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Thoughts on the Tyson Chandler for Emeka Okafor Trade

(UPDATE: The trade is official. The team emailed the press release and everything.)

We've all seen the FanShot. We've all had our knee jerk reactions to the possible Emeka Okafor for Tyson Chandler trade. The SB Nation Hornets blog, At the Hive, is cautiously optimistic. I brought the FanShot to the front page, then went to my yoga class to seek serenity. (Really, I did.) Now that I'm back, I think I've settled into a tentative position on the trade as reported.

 

 

Star-divide

There is no way this is about present day talent and it can't be about saving money in the present day; look up all the stats and scouting reports you want, but Chandler doesn't quite match up to Okafor, and he makes more money each of the next two seasons. If the Bobcats make this trade thinking they are getting the better present day player, it will be dumb luck if it works out in our favor. Okafor is an elite defender, whereas Chandler is very good when he's at his best, but Okafor's also had a better or equal PER each year they've both been in the league, and that's with lesser PGs in Charlotte (to say the least).

I get the sense Chandler is in a similar place today that Okafor was two seasons ago. He is coming off injury-marred seasons, his offense is stagnant, and he's at a crossroads, in the sense that nobody's sure if he has any room to develop further. Except... he's also the same age as Okafor, so he's older than Mek was then, and he also has never been quite the defender Okafor is and was.

All that said, from pure talent, Chandler certainly has the capacity to match Okafor's production. I'd bet on Okafor to perform better next season, but it wouldn't be a shock if Okafor regressed a little and Chandler improved a little, and they were either equal or Chandler did better. I would also bet on Okafor playing more games next season, since Chandler's toe injury is pretty scary, but it wouldn't be shocking if Chandler stayed healthy.

Which leads to the possible silver lining, and the point to start talking yourself into the trade. Okafor's contract expires in 2014. Chandler's expires in 2011. Mohammed and Radmanovic also expire after the 2010-11 season. All this time, I've been advocating that the Bobcats start paying more attention to contracts and gaining flexibility so that they could actually have a possibility open to bring in a superstar. Having those three contracts all expire at the same time is a significant advantage going into the summer that Carmelo Anthony will likely be available, plus a few other very desirable free agents. All that, and it provides some payroll clarity through a projectable time frame; teams should almost always want short term contracts so that they can roll with any punch.

In the end, though, I can't support the trade wholeheartedly. Okafor is better today. He's a better bet to be better next season and beyond. He's a better bet to actually play more games next season and beyond. Though his contract runs longer, he produces in line with the salary he's paid, so it's not like we'd be gaining any present or future payroll equity with the trade. And finally, while payroll flexibility is a very good thing, it's good in the service of getting championship caliber players. Emeka Okafor, a guy producing up to his pay grade, is the kind of player you want around when you're trying to convince a future Hall of Famer to come to Charlotte and lead a championship squad.

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The Hornets were willing to move Chandler for Ben Wallace before he was bought out.

What the fuck does that tell you about this retarded fucking move? I guess I’ll have to be a Hawks fan.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 8:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh.

And Chandler couldn’t pass a physical as recently as June.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Finally...

Weren’t you one of the sane people who was willing to admit we’ll never lure top FA talent to Charlotte?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we can lure top talent here, because money rules all. The thing is that we’d need a very good foundation in place, whereas a place like Los Angeles or Miami or New York, or any other “destination city” team (see: not Milwaukee, etc.) can simply sell its location as a prime attraction. In those cases, the superstar could attract the supporting cast, whereas with us, we’ll always need to attract the superstar. (Barring drafting one.)

by David A. Arnott on Jul 28, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

And what about the dependable double-double guy?

You know, the type of which there are only about six to ten in the entire league? Where has that guy gone for the next five years? Looks like to New Orleans.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If this Happens...

Being a Knicks fan wouldnt look like a bad option, at least there GM knows not to give there best player away for a guy who was orginally going to be traded for Joe Smith and Chris Wilcox

by Civardi on Jul 27, 2009 9:15 PM EDT reply actions  

However, since the main reason I became a Cats fan was because of Okafor...

Does that mean I would become a Hornets fan? COME ON CHARLOTTE DONT TRADE EMEKA UNLESS YOU GET CHRIS PAUL IN RETURN

by Civardi on Jul 27, 2009 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

At least there's one silver lining

Let Procton stink up Atlanta’s message boards for a while :)

Seriously though, this is a deal that we should all be skeptical of. Though Chandler’s production isn’t that much less than Okafor’s, it’s still less. And yes, the toe is a red flag for everyone. I just don’t see Charlotte being able to use that cap space effectively when it opens up.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 9:18 PM EDT reply actions  

God, and you people bitch about Emeka being weak offensively...

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You people?

Who people do you mean good sir?

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

The ones...

who think Felton will be a surefire All-Star once he “gets in the right system.”

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You hyperbole amuses me

There’s probably one 12 year old boy in all of NC who believes that Felton is a surefire all star. The rest of us rip him needlessly or take a rational view of his weaknesses and strenghts.

Felton fans and Okafor fans are not mutually exclusive. You have created a false dichotomy between the two.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

Fans of Okafor know a quality NBA starter when they see him. Fans of Felton are chasing a UNC dream hoping he’ll someday be an above-average NBA PG.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, not this guy. I’m a diehard Heels fan. But I exercise common sense when it comes to matters like this. I think at best, Felton is a decent PG.

"A Tar Heel Born and a Tar Heel bred, and when i die ill be a Tar Heel dead."

by mad_dog_maddux on Jul 27, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

At best felton is a solid defensive minded point guard to can control the tempo of eh game.

I also am a fan of Okafor. I’ve had an OKafor jersey since ’04!

Being a fan of Felton & Okafor are not mutually exclusive.

by dudemanhey on Jul 27, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

See that's exactly what I mean...A false dichotomy

I am a fan of both Felton and Okafor

There is middle ground.

you’re a dramatic little twerp aren’t you Procton?

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chandler/Paul for Felton/Okafor

Now that’s a deal I can support!

Before anyone tells me how crazy I am, it’s wishful thinking.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 9:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Hell of a deal

For Charlotte…
Retarded for NO

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I'm one of the few

But I like this trade. Let’s face it, we’ll never get anywhere in the east with Okafor at the 5. Yea, we might sneak into the playoffs, but Emeka just can’t defend other big men in this league. How many times has Andrew Bogut dominated him over the past few years?

If we got in a 7 game series with the Magic or Celtics, the series would instantly be over because we couldn’t defend their frontlines. Chandler has good size, has really bulked up since coming into the league, and could be the first real 5 we’ve had that could start.

I hope we really make them take Mohammed off our hands as well, and they could throw a player back at us. How about Posey or Daniels for instance? That deal would work.

I think it’s imperative that we find some way of getting rid of Nazr in this deal.

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 9:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Like your optimism,

But you’ll learn. If this trade goes through, our competition is not Boston and Orlando – it’s Indiana and New Jersey except that those team’s are much further along in the rebuilding process. The Bobcats apparantly are just beginning the tear down phase. There will not be any 7 game series for a long, long time, and James Posey would be as irrelevant on a lottery team as he was before he landed in Boston.

by ClipCat on Jul 27, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

THIS

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Duh...

Yes we will be competing with Indiana and New Jersey….for the 7th or 8th seed in the east. So we can play Boston or Orlando in the playoffs. Think before you type please.

This ain’t the Clippers….why don’t you take your negative attitude over to the Clips’ blog. take Procto with you! I know you’re used to an NBA culture of losing, but we don’t need (or want) to hear it in NC!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

ClipCat has been a valued member of this blog and avid Bobcat's fan,

and in his defense he has brought more opinions and views to the table than I have ever seen you bring, so I would think a little harder next time before berating another user of this blog. I suggest you take your own advice and ‘think before you type’.

The truth is we won’t be competing solely with Indiana or New Jersey, but also Toronto and Washington who were worse than us last season, but have made significant moves. We are getting worse with this proposed trade and with Chandler and no added FA’s we lose scoring, something we need to take where we can get.

Do you like Nazr Mohammed or DeSagana Diop starting? I hope so, because with Chandler you’ll be seeing them start at least 20 games.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

...if by 20 you mean 60.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is mere...

…hyperbole and conjecture on your part. Yes Chandler may get injured, but so might Okafor, or Arenas, or LBJ…or who knows?

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

One player has a history of injury and missed a majority of last season... one didn't

One player had a trade voided last year for medical reasons, the other didn’t.
One player has played 80+ once in 8 years, the other played 80+ twice in 5 years.

I for one, fail to see the conjecture

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but isn't the hyperbole evident?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

So we can assume...

…that any player who ever has an injury will never be able to get healthy again?
 Is that what you are implying?

Using that logic we should definitely ditch Wallace & give up on Augustin since they both sustained injuries last season.

Look, i like Okafor and hate to see him leaving…but this trade is not as bad as y’all drama queens are making it out to be!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alright then dudemanhey

lets revisit this moment in 6 months and we’ll see who’s making a bigger deal out of it.

I have said from moment 1 that unless we are getting another player or a draft pick this is the worst mistake this franchise has made.

I’d rather be a passionate ‘drama queen’ than an apathetic sheep.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely NOT as bad...

…as the Nazr Mohammed move. Or the hiring of Sam Vincent. Or the drafting of Sean May or Adam Morrison. No where close!

In six months we will see. Hopefully Chandler will be a healthy and productive part of the Bobcats. Unlike the the eternal optimists on here like you and Procto, i’ll reserve my judgement on the value of this trade until then. If Chandler is in street clothes all next season then that obviously will suck…I’m just not ready to condemn the move until we see what happens!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Chandler turns into a 20 and 10 guy I'll be the first to eat my words...

but right now I’m upset and feel I have a right to be, and we’ll see in 6 months what the correct decision should have been.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okafor missed the majority of...

…05-06 with injuries too. I hope Chandler’s health will be alright, but any players health can turn bad in the blink of eye!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Last I checked...

That’s almost five years ago, not five months.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes.

Dudeman, on the other hand, knows we have every reason to be positive given how great the product on the court has been.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shoot.... why don't we continue the firesale

Let’s trade Gerald Wallace for Quentin Richardson, move Diaw for Zach Randolph then trade DJ Augustin (after all, Felton is the future) for Marquis Daniels.

Our lineup would be amazing!

PG: Felton
SG: Bell
SF: Richardson
PF: Randolph
C: Chandler

CHAMPIONSHIP

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why not!?

If we’re having a fire sale, let’s make it a true fire sale for Bob Johnson… after all, lets save the great man some money.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Have the Cats not improved their season record every year?

Do you expect an expansion team to be competing for a title and playoff spot immediately? Building a franchise takes time, and cannot be done with the snap of a finger. Any reasonabel fan should be encouraged by the improvements the Bobcats have made from three seasons ago until now. I still expect LB to produce more wins then last season and hopefully a playoff berth.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, they actually haven't.

They went from 33 wins in ‘06-’07 to 32 in ‘07-’08. And yes, I would expect building a franchise to take time. That’s why knee-jerk moves like trading for Mohammed, Radmanovic, and Diop were stupid as stupid can be. You may expect a playoff berth. I expect another late-season flameout and a mid-lotto pick.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

NO THEY HAVEN'T

2006-07: 33-49
2007-08: 32-50

Doesn’t seem like an improvement every year to me.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks Sam Vincent!

