preferred Brand). Ammo sure was a flop and we haven’t gotten the final word on who’s pick that was. Though before Jordan came on Bob Johnson had a history of draft players to market 1st and play ball second. Besides Indiana, what other would you want to market a mustachioed white guy w/ a penchant for Skoal?
I’m not trying to take the opposite view of Jordan (that he’s a great or even a good GM). I’m just saying that I don’t know how fair it is to blame those moves solely on him. He is the only reason that we have LB as a coach.
The allure of big market teams was mentioned..
but the allure of Jordan was overlooked. Some players like being associated with the best player in basketball history. Some also like playing for one of the best coaches.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
What difference does it make when Brown will be gone before any of us know it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
Jordan LOVED Morrison.
Truly believed he was the full-of-confidence, deadeye shooter the team so desperately needed to close out games when the clock was running down and we needed a basket.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, the reason I'm not worried....
is that anyone we’d select would just sit the bench regardless.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
So do a lot of rookies.
But you need to give them a chance to sit on the bench, play in practice, and develop, just as Rondo did, just as Tony Parker did, just as Delonte West did. Contributors on championship teams are not developed overnight. But we want to toss our guys (Augustin, Dudley, Morrison) before they’re ever given a chance.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
My point exactly
At the best, we’d probably be drafting a role player. We can fill needs like those every year with the mid-level exception. We picked up Flip this year, he averaged 10 points, and became a great asset as an expiring contract and scorer for us to land Thomas. That’s where the value is in the NBA nowadays. Not in mid first round picks.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 1:33 AM EST reply actions
(It’ll be easier to follow the discussion if you use the reply link.)
As for your post, I think there’s a major fallacy at play here, which is that because they’ve been bad picking players in the past, they’ll be bad in the future. That’s simply not true. By the time we would have gotten that pick, there likely would be different management in place. Even with same management, they might get better at it. Or worse. Regardless, the pick is valuable and might have been put to better use.
Second, history proves that drafting is essential to building a championship caliber club because the best players simply are not available in free agency or trade. I’ve laid this out before:
On each of those Finals teams — except the 2004 and 2005 Pistons, and maybe the 1993 Suns — the best or second best player had played his entire career for that team up to that point. To win a championship, drafting well is essential.
by David A. Arnott on Feb 20, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It really doesn't matter what general manager
is in place. You’re not going to land a top tier caliber player with a mid first round pick unless you just get lucky. Everyone knows that the top players are gone after the top 10. The draft never really goes 20 deep with talent. In the future, if the Bobcats want the pick back, they’ll still have ways to trade back for it. You don’t have to build through the draft to win. The Celtics signed clutch veterans like Eddie House and James Posey to deliver the daggers to the Lakers. What have the young guys done lately? Ultimately, the goal for every team should be to win a championship. You’re really telling me the Bobcats were going to be on a better path waiting for the draft? That’s what they’ve been doing for years, trying to build through the draft, and failing miserably. We got Larry in there who knows who he wants to run his plays, and it was almost we were instantly better. Like I say, draft picks are very important, if they are lottery picks. Otherwise, there are plenty of players on the market each year who can be just as effective in the meantime as the rookie probably ever will be. No one is going to be raving over the talent at the 16th pick.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
Not really.
They’ve traded away many of their top-upside picks (Dudley, Morrison, even Okafor) before they had an opportunity to hit their peak. Of course we got better under Brown! We traded most of our youth and cap space for decent journeyman vets. And all the “better” that got us was three wins more than what Sam Vincent’s ineptitude managed to compile. We’re not going to get the Eddie Houses or the James Posey that anybody else in the league wants to sign. We’re going to get scrubby players who will sign for less than a million after camp has already started like Murray and Graham.