That’s why Sam is gone and Larry Brown is the new head coach. Haven’t y’all heard? He’s got, like championship rings and stuff!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

A convienient excuse, I suppose.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

A "fact" based on what, precisely?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The nosedive began long before LB got to NYC.

Isiah assembled a $100 million payroll with nothing but overpaid castoffs. No one is denying that LB had a terrible season for the one year that he was coach, but its also a bit of an exaggeration to say LB drove the franchise into the ground. Why would anyone ever think Starbury and LB would be a good mix?

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would he sign on if he couldn't do the job?

Money-grubber.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Money-grubber or just a big ego?

Talented, intelligent people can be blinded by their own abilities. I’m sure Larry Brown thought he was just the guy who could turn the Knicks around and saw them as a challenge to solve. Turned out he was completely wrong, and probably no one could have turned that mess around in one year. Brown didn’t create the Knicks’ problems, but he sure didn’t solve them either.

by ClipCat on Jul 28, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, the 'gotcha' would be...

asking you why it’s immediately Vincent’s fault for losing 1 less game, yet Larry Brown because savior of the universe for giving us two more wins than Bickerstaff.

No doubt the team is improving under Brown, and I thought they were going to make big strides this year but you can’t change the grounds of your argument from ‘Bobcats have improved every year’ to ‘Larry Brown will improve us every year’ simply because your statement was found incorrect.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I almost included the word "almost" in the headline up there because i knew tools like you and Procto would harp on it.

Sam Vincent had never coached an NBA team before. Larry Brown has won an NBA Championship. Vincent was in over his head and was an awful coach! Period.

Brown tried to rebuild the roster into a winning team by making more moves than practically every other NBA team last season. Vincent instigated the acquisition of Nazr Mohammed.

So you want to make a case for Vincent? Go ahead and have fun….i imagine that should work out for you as well as coaching did for Sam.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not arguing for Sam Vincent, I never was

What I am saying is that after making the incorrect statement ‘that the Bobcats have improved every season’ you are now attempting to turn this back on Procton and myself rather than admitting you made an incorrect statement and moving on.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many times HAS Andrew Bogut "dominated" Okafor?

1-15-07 (Bobcats loss): Bogut 27-11 in 38 minutes; Okafor 17-12 in 34
Bogut has a better game, but hardly dominates
11-2-07 (Bobcats win): Bogut 11-17 in 34 minutes; Okafor 17-14 in 37.
Okafor has better game.
12-22-07 (Bobcats loss): Bogut 14-10 in 38 minutes, Okafor 17-8 in 37
Even
1-6-08 (Bobcats loss): Bogut 25-8 in 35 minutes, Okafor 10-5 in 28 minutes
I still wouldn’t call it “domination,” but I’ll give it to you since your argument is looking shaky so far.
11-22-08 (Bobcats loss): Bogut 12-17 in 41 minutes, Okafor 16-18 in 39 minutes
Okafor better
12-5-08 (Bobcats loss): Bogut 10-10 in 34 minutes, Okafor 19-8 in 35 minutes
Okafor better
1-2-09 (Bobcats loss): Bogut 2-5 in 27 minutes, Okafor 11-12 in 33 minutes
Okafor dominates.

In seven head-to-head games, those averages are:
Bogut-14.4 PPG, 11.1 RPG in 35.3 MPG
Okafor-15.3 PPG, 11.0 RPG in 34.7 MPG

Lots of domination, obviously.

Chandler is soft, is even more offensively inept than Okafor, and will get backed down by a tough center in a minute (note his 11-9 career average against Shaq and Amare in Phoenix.)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting note

but the Bobcats lost all but one of those head to head match-ups.

Some people (not me) would take a great deal of meaning from that stat.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bucks have had a better team?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you kidding me?

“The Bucks have had a better team?”

I guess you’re asking a question. Well I’ll answer the question. The games you listed spanned from 2007-2009. The Bucks winning % for 07, 08, and 09 were .341, .317, and .415 respectively. For the same span Charlotte’s winning % are .402, .390, and .427.

Do you ever look at facts before you write a comment Procton?

Please look up your facts before you speak next time.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And how much have injuries to Redd and Bogut (who obviously played in all the games listed)...

had to do with those overall numbers? Please look up some injury archives before you come at me with overall record.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bucks are not better than Charlotte

With or without Redd. I’m going to assume you wouldn’t argue that the Bucks are better than Charlotte when Bogut is playing since that would basically rip you Okafor is better than Bogut argument to shreds

But you are known for contradicting yourself.

You don’t have three consecutive losing seasons just because one player has been hurt. Redd played the majority of games in 07 and 08. Jefferson should have compensated for Redd last season, but didn’t.

Besides, Charlotte’s had their own injuries to deal with. Get your facts straight Procton

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it wouldn't really...

Okafor can be a hundred times better than Bogut if the supporting cast isn’t as good.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Charlotte's supportin cast has been as good

That’s why Charlotte’s winning % has been better than Milwaukee’s for the past three seasons.

How does that logic escape you?

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I could've went with a real Center

Let’s compare him to let’s say uhh, Dwight Howard:

11-23-07
DH – 34 pts 17 reb 4 blk 37 min
EO – 12 pts 18 reb 1 blk 30 min

12-14-07
DH – 33 pts 18 reb 4 blk 39 min
EO – 16 pts 12 reb 0 blk 36 min

12-29-07
DH – 15 pts 21 reb 4 blk 42 min
EO – 4 pts 9 reb 4 blk 27 min

1-16-08
DH – 24 pts 21 reb 1 blk 42 min
EO – 7 pts 7 reb 0 blk 26 min

8-16-08
DH – 4 pts 7reb 26 min
EO – 8 pts 9 reb 23 min

2-17-09
Dwight Howard – 45 pts 19 reb 46 min
Okafor – 14 pts 9 reb 35 min

2-20-09
DH – 13 pts 16 reb 6 blk 35 min
EO – 13pts 11 reb 3blk 28 min

4-15-09 – last game of season, Okafor barely played

Howard – 24 ppg 17 rpg 38 mpg
Okafor – 10.5 ppg 11 rpg 29 mpg

BTW, Bogut is a career 11 and 9 guy so his averages against Okafor are still better than his career. That is probably true about a lot of Centers in the league.

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's interesting, then...

That you chose to simply ignore two years of these guys’ careers.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Furthermore,

You’re real center (still not really understanding why Bogut isn’t a ‘real center’) is arguably the best center in the league, and one of the top 5 players in the league. No one has made that claim of Okafor.

Why don’t we compare Gerald Wallace’s head to head with LeBron James?

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gerald wasn't drafted #2 overall like Okafor.

Why'd the Mets, of all teams, have to draft John Maine!?!?

by Ninerballin on Jul 29, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

He also wasn't drafted #2 like Darko Milicic.

Who precisely would have been a better pick in that spot?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does that even have to do with it Ninerballin?

You were trying to compare Okafor with Dwight Howard… while I like Okafor I don’t think anyone is willing to say their in the same league. It makes no difference where they were drafted, that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion.

I simply pointed out that it would be as ridiculous as statistically comparing Gerald Wallace and LeBron James.

by James The Aussie on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like the way you think Niner

Unloading Nazr would make this deal much easier to swallow. Considering that this deal already means taking on a lot more salary for NO (a team that has been desperately trying to dump salary) I can’t imagine them going for it.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 9:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Well then Posey isn't such a bad option.

I guarantee you that the Hornets wouldn’t put Daniels in the deal for someone like Nazr. Daniels has 1 year left on his contract, and Nazr has 2. Posey would help relieve some cap space since Nazr’s contract is up in 2 years and Posey has 3 years remaining. That being said, I’m wiling to be the Hornets have tried their best to get Bell thrown into this deal with his expiring contract.

They really need some cap relief next year with the contracts of Devin Brown, Hilton Armstrong, Julian Wright, and All Star David West running out. I don’t know what options they have left, but I’m pretty sure they’d try their best to keep West and Wright, maybe Armstrong.

Also by trading Posey, they’d open up more time for Wright to see the floor behind Peja.

I’m sure things are being discussed, but hopefully Michael & Co. doesn’t let NO steal away our 2nd most efficient player for just Chandler in return.

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kind of sad...

As a closet Bobcats fan, if Emeka has to go I wish he could go somewhere to play in his natural position. He could be really dangerous as a 4 with a center who could shoot.

Also Chandler is really pretty terrible and was basically immobile whenever his toe acts up—some places are reporting this is a wash, but Okafor is by far more talented.

Zach I know we don't love each other, but please don't punch me.

by djturtleface on Jul 27, 2009 10:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Not that I'm loving this trade...

but this is no time for over-valuing Okafor’s talents. If you look at all the stats, both are similar players. If Chandler’s toe isn’t better then it goes w/out saying a healthy Okafor is better. Hopefully Charlotte’s FO has good reason to believe Chandler’s toe has healed and he’ll be ready to play.

Okafor is a great player, but he’s a center all the way. He’s played the 4 along Brezec (a center who could shoot, but do little else) and Nazr and he simply doesn’t work there.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Similar is one thing.

But why would we pay more to get an inferior version (in terms of durability, productivity, and cost) of a player we already have. Again, Chandler couldn’t pass a physical as of JUNE!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brezec and Nazr...

Aren’t exactly starting quality centers in the NBA. Okafor is undersized at center, but now that I look at the stats it is clear he plays better at the 5. Strange because I recall lots of hoopla when Nazr was starting a year ago that Okafor was extremely happy at PF.

Also I agree they’re similar, but Chandler seems to be declining quickly and has the CP3 factor. Okafor seems to be figuring things out. I don’t think it’s overvaluing to call him far more valuable from a purely basketball (non-financial) standpoint.

Zach I know we don't love each other, but please don't punch me.

by djturtleface on Jul 27, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again

If Chandler isn’t healthy then you’re right, Okafor is the far better player. Since Chandler’s coming to the Bobcats I’m hoping that isn’t the case, however. If he’s healthy, he’s not that big of a drop off statistically.

Also, I never meant to imply that Nazr and Brezec were good players, just that Okafor would have played much better alongside them if he were a 4 instead of a 5.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

So if it's still a dropoff, as you admit...

Then what was the point? We don’t get younger, we don’t get cheaper, we don’t get better.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

We do get cheaper

When Chandler comes off the books along with Nazr and Vlad there’s a lot of money off the books?

What do the Bobs do w/ all that money? That’s why it’s a risk. That’s why everyone, including me asked ourselves “what the fuck?” when we saw the trade?
 
Again, no need for the “as you admit” business. You have nothing to prove to me. I am very skeptical that this is a good move for the Bobcats. I am simply trying to view the situation in a reasonable way.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spinning it as a good move any way possible...

Is not “reasonable.” Sometimes, you have to call a spade a spade. Take a look at our history. Who’s the best FA we’ve ever acquired again?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

What?

Ok I have to now conclude that you DO NOT READ what I’m writing.

How many times have I stated that I am skeptical of this trade? Go ahead and read it again. I’ve asked you NOT to argue with me over this being a bad trade, since you didn’t have to prove to me that it is a bad trade.

I’m not trying to convince you that this is a good trade. How many times do I have to say it?

Why don’t you read what I’m writing and not what you want to hear. If you’re looking for an argument go bother Scott Fowler some more.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those stats have actually flipped since he came in the league.