Ask the Celtics think Rajon Rondo is important; he was picked 21st.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
So are you really telling me
that you expect Dudley, Morrison, and Okafor to get better? They all are what they are. Dudley is a smart role player, same as he was in Charlotte. Morrison is struggling to hold on to his career, same as he was in Charlotte. And Okafor is a yoga master that can average a double double, same as in Charlotte. Those guys are what they are. I think we’ve seen the best out of all of them already. Okafor was pretty decent, but we overpaid for him and had to find a way to dump his contract. Plus, the fact that he’s “soft” bothered Larry.
James Posey and Eddie House signed with the Celtics because everyone knew what they were trying to do. Put 3 future hall of famers on the team, and surround them with smart veterans for cheap in hopes of reaching a championship. It worked. They didn’t go their because they just love the Boston Celtics that much. The year before, they were absolute garbage and no one wanted to go there. Even Kevin Garnett was opposed to joining the Celtics until they got Ray Allen as well. Posey and House aren’t good enough to sit there and say “I’ll only play for this or that team”. They’ll find work wherever they can. It’s all about money.
And let’s not get it twisted, Rondo flourished the way he did because he played with an all-star caliber team. Now that he has that confidence, he may be able to continue that on his own. We’ll never know until he plays with a different lineup. Plus, I never said you couldn’t find talent with the number 21 pick. I said it would be more of a diamond in the rough type of player, which Rondo was. It’s not hard at all to trade for the 21st pick in the draft. It’s those that are in the top 10 that are difficult to acquire.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 22, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you David, but not for the reasons you might think
We don’t know for sure that our future picks would be bad choices. That has nothing to do with management, however. It mostly has to do w/ the luck of the draft. Are we a bad enough team in a good enough draft to get the right pick? You know how many variables have to be in place to really make that happen? Chance plays a huge role. Making trades and signing free agents reduces the number of variables in play, thereby increasing the certainty of what product you’ll be putting on the floor.
Using pick #15 to #25 every year from 2010 to 2020
is not going to help us build a championship team. Tanking two seasons to get a better pick is not going to help either.
Trading late first round picks for top notch players will.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Who is this "top notch" player we've seen delivered?
Nazr Mohammed? Alexis Ajinca? Tyrus Thomas? None of these players is a final piece to a championship, or anything close to it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
Actually,
we drafted Ajincia. As for Mohammed and Thomas, both are doing good things for the Bobcats this year. But I’d rather have either one of them than Jared Dudley or Adam Morrison any day.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 22, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
We also traded a future pick for Ajinca.
And if you think the decent game here and there that Mohammed has delivered is worth four years of Jared Dudley, well then we’ve got differing philosophies.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
dude you just proved everyone's arguement against you.
2004 and 2005 Pistons. I think everyone knows where I’m goin with this.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
that reply was to David. not you ft mill.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Obviously.
That’s why it’s threaded with it.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
Two years in 20 makes a demonstrable point for an arugment?
LOL.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
you're telling you didn't get that?
LARRY BROWN! He made it happen with what he had. Great Coaching. I’m not saying that the Bobcats are the 2004 or 2005 Pistons. He took a team that had no business being where it was and won a championship. The point I was trying to make that apparently no one is either willing to accept or acknowledge, is Larry brown is 100% an X factor in anything done with team players. I’m sorry, but it’s not a coincidence that the team was built basically by Larry Brown with veterans.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 22, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly,
which is why I have so much faith in this team of misfits that we have. Billups, Wallace, and Prince were all looked at the way Felton, Crash, and Chandler are looked at for us, and won it all. The talent level has stepped up since then, but I like our chances in the playoffs considering the success Detroit was able to have. I think the Bobcats will be able to play better with a team over a 7 game series, and with Larry in place to exploit the other team’s weaknesses, we really have a chance at winning.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 22, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
Billups was a better player in Minnesota than Felton has yet shown an ability to be, and Felton’s numbers and impact on the game have only gotten worse as he’s gotten “better” under Brown. Wallace was also already one of the top defensive players in the league in terms of block and rebounding percentage and rate; Brown just played him more. And Tyson Chandler sucks. He can’t even stay healthy enough to get on the court, much less help lead the team to a playoff upset.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
The Bobcats having a terrible draft history is not justification for why it's okay to keep trading picks.
Furthermore, every winning team you mention (Boston, LA, Miami) were millions of dollars over the luxury tax the year they won the championship.
The Bobcats cant afford that money
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Feb 20, 2010 2:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The Bobcats haven't taken on any superstar contracts either
I admit that having to think about signing TT and Felton next season, which almost certainly puts us over the soft cap is a concern. But I’d rather that be the concern instead of the “what do we do for a power forward” situation that’s plagued us ever since we drafted Sean May.
after we sign those two players
we’ll be able to dump off Tyson Chandlers contract before the trade deadline for someone of considerable talent. What Charlotte currently lacks is a PURE shooter. Jax in all his glorious love making to pressure, is not a pure shooter. A Stephen Curry. A Rip Hamilton. A Ray Allen. A guy that goes out on the floor and knocks down all the shots we only knock down.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
crap
in certain games every once in a while(like last night). The type of guy that even when everyone else is slumping won’t allow us to lose to the NETS!
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Good Points
Flip was close to being that guy, but his shooting couldn’t keep us from losing to the Nets
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Flip was that guy a few years ago
he’s just past his prime. I love Flip to death, but from time to time he was becoming a liability. DJ Augustin CAN be that guy. He just needs to adjust to the roll. He’s seeing more playing time in bigger games now, so I think he’ll blossom like he did late last year.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
He's past his prime?
He’s the same player he’s always been: an incredibly inefficient volume shooter who doesn’t defend, rebound, or set up his teammates.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
You think so?
If we trade Chandler after the season it’s going to be for long-term contracts, which will leave us w/ even less financial flexibility.
Depending on the deal I’m thinking that we should let Chandler’s contract end and lock up another player, or combination of players for half his salary. We’re going to need the extra cap space to TT and Fleton. This scenario still puts us over the cap for one season, but it’s the best way to go I think.
yea
you’re right about that.
"Smokey this isn't 'Nam this is bowling. There are rules!"
by HAWKEYESBABY on Feb 20, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Just wait util Scott Wood leaves NC State.
That guy has the prettiest jumper, 3-point specialist. Leave him up and he’ll make the shot 75% of the time. He’s white however, so and he’ll probably never make it to the NBA regardless. It’s a nice thought tho.
by PanthersFTW on Feb 20, 2010 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Speaking of pure shooters...
Isn’t that basically what Fabio was for the B-Cats before they traded him for Nazr?
Or gulp Matt Carroll?
by PanthersFTW on Feb 20, 2010 12:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
nah Fabio was more than just a shooter
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Feb 20, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Carroll was part of the best jump shooting team that Larry Brown had ever coached
Now he gets less burn than Stevie Graham.
Sure we will.
Look at all the other ways we’ve parlayed our expiring deals for quality talent! Oh, wait, we got Nazr Mohammed.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
When Thomas hits RFA...
won’t we be wondering what we do for a power forward anyway?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Nor do they have the kind of attractiveness as an FA destination that those other teams and markets can offer.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
The opposing philosophy would be to...
…tank the next 2-3 seasons, alienate the fans, hope the lottery balls work out, hope the draft has an elite player, and hope there aren’t 8 other teams trying to do the same thing. If we lucked into the first pick during a draft where the next LeBron was available, and were fortunate enough to select him, there is still no guarantee we would do any better than we hope to do this season.
Our top lottery picks were Okafor and Felton. Very good players, but we already proved that these two players plus All-Star Wallace and a mix of other good players weren’t going to lead us to the finals.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 20, 2010 10:31 AM EST reply actions
Not really.
Who were those other good players, exactly? Nazr Mohammed? Further, while very good, Wallace was no All-Star before this year, in recognition or play. Let’s not pretend he was. And what exactly would “alienating” the fans do? Would the arena only be 50% full instead of 60%? BFD.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
If we tank 2-3 more seasons Nets style...
the arena would be 25% full instead of 60%. We don’t attend just for the ladycats and the music. We need to see some wins to keep coming back.