When he was first starting out, he was a better player (offensively and defensively) at center, but lately, he’s been better at PF. Then again, he’s had little opportunity to play both in the same system.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is

Okafor has never played with a true Center. He’s played with scrubs. You put him on a frontline with another banger donw low, and he’d be a better player.

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

And durable, and cheaper...

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're actually paying LESS for Chandler

That’s the supposed purpose of the trade. No need to argue with me over how bad it is. I’m not advocating the trade is a good one.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, we're not.

We’re simply getting rid of a longer-term contract.

‘09-’10: Okafor $10.5 mil, Chandler $11.9 mil
‘10-’11: Okafor $11.5 mil, Chandler $12.8 mil

And people legitimately complain Okafor doesn’t earn his salary.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which means we're paying less

Freeing up cap room for the long term is the unquestioned benefit of this deal. Again, don’t argue with me over whether that is a good or bad thing. But we are paying Chandler LESS money.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who cares?

If we earn a top-3 pick in the ’11 draft, what FA will want to come here such that we can use any “freed up cap room?”

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well that's your point to reason

I’m not saying you should care. I’m saying that it is what it is. There may be reason not to like the deal, but there’s no need for hyperbole. This deal is cheaper for the Bobcats.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes...

…but what about the years after that?

Chandler’s contract ends and goes off the books while Okafor’s goes to 14.5 million — increasing every year. It IS a cost cutting move no matter how you slice it.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

How ABOUT the years after that?

There is no better player who would sign for the same or less, period.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is the most obsene trade I have seen proposed since the debacle that brought Pau Gasol to L.A...

The only thing I can hope and pray if it gets done is that it’s part of some larger deal moving Felton.

I am in shock, I am in disbelief…. Okafor is younger, better, higher character and a guy who has busted his ass day in and day out since he became this franchise’s cornerstone.

The NBA fan in me is laughing that the Bobcats would make this deal, the Bobcats fans in me is getting ready to die a little if it becomes an actuality.

by James The Aussie on Jul 27, 2009 10:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow

Trust me, i’m not the biggest Okafor fan. But when I saw the headline, I was like the Cats must be dumping Nazr’s contract too. But alas, when I read it fully, I almost puked in my mouth. So now we have 3 overpaid, lumbering centers on our roster. Oh yeah, gotta love the FO on this one. Oh well, many more years of mediocrity on the horizon.

"A Tar Heel Born and a Tar Heel bred, and when i die ill be a Tar Heel dead."

by mad_dog_maddux on Jul 27, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions  

First Question that needs to be asked...

The first question that needs to be asked by the Bobcats braintrust and we 27 bobcats’ fans out there…

Why would the Hornets be so willing to unload Chandler’s soon to be expiring contract for an equally bad contract that lasts for the next 5 seasons? Honestly, these two players pretty equal when healthy. The only think I can think of is that the Hornets know that Chandler is damaged goods and they don’t want to pay him for nothing for the next 2 seasons.

by Swollenstein on Jul 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Again...

They were willing to dump him for Ben Wallace. The Ben Wallace who may or may not be about to retire.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

And...

they unsuccessfully tried to dump him on OKC last season

by ClipCat on Jul 27, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Might it be

I wouldn’t be surprised if Okafor isn’t dealt by the Hornets later on for an expiring contract. They really need to free some cap space to sign David West, who’s a better player than Okafor.

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

So why were we the ones...

that had to take their shittier contract for a shittier player so they could have their space? The kindness of our hearts? They certainly didn’t let Gerald or Brown shack up during summer league.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

excellent grammar there swollenstein. Guess I was a little eager.

by Swollenstein on Jul 27, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember when

Everyone was crying when Jason Richardson & Dudley got traded to the Suns. I don’t know about the people of this blog, but other places (forums) which I were posting were saying it was a terrible trade and grilled me when I refuted that opinion. Next thing you know they were saying it was genius.

I’ll trust LB on this one, if he thinks Chandler can help, then I’ll trust him.

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions  

LB also thought Linton Johnson and Andre Brown were great rotation players...

Whoops. He also thinks Alexis Ajinca is awesome. Take off the Brown fanboy glasses and realize he didn’t make this team any better by guaranteeing mediocrity at high cost.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brown has one rings and his 2nd year stats are great. How many rings do you have? Maybe you should coach the team, have you given MJ a call? Because it’s that easy right?

BTW, that’s really good, bash a 21 year old project center who barely plays.

Why'd the Mets, of all teams, have to draft John Maine!?!?

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you think we should have kept Johnson and Brown, then?

And you think Ajinca will produce like a top 5 pick this year (that’s where he would have gone, remember?)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well Larry Brown didn't think we should have kept Johnson and Brown

Those were pretty low cost moves for bringing in those two guys. You’re really stretching if that’s what you want to criticize Brown for. You can do better Procton

Ajinca was drafted as a project. Everyone knows that. Unrealistic expectations on a project player in his second season is stupid. Before you start wagging your finger at me Procton. No I am not saying that Ajinca will pan out. I’m saying that he’s a project and you or I or most other people don’t know how good he’ll end up being.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aha...

You know who else was a project once upon a time? Darko Milicic. Now THERE’S a move that’s worked out well.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

A stats guy like you should know better...

Well, you don’t really know stats too well either so I guess you shouldn’t.

Pointing to ONE move does not speak to a person’s overall abilities. Come up with some substance before you speak.

Yes Darko was a bad choice in retrospect. That says nothing about Ajinca. Come up with a better argument.

Are you going to ignore Brown’s proven ability to turn teams into winners? Just look at his coaching numbers. He wins a lot of games. So if you’re going to complain, make it about something compelling.

Stick to the Chandler trade, because this may be a time when you can say something that makes sense.

by and1droid on Jul 27, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you have an argument for why Ajinca will be a productive NBA player?

Is it because he played second division ball in France?
Is it because he looked good warming up for the Bobcats?
Is it because of his mediocre D-League stats?

Larry Brown is a great coach, but many of his choices haven’t worked out, especially when it comes to developing young players. And many of his teams have quickly fallen apart shortly after he left them for better opportunities elsewhere. I fear the same thing is about to happen in Charlotte. That may just be an opinion, but it’s informed by the many, many stops in his turbulent career.

by ClipCat on Jul 28, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well at least you know when you're specualting

Which I respect. We’re all speculating here. Some of us are just more aware of that than others.

Ajinca is an unknown commodity in the NBA. There’s no real template for a guys his size with his skills. No need arguing how he’ll turn out because we don’t know.

The same people who are pointing to Darko and New York also decided to criticize Brown for giving low risk fringe players a shot at playing when Charlotte’s front court was terribly thin. You lose credibility Procton because it’s evident that you come up with whatever random shit you can think of to rip people that you don’t like. There’s nothing reasonable about anything you say. Go up and read out above conversations and it’s evident you’re not even reading my comments before you respond to them

Kudos to ClipCat and others for at least making sense. You may some good points about Larry Brown, but I seriously don’t believe that he’s ready to jump ship right now. If he does, you’re right, it’s a despicable move. And I will miss Okafor.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brown also proved...

That he could run a franchise into the ground and leave complaining they didn’t pay him enough. And the Darko pick was far from the only move I criticized.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really I didn’tk now Ajinca got selected in the Top 5.

Why'd the Mets, of all teams, have to draft John Maine!?!?

by Ninerballin on Jul 29, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Larry Brown swore up and down that Ajinca was a great pick last year because he was sure he would have been a top five pick this year. ha. Ha. HA.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

The difference was that trade made sense, even if it was tough to swallow.

It was clear to see why Larry brown made the move. He wanted to bolster the roster with veteran leadership, and re-unite him with one of ‘his guys’ in Raja Bell. I supported that trade, I was chastised on message boards for calling it a great move. I don’t think this is a great move.

If this is truly a 1 for 1 trade we are losing an immense amount of value. If the deal magically includes a protected draft pick, or Julian Wright, maybe it will make sense. But this isn’t even a true cap dump, just shortening a deal.

Like I said earlier, the only reason this pill would be easier to swallow would be if it is part of a larger trade.

by James The Aussie on Jul 27, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was very good recognition

Myself, I overrated J-Rich and underrated Diaw. I thought the Bobcats would regret losing J-Rich’s scoring since there were so few reliable scorers left on the team. And I recognized Diaw’s scoring and rebounding deficiencies more than his passing and intangibles. Diaw and Bell were just what Brown needed.

This deal is in a far different category from any of last season’s moves, and I doubt that Brown sanctioned it. Chandler has none of the subtleties in his game that Diaw possesses and is a lesser version of Okafor in jsut about every aspect of the game. Unless Paul or West is also in the deal, Charlotte loses big.

by ClipCat on Jul 27, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

The main differences between Okafor & Chandler are:

1) Okafor has been healthier.

&

2) Chandler has much better hands. (Chris Paul loves Tyson Chandler. He says Chandler can go get any alley oop thrown his way.)

(Big) IF. But IF Chandler stays healthy the trade might actually pan out as far as putting the ball in the basket is concerned. That said, I still await the details of the trade and hope that the ‘Cats are getting some other compensation — another player, draft pick, cash, they take Nzr too, etc. If not, then i don’t see it as an upgrade for Charlotte.

 I’ve been a fan of Okafor from day one and we’ll definitely hate to see his guraunteed double-double leave the Bobcats no matter what!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

He has “better hands?” In what way, precisely, has that translated on the court? If you can’t even put up 9 PPG playing starter’s minutes next to Chris Paul, you’ll make Okafor look like David Robinson.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with the comment about Chandler having 'better hands'...

but to be fair the Hornets ran all of their big man and post play through David West. Chandler was there to be a big body in the lane and nothing more.

Of course I’ve already gone through 4 stages of grieving overnight and have hit stage 5, acceptance.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Argee or not

Chandler has larger hands, and actually can catch the ball cleanly (for a change) out of mid-air. Overall, Okafor is the better player — but be realistic in assessing his abilities. Okafor is clumsy on offense, and has a knack for fumbling passes thrown his way. Even if he corrals them eventually, I’ve seen many, many easy scoring opportunities lost because Okafor could not catch the ball cleanly.

There are certain things on the basketball court, that statistics will never show, Procto. Had you ever actually played team basketball you might be able to understand that. “There are three types of lies: Lies, damn lies, & statistics!”

Bottom line regarding the trade: If Chandler’s toes is a problem, then this is pure salary dump and it will hurt the Bobcats’ chances next year. If Chandler is healthy, then Charlotte will continue to improve and not really lose anything on the court.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okafor is clumsy, but Chandler is a magnet...

That must be why Chandler averages more turnovers/48 (2.7 to 2.5) while getting fewer shots/48 (9.6 to 15.9) and a virtually identical number of assists (1.5 to 1.3.) And yes, I’ve certainly played plenty of basketball in my time, but that doesn’t chance anything about the fact that Okafor is better than Chandler in every way. Just out of curiosity, if (and it’s a major if) Chandler happens to be healthy for the first time in over a year, why would Charlotte improve with him? He’s been in the league longer than Okafor and is exceptionally unlikely to improve to even being the same player as Okafor, much less better.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because

the whole TEAM is improving under Brown’s system in time. Not just individual players. Remeber, this a TEAM sport.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right...