If we added another lottery pick to the Okafor, Felton, Wallace group, we still would not have reached the finals even if Wallace was playing All-Star level. Since we are likely playoff bound this season and likely in 2012, the 1st round picks aren’t going to be lottery picks.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 21, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
We were never even close to "tanking Nets style."
They’re currently on pace for fewer than eight wins. Even in the Bobcats’ expansion season, when they were limited by the league to a quarter the salary allocations allowed to other team, they were above twenty. Who said anything about “reaching the finals?” This team isn’t going to do that, even though we’ve spent tons of money and hampered our financial flexibility to make sure we get our 38-40 wins and make the playoffs. And as for the one move that’s definitively hurt this team’s performance upside (Chandler-for-Okafor), the supposed rationale is exactly the opposite: we were able to save money in the long term. So if we’re all about stocking up with talent, going balls to the wall and saying second round or bust and let the future be damned, why the fuck was that deal made?
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
To have the best chance at a franchise player with a top 3 pick
we would have to tank a season nets style.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Feb 21, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
Whoa There
It’s fine to hope the Bobcats are a playoff team in 2012, but you and I really have no idea how they will do. There will likely be a new owner, new coach, new management and many new players. Most of the current core will be past their prime if they are still in Charlotte at all.
The Bobcats haven’t made the playoffs ever yet. This year’s success is wonderful for the team and the city, but missing the playoffs this year is still far more likely than getting past the 1st round. Right now Charlotte would be the #8 seed and leads Milwaukee by only one game, and that’s with a relatively healthy team that plays its starters very heavy minutes. It’s no coincidence that the Bobcats are having their best year ever at the same time that Gerald Wallace has been able to stay healthy for the first season in his career.
by ClipCat on Feb 22, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks.
Somebody has to stay out of the Conference Finalist-bound looney bin.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 23, 2010 2:22 AM EST up reply actions
With one-year contracts...
You’re forced to try and attract a new core every single year. That’s why we’ve had to use scrubby rotation players like Stephen Graham and Flip Murray. Do you think Lamar Odom is ever going to sign in Charlotte to come off the bench for a 40-win #6 seed in front of 12,500 people a night? I’m thinking not. Sure, you might have to spend the fifth or sixth year of a star’s career trying to get them to stay around, but that doesn’t change the fact that you’ve spent those four or five years having them serve your franchise in getting demonstratively better.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
The Bobcats aren't a team
operating on 1 year contracts. Augustin, Wallace, Jackson, Henderson, Ajincia, Diaw, Mohammed, Chandler, and Diop are signed to multi-year contracts. Added that the general perception at the moment is that Felton and Thomas will be back next year, then this team is intact. They’re performing well enough to be a scary playoff team with all these trades, imagine what they could do when Larry gets the team he really wants and gets settled. The hottest thing around the NBA are expiring contracts. That’s not going to change by next year. We’ve got a monster contract in Tyson Chandler coming off the cap. That is going to be a huge asset next year, and the Bobcats may try to trade him for another great player locked in a long term contract trying to be dumped by their franchise (Jamison).
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 21, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Whose "general perception?"
Ray Felton was offered a very reasonable (even overly generous) contract last summer as an RFA, and turned it down despite having no other interest from any other team. It strikes me that means he doesn’t really want to stick around.
As for Thomas, we can assume he’ll actually have some interest on the FA market (unlike Mr. Felton.) Let’s take a look at what some of the contracts earned by some of last summer’s FA post players (remembering that there was far less overall money available.)
Charlie Villanueva-5 yrs., $40 million
Anderson Varejao-6 yrs., $42 million
Paul Millsap-4 yrs., $32 million
Marcin Gortat-5 yrs., $34 million
Chris Andersen-5 yrs., $26 million
Would you really say that any of those players are demonstrably better than Thomas considering both ability and upside? I wouldn’t, yet I wouldn’t feel particularly comfortable paying the salaries that any but Andersen are getting to Thomas.