And if your TEAM is made of inferior players, it’s going to be hard for it to be a better TEAM.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

The fire sale has begun

This trade makes sense from one standpoint. The Bobcats are losing money, and Bob Johnson cannot sell the team for his asking price. He’s decided he will lose less money by gutting the team than by keeping it together, and he’s getting started in a big way.

The Bobcats have long been a two player team (Okafor and Wallace) as far as marketing and fan interest. Giving up either of these two players in a move that obviously doesn’t make basketball sense is a red flag that the front office is now being directed by the owner to focus on cutting costs rather than fielding a quality team that draws fans. If the Bobcats are willing to give up one of their two big draws, then everyone is tradable.

Last season, the Bobcats took on long term contracts (Diaw, Diop and Vlad) in an effort to assemble the pieces to fit Larry Brown’s philosophy. While that remake had its limits, the Bobcats improved and became relevant. Trading Okafor is a direct departure from that strategy, and we can expect further moves to be made primarily to reduce costs. Wallace or Diaw could probably be had for expiring contracts. Maybe Augustin becomes a sweetener to get someone to take Diop or Nazr off our hands. What’s left will be a subpar slop of overpaid mediocrity.

As the talent leaks out of Charlotte, other dominoes will fall. With the Bobcats no longer following the Brown plan, Brown won’t stick around long either. He’ll be replaced by a much cheaper coach along the lines of a Sam Vincent. Fans will abandon the team beyond anything seen to date, and the financial losses will only continue to grow.

After about three years, the destruction will be complete, and the Bobcats will be back where they began as an expansion team. Led by the latest lottery picks, the team will finally have cap space, but as a perenial loser, it will be a last resort for free agents who can’t find a deal anywhere else. The Bobcats will be transformed from an up and coming playoff contender into Sacramento or Memphis in three short years.

Bob Johnson is spitting in the collective face of Bobcats fans and the city of Charlotte. He should now be considered among the ranks of the worst owners in the NBA. He’s bungled almost every major decision made regarding the Bobcats since the team’s inception, and now he’s cutting his losses any way he can. He’s also likely cutting off his own nose to spite his face because the Bobcats will not become proffitable without fans and TV revenue. I suppose there have to be losers in any free market, but it’s not fun to become one because of one rich fool’s ineptitude. Hopefully, Johnson sells the team at a steep loss sooner rather than later so that new, competent management can take over.

by ClipCat on Jul 27, 2009 11:26 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Its hard to swallow... but you're right.

Bravo Bob Johnson… you had two marketable players and you’re getting ready to lose one of them.

By the way, for all you people calling Emeka ‘chokafor’,,,,

There are only 3 players in the NBA who have averaged a double-double the last five season, care to guess who they are?
- Tim Duncan
- Dwight Howard
- Emeka Okafor

How many times has Chandler does this in his career? once.

So, ‘chokafor’ on that… you dont know what you’ve got ’till its gone.

by James The Aussie on Jul 27, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Chandler has such an INSTINCTIVE feel for the game!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes.

You’ll note that a fact was stated that was true about all three of them. Can you refute that fact?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1 million

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Quite frankly, player marketing doesn’t mean sh*t if you can’t win. Winning is the best marketing, and we haven’t won anything with Okafor or Wallace in here. A shakeup was due.

Neither one has made an all star game, so from that standpoint, how do you figure that they are the most “marketable.” I’m tired of this getting players who are marketable stuff, that’s the same reason Morrison, May, and Felton were drafted, the latter two on the thought that they could get fans in because they went to school here in NC.

Screw that, just build a team who wins. I don’t care if they go grab 10 guys out of the D-League, as long as they win games, I could care less who they are.

Why'd the Mets, of all teams, have to draft John Maine!?!?

by Ninerballin on Jul 27, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wrong.

Morrison was drafted because this team desperately needed a scoring threat. The Bobcats weren’t the only people to be wrong about that.

And yes, we’d love to win. But having Chandler, who’s an inferior basketball player to Okafor in almost every way, doesn’t get us any closer to doing that on a regular basis. It takes us farther away.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 27, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

AGREED.

You fill seats by putting a good product on the court. Wanted Brandon Roy over Morrison then, and still wish we had him today. But Morrison did show a lot of passion by crying on the court in college. Good call MJ.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

and by Agreed, I meant agree with Ninerballing. Disagree with Procton.

So because you desperately need a scoring threat, you select a slow white guy who can’t play defense?

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

And you can't refute that all that 'crying on the court' resulted in ticket sales...

Morrison caused buzz in Charlotte leading up to that season as he was a quantifiable commodity. Granted, the experiment didn’t work but I recall Jay Bilas, Dicky V and the rest of the draft analysis crew gushing over what a great pick Morrison was. He was a guy who had all the tools offensively, but not a strong enough character to deal with the pressure.

Anyone can say ‘you fill seats by winning’ that is an obvious statement. Do you think we’ll win more games with Chandler than Okafor? I sure don’t. I do think the Bobcats will lose more fans with this move, marketability is a major factor in the NBA, it’s what seperates basketball from NFL or NHL where players wear face masks, they are recognizable commodities.

Would Brandon Roy have been a better pick? Obviously. Should we have made that draft night trade and sent Felton and May to NO for Paul… no doubt, but you know what they say about hindsight.

So, in that vein, lets stop playing armchair GM after the fact, lets stop waiting until after a deal is made to say ‘Hmmm I told you so…. MJ sucks’, I for one am ready to say right here, right now we are getting ready to make the biggest mistake the franchise has made since its inception. Bigger than Morrison, bigger than not getting Paul.

The only thing I hope for now is that the trade gets voided by the team doctors (as it happened with OKC) otherwise when we’re getting ready to cut Chandler to save those $$ Okafor will be getting ready to become the perenial defensive All-Star C in the West when players like Duncan retire.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Dicky V gushes over a lot of bad draft picks

He also loved Sean May. Morrison was a terrible pick that many many people saw coming.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who were the many people?

And I’m not talking about armchair GMs who can have hindsight as their co-pilot.

All I heard from all analysts was that this was a great offensive move and though Morrison couldn’t play D, he would give the Cats the spark they need on the offensive end.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

See below

(\/)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Many people also thought he was bound to be an All-Star

draftexpress:

College basketball hasn’t seen a player with Adam Morrison’s natural feel for the game in a very long time. Obviously Morrison knows how to score the basketball, but his instincts make him much, much more than just that. Mentally, he is just a step ahead of everybody else on the floor.

That will to win is just one more thing that sets Morrison apart, and adds to his national appeal. While he sometimes takes his scrappy, fiery demeanor a bit too far, Morrison is always the most competitive player on the court. He will do anything to win, and his emotional on-court displays electrify both his team and the crowd. Not only is he uniquely talented, but his intensity and flair make him the type of unique personality that will always draw people in.

Adam Morrison is undoubtedly a top 5 pick, and could go as high as number one depending on which team is selecting there. Morrison isn’t a lock to be a star, but will be a very successful NBA player in the right system. There is little up in the air when it comes to Morrison’s skill level and feel for the game.

Best Case: Shorter Dirk Nowitzki
Worst Case: Post-prime Glenn Robinson

Past his prime, Robinson was, at worst, a 15-5 player.

nbadraft.net:

NBA Comparison: Larry Bird

When was Bird “terrible?”

NBA.com:

Natural scorer with the complete offensive repertoire. Perpetual motion on offense, finding and exploiting seams in the defense. Can create for himself and others. A true competitor who doesn’t back down and lifts his teammates.

I don’t see anything in there that reads “terrible.”

ESPN.com:

Similarities: Larry Bird or Wally Szczerbiak?

Even Szczerbiak has proven to be a consistent scorer when healthy and given the opportunity.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

Are you really defending the drafting of Adam Morrison? I suppose you thought drafting JJ Reddick was a good pick too. And Sean May.

Headlining the Campaign for the return of Ryan Langerhans! MVP 2011!

by RichmondBraves on Jul 28, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I'll certainly defend it.

Unfortunately, you don’t get to go back and redraft three years later. But, before the draft, this is what I thought about all those players.

Morrison: consistent starter, 15-18 PPG scorer with a versatile offensive game, little in the way of rebounding or playmaking, weak (but not abysma)l defense
Redick: consistent rotation player (not a bad pick for 15-25, but probably not a lotto guy) who would be a deadeye shooter in a system that got him open looks and could score double figures. Slightly functional as a playmaker, nonexistent as a rebounder), slightly below-average defender
May: Fatass who would never be healthy and was undersized for the game he played. I didn’t see him being able to rebound or score in the post against NBA bigs, and I was pretty sure he’d struggle to keep his conditioning at a high enough level for the NBA game. I will note that those very rare times he did play, he did show me a better perimeter game than I imagined he’d have.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd love to watch 10 guys out of the D-League who can win, too

But that only happens in Summer League, and even then it surprised me. It takes talent, chemistry and leadership to win, and Okafor and Wallace both had that. They were marketable because they were the two most athletic, most productive players on the team. They played hard, stayed out of trouble and kept a good image in the community. On a playoff team, both could be all star reserves, but on losing teams they had no chance.

The Bobcats finally began to assemble enough talent (coaching and complementary players) around them last season to begin to win, and IMO they were a player or two away from making the playoffs. Losing Okafor pushes them several steps backwards.

by ClipCat on Jul 28, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Both players are overpaid

Wow, Procton. You’re all over the place, but I admire your commitment.

I prefer Okafor over Chandler, but I hate both players’ contracts. The fact that Chandler’s contract ends sooner is a bonus, though that’s the only bonus. Let’s be honest, both of these players are overpaid. $12-$14 million is the type of money you pay for someone like Al Jefferson. I like Okafor as much as anyone and was happy when the Cats drafted him. But do you see any team Okafor playing the 4-5 going to a conference final? Unless they suddenly acquire a league top 10 talent, no way it they even get close. His offense is limited to put backs and drop off passes for dunks.

You can thank the Bulls and Ben Wallace for the recent trend over overpaid PF-C.

by Swollenstein on Jul 27, 2009 11:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Funny that you mention Al Jefferson

I don’t recall seeing him in the playoffs. Al Jefferson and Okafor are very comparable players IMO. Both are excellent rebounders. Okafor is the far superior defensive player, while Jefferson is the better scorer. Both are in the second tier of NBA big men just behind the perrenial all stars.

Does that make them overpaid? Compared to school teachers, of course they’re overpaid, but they’re paid comparably to other NBA PF/C’s. Surrounded by the right talent, Okafor could certainly win an NBA championship with the Cavs, Celtics, Spurs or even the Lakers (may that never happen). Most importantly, he’s productive and self-motivated. He’s not a go-to scorer, but he’s the perfect complement next to one. It’s too bad the Bobcats wasted so much money on stiffs like Nazr and Diop rather than on an offensive minded PF.

by ClipCat on Jul 28, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

The offensive minded PF has been all too elusive.

I like Okafor and am sad to see him go, but he’s ideally a fourth option on offense if you’re talking championship caliber team.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then again...

That’s a statement rooted totally in speculation given he’s never even had a good enough team around him to see the playoffs.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Al Jefferson hasn't reached his ceiling yet...

I’d say that Okafor and Chandler both are near the ceiling if not there already.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why do you think Jefferson hasn't?

He is who he is at this point; a good enough player to put up All-Star stats on a terrible team (even worse than ours.)

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okafor has had plenty of touches

He’s had opportunities to be a big time scorer, but that’s just not who he is. I would say it’s an informed opinion. Yes we all speculate Procton. You can point it out for others, but you do it too. It’s all any of us can do. Thanks again for saying something irrelevant.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is it any less relevant than your opinion-as-fact above?

You say he’s a fourth option on a championship-caliber team. How the fuck do you know? In December of last year, he averaged 17.8 PPG in 16 games (that was also the month he got the most minutes last year, but I digress.) In April ‘08, he averaged 18.4. In November ’06, he averaged 16.9 PPG. But hey, you’ll have your chance to “miss” him when he’s going for 18-11 while providing great defense as a Western Conference All-Star on a playoff team while Chandler’s putting up 6-10 for a 30-win team.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Calm it down Procton

If the best you can do is bring up months when he’s averaged more than his typical 13/14 points then you’re not making a great case for him.

I never said I wasn’t stating opinions. Let your lunatic rants continue.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bill Russell averaged 15 points for his career. Just saying.

Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute

by mjschaefer on Jul 28, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It sure is incredible what can happen to a quality big man when he actually sees some touches.

Last I checked, a post player can’t pass it to himself.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not quite.

What I will be is steaming out the ears when Okafor is scoring 16-18 a game with a competent PG to get him the ball.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okafor would have started for:

Cleveland (easily, PF or C)
Denver (PF or C)
Orlando (at PF)
possibly LA (over Odom, or, with everybody at full strength, ahead of Bynum)

And if Okafor is overpaid, so is every decent veteran big man worth a damn in the entire league. There is virtually no post player in the NBA who’s on a vet contract and gets paid less to do more.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dear George Shinn...

we’ll trade you Okafor, Ray Felton, and Michael Jordan for Chris Paul. And we’ll even pay for one of the skyboxes in your NO arena. What do you think?

by Swollenstein on Jul 27, 2009 11:57 PM EDT reply actions  

I think I like it

I like this trade, I think. For all of his talent, and he had so much talent, Emeka never loved the game enough to keep growing. He’s essentially the same player today that he was as ROY. That was terrific then, disappointing now.

Having watched tons of Hornets ball the past 2 years, Tyson Chandler is everything Emeka has been, but better. He has terrific length, Emeka is undersized (the CHA center has to play in the same division as Dwight Howard, remember). He sets terrific screens, Emeka barely sets screens. Don’t underestimate this point, as the pick and roll is how the NBA runs, and if you don’t have a big that can set screens your offense will be stagnant. Sound familiar?

Also, Tyson is elite defensively, where Emeka is very good. They may be very similar in terms of defensive skills (I think Tyson has more smarts having had to guard Tim Duncan and Yao in division the past few years), but Tyson’s length and hops put him into the elite defender territory, which Emeka, for all his talent, couldn’t quite break into. I have to disagree with you on this point.

by DemonDeaconHead on Jul 28, 2009 12:07 AM EDT reply actions  

He's the same player?

Wow. FG% would suggest otherwise, as would rebounding percentages.

And the notion that Chandler is in any way a better defender than Okafor is crazy. Point out one stat that suggests it.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Except for last season...

Their stats, especially FG% and Rebounding are pretty comparable. What makes it such a bad deal on the surface is Chandler’s toe and ankle injuries, which are a red flag right now.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right...

Except Okafor scores 50% more in time-adjusted stats.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

No he doesn't

I looked at per 36 minute stats and advanced stats on basketball reference last year.

Other than Chandler’s awful season last year, Okafor only scored a couple points more and that’s because he generally had more touches. Chandler actually shoots a better %.

Why do you always get your facts wrong?

If Chandler is hurt, yes there’s no reason to have him on the team, but stop making up stupid shit about his statistical inferiority. It’s just not there.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Instead of just talking about the facts... let's post them.

From basketballreference.com averages of last 5 seasons per 36 minutes.

Emeka Okafor: 14.7 ppg, 11.2rpg, .604%
Tyson Chandler: 9.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 0.575%

So, it’s not a couple of points more its 5!
And no, Chandler doesn’t shoot a better percentage.

Who’s making up ‘stupid shit about statistics’ now?

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

This.

Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute

by mjschaefer on Jul 28, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm confused by something James

With all humility here, I’m not trying to talk shit, but how does Okafor shot .604% from the field per 36 minutes in the last 5 seasons? He’s never averages .600 for an entire season if you look at per game or per 36 minute stats. Even his TS% and eFG% is less than .600.

I just honestly don’t see that number. Were did you get it? I’m looking at basketballreference.com too

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

and1roid

This is my error… I was looking at his FT% for Okafor… not his shot % whic h is 0.497%

The ppg and rpg are accurate, didn’t meen to post innacurate information.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

Chandler scores 14 points/48. Okafor scores 19.9. That is 42% (or almost 50%) more scoring.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Per 36 minutes on basketball reference

Career averages in points and FG%

Chandler, 10.5 at .556% averaging 7.2 shots per game

Okafor, 14.9 at .505% averaging 11.9 shots per game

Am I making these numbers up? Okafor scores 4.5 points more per game on about 5 shots more per game.

These are the facts that I’ve read my friends. Want to refute them?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoem01.html

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

finally...

someone with some common sense on this board

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okafor scores more because he takes more shots

Chandler has the better FG%, though not by a great amount.

You guys are really stretching to hate Chandler. The issue is his toe, it’s not his stats. It’s the toe that we need to worry about.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK...let's try division, buddy.

14.9/10.5=1.419, or 41% more scoring, as I noted above.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you're ignoring the fact that he takes more shots

11.9/7.2= 1.6527, or 65% more shots right?

Ok you’re right that Okafor scores 41% more points (significantly less than the 50 that you stated), but what’s the relevance of that when he takes more shots?

You argued forever that due to Okafor’s shooting % he should get more shots. Well by that logic, due to Chandler’s FG% he should get even more shots than Okafor. I don’t believe that.

The point that I’m making is an indiscriminate look at tone stat doesn’t mean much. Give Chandler more touches and, at the rate that he scores, he’ll have just as many points as Okafor.

Why are we still arguing over shooting %??

The problem with Chandler is his TOE!!

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you're making a legitimate argument that Chandler is a better offensive player than Okafor...

There’s no point in your even watching basketball. Chandler literally has no offensive game. Okafor does. I argue that Okafor should have gotten shots in favor of Felton. Sadly, we’ll never see that happen, and Ray Ray might just jack up 20 a game to make up for an even more deficient offensive player.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're lossing it Procton

All I am saying is that Okafor and Chandler have comparable offensive statistics. You cannot refute with any semblance of a sensible argument that Okafor scores more points because he takes more shots. That’s what the numbers show.

I, however, am not trying to argue that Chandler has a better offensive game. All I’m saying is that bringing up random stats, over-stating those stats, and half-assing your entire argument doesn’t make Okafor a better play. He is what he is.

You don’t need to argue with me. Call up Bob Johnson if you’re sad about seeing Okafor go.

And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, make sure you read what I write in the future so you’re not putting words in my mouth or making up some random debate out of thin air.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand you love of Okafor.....

…and your hate for Felton.

You dislike Felton — not because his numbers are BAD (his numbers are actually pretty good) — but because he hasn’t improved since his rookie season.
However, the exact same argument could be made about Okafor. Okafor puts up good (not great stats), but has not shown any improvement in 5 seasons. You piss and moan about wanting to trade Felton, but are ready to Jump off the BOA building because the Cats are dealing Okafor.

I will miss Okafor too, but if Chandler’s health is not an issue then the trade is not that bad. it’s not like we’re doing something completely stupid like getting rid of Felton and replacing him with Jamaal Tinsley or something!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okafor HAS shown improvement!

His FG% was 11 points higher last year than as a rookie. And it’s not all about numbers, buddy. Felton continues to be limited by his terrible decision-making and shot selection. He’s the same player he was when he got in the league. Okafor has become a vastly more efficient offensive player, and whether that’s from limiting his bad shots or becoming a better scorer around the basket, that’s a very valuable improvement, to the point that he’s gone from a liability as a shot-taker to one of the league leaders.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Improvement in only one category...

You can’t just pick one category and say he’s a much better player. Look at the rest of the stats and you’ll see that Okafor has stayed pretty flat or even gotten worse in all categories except field goal percentage. Why was his field goal percentage higher? Because Larry Brown knows Okafor is a severely limited offensive player, so his shots per game decreased drastically. Rebounds, assists, steals, blocks and points have all steadily decreased over the last three years. He may be more efficient offensively, but not because he’s improved as a player, but because there’s fewer plays run for him and he takes fewwr shots.

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

That doesn't make any sense...

First, you neglect to note that, unlike a player like Felton, his minutes have gone nowhere but down since he came into the league. If the coach won’t put you on the court, it’s hard to make your numbers go up. Further, there is no direct correlation between improved offensive efficiency and having fewer plays run for you. DeSagana Diop has taken barely two shots a game over his career, yet his FG% is only .433.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

So then you adjust to stats per 36 minutes

And his stats have still not improved since he came into the league. Your whole point was that he has shown improvement but he has not. There may not be a correlation with most players concerning shot attempts and fg% but there definitely is with Okafor. Compared to the previous few years, not as many plays this year were run either for or through Okafor? Now, pretty much all the points he gets are on putbacks or wide open dunks, shots with a much higher percentage and success rate. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that its easier to dunk a putback than it is to hit a twelve foot jump shot with a seven foot center in your face. I’m not arguing that Chandler is better or Okafor is better, only the fact that Okafor has shown little to no imrpovement after being in the league for five years.

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd actually like to give this team a full season together

Procton is right, Okafor has become more efficient. But while Ray-Ray’s numbers haven’t been pretty, they really didn’t have anyone second half of last season who could handle the offensive load on a daily basis. I want to see what this roster can do with a full season together, maybe adding one or two more minor pieces along the way. If they’re still a sub 45-win team by end of next season, then blow it up.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Procton will always contradict himself

Read the Tinsley argument he made a while back.

Never expect Procton to have an honest or well reasoned opinion of Felton. Okafor could go 0-20 and foul out in the 3rd quarter and Procton would still spin it to being Felton’s fault.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, because if you desire your PG not to take the most shots on the team at a terrible percentage...

You’re far from reasonable.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well you're talking around the argument Procton

You contradict yourself.

You can criticize Felton for the volume of shots that he takes sure, but that’s not what anyone is talking. We’re talking about the hypocrisy that you exhibit over Felton time and time again.

Go back to your statements on Tinsley. You can’t spin your way out of that one.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

guys guys GUYS!!

My god, all this bickering over what amounts to a trifle! In the words of the immortal Rodney F. King, can’t we all just get along?

Neither of them are starters on a contending NBA team. As Okafor has been reasonably healthy recently, I suppose I’d prefer to keep him. But so what? (Unfortunately, I suspect clipcat’s observation regarding a fire sale may be correct, but the question then becomes what is Larry Brown’s mission here and was he sold a bill of goods or did he buy in for a final long-term project before he kicks?) Yes, we may all be doomed to NBA purgatory but personally I’d prefer to head down that road WITHOUT Tyson F. Chandler if I had the choice…

by bugjackblue on Jul 28, 2009 12:51 AM EDT reply actions  

"So what?"

Strangely enough, fans tend to care about winning. This trade in no way helps accomplish that goal.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

These guys would start on any NBA team...