And the reason the expiring contracts are so “hot” is because of the monster FA class that will be available next summer. Won’t be the case next year.
P.S.: I wasn’t the one who suggested the one-year contract scenario. That was from your OP.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 21, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Economic Reality (To add to your post)
We do not know how much the Bobcats are willing to spend next season, but we do know that they have consistently lost money since their inaugural season. This season, their payroll is middle of the pack at $68 million dollars. Next season, they already have $59.5 million committed to 10 players before even considering Felton or Thomas. So it’s not much of a stretch to say the Bobcats aren’t likely to retain both Felton and Thomas next season since pretty much every dollar they are paid is money the owner is likely to lose.
We can sit here and
go back and forth about whether Felton and Thomas return next year. My money is on them returning, but really only time will tell, so there’s really no use to debate in it. Regardless of if they returned or not though, we would still have a very solid core in Augustin, Jackson, Wallace, and Diaw, who fill up four starting position needs alone.
I think one thing you’re failing to take into account with Thomas is that he’s a restricted free agent, so, that means we have the final say. Sure, we may risk overpaying for him, but that’s the nature of the beast. Bottom line, we decide whether he plays here or not next year. If a team wants to pay a ridiculous amount of money for him, so be it. But teams will be focusing on the free agents more than the restricted free agents.
You can say that expiring contracts are “hot” because of the free agent class, but you’re forgetting that people just want to save money in general to get away from the luxury tax. Sure, Chicago and New York have made moves to sign a big time free agent, but what about teams like New Orleans and Utah? They’ve given away very good players in Ronnie Brewer, Rasual Butler, and Eric Maynor, all for the chance to save a few bucks. We’re just now beginning to rebound from a recession. Regardless of if there is a free agent out there or not, teams are still going to want to save money. Like I said, that won’t change by next year.
P.S.: You weren’t the one that suggested the one year contract scenario, but you twisted it up enough for it to might as well be out your own mouth. My ideal of it was that you can replace a mid 1st round pick with a veteran out there on the market for the midlevel exception. It doesn’t have to be for one year, but it can, and probably should. Take Flip Murray for example. Regardless of if you want to blame it on playing time or whatever, he was a last second free agent that contributed a lot more to us than our 1st rounder, Gerald Henderson. Also, because we only signed him to a one year deal, he had an expiring contract, and thus became a very important piece in us being able to trade for Thomas. You’re suggesting it as if I’m saying make a whole team with one year contracts. No. You put your core players in place (Wallace, Jackson, Felton, DJ, Boris, and Thomas), and you pick up good role players with a one year contract because they are always out there. Always.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 22, 2010 9:17 AM EST reply actions
I'd hardly call Brewer, Butler, and Maynor "very good."
What have any of them actually done? When you can plug an undrafted rookie like Wes Matthews into your starting lineup and get decent production out of him, maybe it’s the system, not the player.
And how the hell do we know Henderson couldn’t have produced as much or more than Murray? He never got a chance to see the court.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 22, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
I'd call them
very good players considering they were playing big roles for their teams. Not saying that they are elite, or even 2nd tier players, but whatever team any of them play for, they are going to get minutes. Derron Williams is upset with the Jazz for trading Brewer because he knows it’s only to save money and they are not trying to win a championship.
And whatever the reasons may be for Henderson, the fact is, he still hasn’t contributed anything at all this year. I’m sure he could do some things in the future.
by Charlotte Bobcat on Feb 22, 2010 5:43 PM EST reply actions
Larry Brown is the only reason a rookie needs to never make an impact.
Advance apologies if the contents of this sports-based post offended you. I'm just aiming to educate the masses. My law professor says they're asses.
by MichaelProcton on Feb 23, 2010 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
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