Okafor and Chandler both would start on any NBA team, but they’re the 4th scoring option on 75% of the teams in the league.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

For all the talk that Okafor is undersized and Chandler isn't

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&sort=

Okafor has a bigger wingspan (7’4 for Emeka, 7’3 for Tyson), standing reach (9’2.5 for Emeka, 9’2 for Tyson), a higher max vertical reach (12’0.5 for Emeka, 11’11.5 for Tyson), and is stronger than Chandler. Agility wise their similar but Okafor also runs the floor better and also has a semblance of an offensive game.

Tyson is taller and a legit 7’0 footer in shoes, but Okafor is by far the better player and measures out better. I can’t see how anyone thinks this is a good move.

Hello.

by killa3312 on Jul 28, 2009 2:12 AM EDT reply actions  

To be fair

Those are pre draft numbers. Chandler was drafted out of highschool, Okafor was a junior in college. Players body’s tend to grow as does their strength and athleticism between the years 18-21.

I’m not saying you can’t make a case for Okafor being the better player. Sure you can, but those predraft numbers mean little to the players they are today.

As I said before, both players being healthy, Okafor only has slightly better statistical averages. The true problem with this trade is Chandler’s big toe. If it is bad as we have reason to believe it is, then this is a pure salary dump.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

And the fact that we'll be paying Chandler more.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because Chandler is so athletic and instinctive...

He’s gonna be blocking four shots a game with his head, soccer style.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not over yet

The Yahoo headline includes that the deal isn’t final and may include more players…
We freeing up cash to sign Felton long term(I hope not) or are we looking at a PF (Davis)?

Tuesday is when the ‘Cats make their moves. We’ll see what this afternoon looks like.

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 7:49 AM EDT reply actions  

All I can hope is that it includes someone like Julian Wright, or...

the truth is that the Hornets are in deep, deep, deep cap trouble especially if it drops next year as expected. They don’t have a high enough profit margin to warrant going into luxury territory and are not close enough to contending with L.A, San Antonio, Denver or Dallas to make it worthywhile.

Honestly, if they hope to have a contending team at all 5 positions that need to move a player… could it possibly be CP3?

Here me out here, is he the best PG in the league, possibly, but the Hornets clearly value David West alot and if they think there’s a possibility of building a contending team centered on Okafor, West and Julian Wright maybe they’ll make the move.

Would people be satiated if the deal was:
Charlotte sends: Emeka Okafor, Raja Bell, Raymond Felton(sign and trade), Nazr or Diop (27 mil total)
New Orleans sends: Chris Paul, Tyson Chandler (24 mil)

NO get a PG back, an expiring contract and Okafor. No doubt their fans would be upset but this is a smart basketball move for both team’s futures. I know it seems ridiculous to think the Hornets would send their best player, but their current makeup isn’t going to push them into the top of the West and hasn’t for the last 4 seasons. Furthermore, Nazr or Diop give them cap relief when Chandler was scheduled to come off the books anyway, and with Paul not being there it could give them the ability to go and sign a big time FA who they could most likely lure.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

andrewlail76

Just read that Yahoo! article… it says the deal is UNLIKELY to include any other players, I didn’t see one mention of the deal possibly including more players. Do you have a link?

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

My bad...

But it is the NBA…so who knows…

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

My apologies

The article states that there probably won’t be other players involved…
I had to read it again…on nba.com

But who knows what may happen.

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well that's good news

Because the deal as is, simply isn’t all that great. I hope there’s some other benefit to the Cats here.

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whatever.

Okafor is terrible. We won’t miss him with Chandler’s athleticism and instinctual play.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

5 years is long enough to let him blossom. Thank goodness we get to unload the long contract.

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I believed you were being sarcastic too.

When will Chandler blossom, exactly? He’s been in the league for seven years.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm saying a hail mary...

and hoping that Chris Paul is somehow wearing Bobcats construction orange next year…

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 9:15 AM EDT reply actions  

That would be nice...

That can Be George Shin’s Gift back to Charlotte…

Add another ACC player not from Carolina to the roster.

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I couldnt disagree more with this article. Chokafor an elite defender? Where you watching the Orlando game? How about the Rockets game? Maybe the Laker game? Even the Cleveland games Chokafor got dominated by larger centers BECAUSE HE PLAYS OUT OF POSITION!!! HE CANT PLAY THE FOUR HERE BECAUSE HE HAS NO ATHLETIC ABILITY TO GUARD THE FOURS OF THE NBA AND THE CATS WERE NOT GOING ANYWHERE WITH HIM ESPECIALLY BEING OVERPAYED FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS!!!!!If the Chandler thing doesnt work, fine, you trade him in a few years for his EXPIRING contract and move on. I would much rather have a guy who’s intimidating, plays at his natural position, and shows some kind of emotion for playing than some robotic, archiac, emotionless, overpayed, out of position stiff.

by D.W.G. on Jul 28, 2009 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Intimidating?

Which part, exactly, is intimidating about 8 PPG?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

It all hinges on whos decision this was

If this was a Larry Brown decision then I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If it is a Bob Johnson clear some money then they are making the wrong decision. You have to win to make money! In Brown We Trust. I hate to see Okafor leave and I really hope there are more players involved because I dont think Chandler for Okafor is a good trade straight up. I hated when Richardson left but that worked out and everyone knows that Brown was not happy with Okafor at the end of last seaon maybe this is why is he leaving.

www.twitter.com/jmiller112

by jmiller112 on Jul 28, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions  

worst group of fans ever.

Wow. You guys are horrible. You sit here and rip the team that represents you city. It may not be the team that you want but it’s the one you got. I’m from NC and Live in DC. I love everything about the bobcats. I don’t believe that they are the greatest team in NBA history but I do cheer for them every chance I get to see a game. You guys Bitch Piss and moan all day about how the bobcats suck, MJ sucks LB sucks, Felton sucks, Bob Johnson Sucks… (No complaint on that last one) but guess what Bobcat fans…YOU SUCK!!!!! You’re like a middle aged woman who got dumped in high school for a prettier girl and now you hate all men. Like it’s the bobcats’ organizations fault. You would’ve hated any team that came to NC and didn’t immediately go to the finals. And if that would have happened you would bail on them cuz they didn’t win. Maybe (try and stay with me now) we should support our team regardless what they do because we can’t do anything to change it. BOBCATS PLAYOFFS 2010!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I’m happy with the small things)

by Ball Above All on Jul 28, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions  

nah

im not here to for vocab lessons. Just wanna support my team

by Ball Above All on Jul 28, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

thing about adults

they tend to know everything or they try to. If supporting you team like an adult means ripping on them every chance you get and basically doing everthing that is the opposite of “suppot” then this child will support his team with a beer in one hand and a bottle in the other. BOBCATS ARE F’ING AWSOME!!!!!

by Ball Above All on Jul 28, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would suggest you read more of this site,

because the VAST, VAST majority don’t rip everything about this team… however, I am entitled to have my opinion on this trade, which this topic is on.

I think this trade is horrible.

I support Brown as a coach however, but I don’t think this was his call. It reeks of a Bob Johnson cost cutting measure. Even Rod Higgin’s statement seems forced.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tyson Chandler is tall!

!!!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, you got that one.

If all you’d ever like to do is support any move they make without any consideration as to whether it’s actually, you know, a good move, then, yeah, you’re behaving about like a five-year-old.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

You hit the nail on the head.

The fact that the organization has been run terribly since it got into town IS their fault. Johnson’s idiotic planning got the team’s games broadcast to, what, 20% of the region’s homes for most of the first five years? Putting Jordan in charge given his epic failure in any executive basketball capacity was another blunder, and we’ve paid for it with moves like Sam Vincent as coach, Nazr Mohammed as the $7 million pariah, and Walter Herrmann, Matt Carroll, and Adam Morrison (not to mention Okafor now) all shipped out of town for inferior talent.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed. Good fans call out a poorly run organization when necessary.

Otherwise, you find yourself in a Clippers-like situation.

This franchise has had more low points than high points so far. We all want the Bobcats to be a competitive team and contend in the playoffs. 5 years have gone by now, and frankly they’re no closer today than they were 4 seasons ago. For every one good move they make (Boris Diaw), there seem to be at least 3 bad moves (Okafor, Nazr, VladRad, etc etc etc).

Obviously, Ball Above All is currently in the employ of Bob Johnson and friends. You’ve really set yourself apart when we all suddenly find ourselves on the same side of the fence as Procton.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like Vladimir Radmanovic.

If they don’t pursue a PF FA this off season it is probably because LB likes RadMan as the back up 4.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the "Clippers- like situatation"...

..could just as easily be a product of an ungrateful, impatient, and unsatisfiable fan base.

No, the Cats haven’t made the playoffs, much less contended for any division or conference titles. But you can get a ticket for dirt cheap (compared to anything even a movie) ! And it’s fun to go support the squad! And building ANYTHING from the ground up is slow and takes time to reap the rewards. Try starting and running your own business.

The Bobcats’ FO has made obvious blunders. But what FO doesn’t? The Lakers? Spurs maybe?

I do question the value of the Okafor/Chandler trade for the Cats (as well as many other moves — less more recently than before though). But the constant negative attitude by fans like Procto gets old quick. Doesn’t it? Lets all chill out, wait for the details of this trade and other moves that will ultimately shape next year’s roster. And let our big name, championship winning coach try to make the Bobcats better!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The details are in, chief...

We gave up a career double-double player for a guy whose key attributes are his height, athleticism, and instinctual play (to say nothing of his non-existent offensive arsenal.) This organization doesn’t make being negative hard.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Bobcats just sent me an email with this link

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/player_profile_tyson_chandler.html

“The second overall pick in the 2001 NBA Draft, Chandler has played in 537 games for Chicago and New Orleans over his eight NBA seasons. Chandler holds career averages of 8.2 points, 9.0 rebounds and 1.4 blocks in 28.0 minutes, while shooting .554 from the field (1671-3014).”

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's your point?

He’s a decent rebounder, he’s a terrible scorer, and he’s an adequate defender.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

No point at all

just passing it along if you hadn’t seen it

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Worth a read...

KD at BDL on yahoo has a good post on this pending trade, though it sounds like Procton wrote it (jokes). Since the Observer doesn’t want to cover the biggest Bobcats story of the year…

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Emeka-Okafor-for-Tyson-Chandler-?urn=nba,179236

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nvekmn

Hooray. PER says we lose six wins from this trade! But that can’t be right, because Chandler is the same player as Okafor when they’re both healthy…right?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions  

what an idiot!

Glad to know the season has already been decided by Hollinger… Are you stupid?

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Apparently.

Being smart would be to predict 50 wins and, say, a Conference Finals appearance?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Making my point

No, but to form an opinion based on per is idiotic! This is the same guy who said the Diaw trade was a terrible trade for the Bobcats.

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh...your point was...

that somebody who’s wrong once is never right again. Got it.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

PER is a joke

All of Hollinger’s stats are a waste of time. Look at how the all important PER rates Shane Battier. I HATE HATE HATE Shane Battier, but I’m not so completely blinded my own opinion (Procton) that I don’t realize how valuable someone like Shane Battier is.

Procton, how are you able to sustain a life of endless blog commenting? I saw your name in C-Chandler’s Panther blog this morning. I’ve got to hand it to you buddy, you have no peers in the blog commenting department.

by Swollenstein on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

They're certainly not a waste of time.

They’re a tool to be added to an arsenal of evaluation.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 29, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since the trade is official now... best of luck to Okafor in NO.

By all accounts and from what my friends that still live in Charlotte have said, Okafor was a stand up guy the entire time he was in Charlotte. I never heard him complain about the fact that he played for a crappy franchise that changed direction almost every single season he was around. As far as I remember, Okafor played his ass off every night, not to mention that he played in every game for the last 2 seasons. All the best Mek… hope you and CP3 can do something out in the West this year.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions  

With Okafor on board...

They’re one of the best 4 teams in the West. He’ll certainly provide more in the playoffs than Chandler’s 4-5. He also probably could have helped contain Nene and K-Mart to a FG% lower than .532 combined.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chandler's game

You guys get a center who can not create his own shot. Has no game facing the basket. Has no game with his back to the basket. The only points he get is put backs off rebounds, and the lob pass. Granted he is a above average rebounder, but for someone who is 7’1", he isn’t that great a defender. The Hornet’s problem is the don’t have anyone besides Paul and West who can create their own shot. Okafor isn’t going to put the Hornets in the upper echelon of the Western Conference, but, in my opinion, he gives us a better option to win.

by Hornetsfann on Jul 28, 2009 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Your opinion is correct.

This is strictly a salary cap move. Surprisingly, the salary cap move is being made by Charlotte.

Okafor is a good player, he’ll never be great, but you’ll enjoy watching him on a nightly basis.

While you’re here, just want to let you know that I’d give my right arm, Ray Felton, and Adam Morrison’s moustache for CP3. Easily my favorite player to watch in the L now, slightly ahead of D-Rose.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Congratulations Procto!

Something we ALL can agree on! CP3 is da shit!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm amazed...

that there’s a Bobcats post and over 200 comments already…I guess there are some people around the Queen City (Salisbury here) that are passionate about the ’Cats

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Are these the same professionals...

…that were doing the scouting on Adam Morrisson? haha

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or are they the ones...

 who knew Okafor would be a consistent double-double player for his entire career?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously though

IF healthy, Chandler is basically the same type of player as Okafor, And his shorter contract is the only obvious benefit. Maybe a few more alley oops.

For the Bobcats sake let’s hope he is healthy!

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

The same type, sure...

But Chandler is inferior in every way. Should we trade Gerald Wallace for Luol Deng? Ray Felton for Steve Blake? I mean, they’re the same type of player.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm as skeptical of this trade as most on here...

…but what’s done is done. And it’s not like Chandler is a total stiff. He can play and was just peaking before his injury last season. Hopefully, at 27 he’s still got a few more years where he can put up (near) double doubles and be a defensive presence.

Isn’t Steve Blake several years older than Felton? And Wallace older than Deng? I wouldn’t advocate either trade scenario for the Bobcats regardless. But if it happened I’d still cheer for the Cats. Let’s imagine just a moment if all three trades went down:

pg — Augustin / Blake / Jefferson
sg — Bell/ Henderson / Jefferson
sf — Deng / Brown / Radman
pf — Diaw / Radman / Ajinca
c — Chandler / Diop

help me out on the salaries Procto. how much money do we save? Who could we go after?

No thanks. I’ll keep RayRay, G -W and Okafor.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

We wouldn't save much money

Deng makes more money than Wallace. Just ignore Procton’s hypothetical trades/swaps.

The hypothetical roster you just put forward made me throw up in my mouth.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It ends up coming out in the wash...

Felton would likely make $6 mil with an extension, $5.5 with a qualifying offer.
Wallace is making $9 mill next season

Deng is making $10mil next season
Blake is making $4.9 mil next season

And, what’s done is not done…. Chandler still has to pass the physical fingers crossed

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mean...

He is a better shooter and distributor than Felton, and he wants $8 mil a year.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it's done.

They wouldn’t have announced the trade without the physical.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't that happen the first time though with OKC?

Scott Fowler mentioned in his article that the deal was still pending the physical.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, there was never a press conference.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh well...

there go my hopes and dreams.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's ridiculous.

Why would they make the announcement with the possibility the trade won’t even go through. Who the fuck is running this team?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because they

‘fully expect he’ll be healthy’…. duh

In all honesty when that conference call said Chandler would come here then start rehabbing that sent up red flags. What Dr. is going to okay a trade with a player who needs to rehabilitate from surgery?

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ridiculous.

I hope his leg falls off while Emeka becomes an All-Star.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not going to go that far...

I’m not going to direct my ire at Chandler… I’m mad at the front office for this montrosity.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

The guys concludes that the trade is even, far from ripping it.

You don’t even read what professionals write, I guess I shouldn’t be so offended when you’re oblivious to what I’m saying as well

by and1droid on Jul 28, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

John Hollinger:
Usually when a trade happens, I’ll write something like, “On the surface, it makes no sense,” and then proceed to walk you through all the cap ramifications to show why a seemingly lopsided deal actually makes some sense.

This isn’t one of those.

If I cared, I’d hope and pray this meant Johnson is about to be on the way out of town.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

it would certainly make much more sense

if Chandler were in the last year of his contract.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why?

Will we be able to sign somebody on the market who will match or better Okafor’s impact for a lower or equal cost? I certainly doubt it.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not going to use too much hyperbole and say "I'm done with the Bobcats"

That being said, my relationship with my NBA team is strained, and I feel like they’re going to havbe to win me back. I wish I could be blissfully ignorant like 95% of the posters on the Observer’s website and think this means A.I is coming to Charlotte…. HOORAY!

But I honestly feel like this move was kow-towing to Bob Johnson who now, may be, the worst owner of any professional sports franchise since the notion existed. He has made zero good moves since he took over and his reverse midas touch continues.

I’m continuing with my original line, I’m hoping this is part of some bigger deal… let’s see… what about Felton and Chandler to Minnesota for Al Jefferson… seems like their GM loves collecting PG’s.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

it would have to be Jeffeson AND....

…one of those PG youngsters they just drafted too and then we’re talking! But i doubt it. wishful thinking.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they let Felton walk too now. Then again, it wouldn’t surprise me if they were clearing money to sign Felton to a big $$, long term deal either.

by dudemanhey on Jul 28, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're probably right...

About 1 or the other…
Stuck with Felton or stuck with AI

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm With Yah

Not done yet, but sure am close to leaving. Became a Cats fan because of Okafor, love the team, but have no ties with the city other than my uncle owning a qym on the other side of the state.

I’m still a cats fan as of today, but i’m looking at my other options(mainly NJ,NY,WAS), as should you. I thought we had a 5 year playoff plan since we started in 04.We were suppose to build through the draftr and make our team like the OKC of today. Just think, Paul, Roy, Wallace, Okafor, Lopez, thats what it should have been, but it aint. After 5 years of disappointment, I dont want to take this much longer

by Civardi on Jul 28, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand you're frustrated... so am I

but I don’t believe in playing that ‘coulda, woulda’ shoulda’ game…. if that were the case the L.A clippers could have: Devin Harris, Danny Granger, Brook Lopez, Blake Griffin and Paul Pierce

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

My love of basketball largely stems from watching Michael Jordan play during my formative years.

That being said, he is slowly making me not like the team from my home state. I have no problem with him owning the team, but only if he immediately hands over all personnel decisions to a clone of Daryl Morey.

by Swollenstein on Jul 28, 2009 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Could I get hired with the Bobcats?

I’m a Production Planner/Purchasing Agent…and a basketball fan
I think I would be qualified…as much as anyone else is…

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Skin color?

That’s an important part of the Bob Johnson way.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Get real!!!

Okafor’s gone…the end…

Chandler…new beginning…

When the budget is tight, you do what you got to do.
If Chandler works out for the good, will you all withdraw your comments and praise him.

Everyone griped about Okafor not being a true center(myself included).
He’s gone now and what can be defined as a true Center is coming in. He may not be EXACTLY what you wanted…but he’s a Center none the less.

Okafor…Is he a true Center…by size he’s a PF, but too slow(not agile enough) to guard other PFs in the league…he’s a solid player that puts up good numbers…not great…good…

Diaw…is he a true PF? He has unique skills which make him hard to defend.

Ajinca…Is he a true center? By height…yes, but he is a featherweight…but he has a great skill set that makes him hard to defend.

Focus on what is next…
Felton’s Future here or elsewhere
A I – Is he coming or not
We still have a hole at PF…

You don’t do a deal like this without other plans in the works…and you know Brown wants to shore up the team so he has a set to work with come pre-season

The trade is done. so drop it and let’s look forward.

I don’t think the ’Cats are not done dealing yet…wait and see.

by andrewlail76 on Jul 28, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

If A.I is 'the answer' in Charlotte....

The question must have been “How do you break up team unity and chemistry in 3 easy steps”

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Furthermore...

I’m king of the ‘the jury is still out’ club for Ajinca… but to say he has “a great skill set that makes him hard to defend.” is a little lofty for a raw D-leaguer.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, "other plans" are in the works

Bob Johnson’s other plans are to sell this wreck he’s created and get the fuck out of town. Oh, wait…he was never in town in the first place.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most people are missing the point

I believe that most people bashing this trade are missing a few things. First of all, I think Okafor is a better overall player than Chandler, but how can we judge this trade when the season is still months away? All the talk about Chandler being injury prone is questionable because the same could be said for Okafor and his back issues which caused him to miss numerous games in his second and third years in the league. Also, Larry Brown is getting players that fit into his system. Even though I believe Okafor is a better overall player, Chandler is light years ahead of him at defending the pick and roll and even getting opportunities from the pick and roll on the offensive end from years of doing it with CP3. Brown’s teams have been known for being good at the pick and roll and good at defending the pick and roll and a pure center, which Chandler is. You also can’t forget that Okafor’s dissension with Brown and the lack of passion displayed probably also led to this trade. Let’s just give it time and see what happens, then if all this bad things happen with Chandler and Okafor becomes the next Olajuwan, then you can say “I told you so”

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Okafor played every game the last two years; Chandler has never played every game.

Yeah, seems like they’re pretty much equally as injury prone.

I don’t need to wait and see us finish with 30 wins this year to be telling you so now.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

since you're a stat geek...

and you like to twist around numbers to your advantage, let me give it a try…

The number of games each player has averaged per year during their career:

Chandler – 67
Okafor – 66

So, saying Chandler is injury prone without ever mentioning Okafor’s back issues is just naive…do more research, It’s too easy winning these arguments against you.

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's specious reasoning...

Okafor has had 5 seasons, one of which he was injured for all but 25 games… take out each of their most injury plagued seasons and you’ll see who is the most ‘injury prone’ i.e. most often injured.

You didn’t win an argument, you attempted to net a ‘check mate’ with failed numbers.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

no...

what I attempted to do was find some numbers and twist them around to fit my argument, very similar to procton’s style…so basically, you’re saying procton’s arguments have no merit, so you proved my point.

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I disagreed with your statement solely...

I was casting no judgement on Procton’s numbers. He made a statement about the last 2 seasons which was accurate… you made a statement about their careers as a whole which was innacurate.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is my statement inaccurate?

Chandler has played 537 games in 8 seasons = 67.125 games per season
OKafor has played 330 games in 5 seasons = 66 games per season

So, how was my statement incorrect? I’m just trying to show that you can find stats to support any argument you can come up with. Let’s just let the whole thing play out. I hated the J-Rich trade when it happened but it turned out to be fantastic for the ’Cats.

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You bent the numbers to your favor, I see that was your point.

I simply pointed out that if you want to accurately measure the rate on injury it would be fair to deduct both of their most injured seasons.

This makes it:
Chandler: 71
Okafor: 76

That is a fair method of presenting statistics, I see no need to introduce unfair ones.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

I’m not really against or for this trade…my attitude towards Okafor for the last few years had just been kinda “blah” and I’m not excited or depressed about Chandler. Just trying to throw some stuff out there from the other side of the argument since I really dson’t have an opinion one way or the other.

by Stevarino on Jul 28, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

So how will Chandler's great health seven years ago benefit us?

Just checking.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Stagnant”: In the last five years, Okafor has improved in at least one significant area: offensive efficiency. Chandler has improved in, well, nothing.
“Apathetic”: Based on what, precisely? The fact that he cared about stretching? The fact that he’s not a trash talker? He suited up every night for 82 games in consecutive years. Chandler has never, repeat, never done this.
“Undersized”: He’s thicker and has just as much reach as Chandler. Again, are either of them blocking many shots with the top of their heads?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're missing the point...

the vast majority of us who abhore this trade don’t think it’s a Larry Brown move… we think it’s a Bob Johnson move based on nothing more than ensuring he has a leaner team that would be more valuable on the open market.

I for one, don’t see this as a basketball move in the slightest and judging by the aenemic, almost forced responses of Brown and Higgins I can’t help but believe they feel the same way.

I’ve always said, I’ll be the first to eat crow if Chandler even becomes a 17 and 10 guy, but I am as sure of that not happening as anything.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha...

I’ll eat crow if Chandler can score 14 a game.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Amazing

It’s amazing that you guys care so much whether or not Bob Johnson or Michael Jordan comes to games. WHO CARES?… So if Bob Johnson comes to every game all of a sudden everyone is going to buy season tickets? Your a bunch of cry babies. If you guys really think Okafor was that good I really have to question whether or not you have watched any games! I’m a season ticket holder and couldn’t be happier to get rid of that over paid bum. He has no heart or passion. Great move by the Bobcats!

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions  

If Johnson or Jordan came to games...

It would, you know, imply they actually gave a shit about a team that people pay their hard-earned money to see. I sure hope we cling tightly to Nazr Mohammed. He’s the heartiest and most passionful player around!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a repeat of what TB said

Of Okafor:

He has no heart or passion
. As though he should do a dance every time he makes a block or mean mug like Kobe after every basket. Yeah, that definitely effects how good a player is on the court.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

omg

It’s not about doing a dance it’s about the game being close in the last 5 min. and see him playing with 100% effort in order for his team to win. I have never seen that with him.

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh...

So he was napping, then? Daydreaming? Where was Chandler’s heart and passion to not get dominated in the playoffs? Hell, where was Chandler’s heart and passion to get him on the court period?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bobcats fan

I pull for the team/players not the front office.

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions  

The front office are as much a part of the team as the players on the court.

Give me an example of one top tier NBA team with a horrible front office.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

So when the front office takes a giant shit and leaves it steaming at TWC Arena center court?

You’ll be pulling hard on the way to a 30-win season and yet another lotto pick, huh?

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Celtics

if we are talking about GM’s… Just two years ago the celtics fans were calling for danny ainge to be fired… I think what happens is a team gets a great player or a team gels and all the hating gets quiet and people assume they have a good front office. I think the only way to really judge a owner is whether or not he will spend to retain or sign free agents. And to this point we have signed everyone that came up as a free agent that the fans felt should have been signed!

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Celtics were a rarified situation

Ainge got the go ahead to gamble the entire franchise’s future on a few players. Of course winning made him seem like a genius, but we’ll see how long Ainge lasts when the big three need to retire and they’ve lost all their depth.

I think there are more ways to judge an owner than free agent’s alone. Like:
- Can he secure TV rights effectively: No
- Can he secure sponsors effectively: No
- Does he present his franchise in the best possible light (aka don’t book horse shows during a playoff push): No
- Can he stick behind a franchise when times are tough: No
- Does he put the right people in place to ensure success: No
- Does he show that his team is more than a money making venture: No

There are good people in the Bobcats organization, no doubt, and Larry Brown was a good move, and he himself would not have come if it wasn’t for Jordan. But, as an owner Bob Johnson is pathetic.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

so...

Does that mean I should hate the Bobcats and cry like a bitch all the time because he didn’t secure tv rights? Get a life!!!!

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

The ad hominem remark applies to you too

And if you can’t have a discussion like an adult, I see no further point talking to you.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just wondering

I’m just wonering why you come to this site. Is this not a fan site? I come here because i’m a fan. I understand we are not going to all agree with every move but it’s one thing not to agree and another thing to constantly gripe and complain about the team or a player or the owner. I mean if you really hate them so much theres 30 other teams in the league and i’m sure you’ll find a perfect team out there for you. I try to look at the move in a positive manner. Are there going to be night when we wish we still hd okafor? Yes, but there will be nights when we say that was a great trade!

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am a passionate fan for every team I support...

I will be passionate about every move and change I see as positive and I will be passionate about every move I see as negative. Granted, I have only truly been participating in this blog for a month, but outside the scope of this topic I have consistently been contributing with news, information and opinion that very often is complementary to the team as a whole.

Yet, for the one move I truly and passionately disagree with I ‘cry like a bitch’ and need to ‘get a life’… your words not mine. Personally, I think you need a little more scope to your argument, but I promise as a fan I will never be less pationate, nor will I result in childish, petulent name calling as a substitute for a proper, well constructed argument.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

this

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being a fan≠spinning any move in a positive light

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll add another.

Does he take responsibility for his own actions: No

He’s too busy blaming the Charlotte business community.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

answer this

Please tell me guys what it is about okafor makes him worth an extra 40 million than Chandler? I don’t think the question is just who’s better but who’s more overpaid. At least we now have someone who can guard players like Bosh, Garnett, Nowitzki, and Duncan. Okafor has been destroyed by these bigger centers for the last few years. I think were at least getting equal production and saving money in the process.

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:22 PM EDT reply actions  

http://www.rufusonfire.com/2008/07/examining-emeka-okafors-new-contract.html

You can start here. Using similar analysis, you’ll probably find that in the best possible light, with Chandler playing all the games, Chandler’s a little better. The sound bet, though, is that Chandler won’t be as valuable as Okafor, and he won’t be worth as much to the team on the floor, either.

by David A. Arnott on Jul 28, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is Chandler better?

He has lesser production at higher cost.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

really?

I know i’m assuming hee but would you really rather have a healthy okafor over a healthy chandler? And it’s going to cost us an extra 1-2 million this season and next which will make absolutely no diffrence to the team this year or next. What will matter is when those numbers come off the books and chandler will when new orleans will be paying okafor 14 million in ‘12-’13…

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again...

What does that “cap space” get us? Name a single significant FA we’ve ever been able to attract. In Okafor, we had a franchise cornerstone locked up. A dominant rebounder and post defender was not going to be a need for our team for years to come. Now, in two years, we’ll have to sift through the scraps of free agency (see year, this) and pay for the next Nazr Mohammed chasing talent with money. Once upon a time, a man by the name of Bernie Bickerstaff knew that the way to build a solid franchise was through youth and the draft. Nowadays, we spend more money than anybody could reasonably accept, and it gets us castoffs from other teams. If every single one of your biggest contracts (save Wallace) are from guys whose teams gave up on them, there’s a reason for that.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

Are you really calling Okafor a cornerstone? As far as cap space I guess you don’t want it. What if DJ turns out to be top 5 point guard? You’ll need that cap space to get a deal done. Point is Okafor is a decent player but decent is not going to make us a contender.

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, you actually don't need cap space to sign your own players.

If we had an owner willing to do what it took, you can sign your own players regardless. And yes, I’m calling Okafor a cornerstone. How many guys in the NBA are a double-double threat every night and play great defense? Five? Ten, even? No, he’s not going to be your team’s star, because his offense is not good enough. But he’s a 16-18 point scorer if the PG works to find him, and his rebounding and defense are at the top of the league.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who exactly are we going to get to play C when Chandler is gone?

Are we going to blindly hope a draft pick falls into our lap, or are we going to overpay an FA who likely wont be as good as Okafor and cost more.

by James The Aussie on Jul 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

who knows?

If i knew the answer to that I probably wouldn’t be on here. But if were stuck with a average player making 14 million even if there is a option we wouldn’t have a chance

by TonyBelk on Jul 28, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

First: Nothing about Okafor’s overall game is average. As a total package, he is an above-average player whose deal is commensurate to the market value for his abilities.
Second: Since you’re so opposed to paying big money for a solid center, I guess you’d rather we start guys like Mohammed or Diop at $6-8 mil a year just so we can save money and not feel like we’re “overpaying?” Me, I’d just rather win games, and this trade doesn’t help us do that in any way.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is if we get a draft pick next season

Remember the trade we made to Denver for a conditional draft pick? If for some reason end up with the 13 pick or lower Denver gets it from what I understand. It is still unconfirmed if pick is Nuggets own pick or Bobcats pick. We will just have to play it by ear.

www.twitter.com/jmiller112

by jmiller112 on Jul 28, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

And in addition...

What is a healthy Chandler? A 12-12 guy who adds 1.5 BPG? Frankly, I’d rather get Okafor 12 shots a game (as opposed to, say, the 9.5 he got last year) and watch him put up 16-11-2.0. But hey, I guess I’ll get my chance to see that in New Orleans.

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea because Okafor will be more than a 4th option right?

Your “projections” are little more than an unabashed speculation. I’m frankly suprised you don’t project Okafor to be the first 20-20 guy in NBA history. You ride his Cock so much

by and1droid on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude. I don’t like the trade. Read it again. “in the best possible light, with Chandler playing all the games, Chandler’s a little better”, meaning when Chandler plays to his full ability and Okafor regresses a reasonable amount… It’s not inconceivable Chandler would outproduce Okafor next season. But it’s a terrible bet to happen.

by David A. Arnott on Jul 28, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, that's not how it read to me.

Struck me you were saying Chandler was a better player than Okafor if both are healthy. My projections for this season are something like 16-11-2 for Okafor and 10-10-1.5 for Chandler. I do not understand how anybody (the front office, not you) can possibly justify spending more to get outproduced that much in a “basketball move.”

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Procton is notorious...

For not reading what you really write but just making up shit on the fly. Just look at how he’s responded to some of my comments.

I call him out on it and he suddenly stops responding.

by and1droid on Jul 29, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a totally bullshit line of thinking.

Those numbers are for three years down the road, when we’ve currently got nobody to fill that starting spot, certainly not at an All-Star level of play. In the span that they’re both under contract, we’re paying Chandler more! To be a more fragile, inferior player!

Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.

by MichaelProcton on Jul 28, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...

Did Tyson pass his physical? Is he a Bobcat? Typically www.bobcatsbasketball.com will have the welcome interview and stuff with a new player…but nothing with Tyson…plus…no more news…what’s up?

by andrewlail76 on Aug 4, 2009 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

I figured

They said tha Okafor was officially a hornet…but no mention of TC

by andrewlail76 on Aug 6, 2009 11:36 AM EDT reply actions  

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