The Raymond Felton Question
by David A. Arnott on Jul 21, 2009 5:00 AM EDT
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PrintThere is an ongoing culture war in Charlotte Bobcats land. It's not exactly on par with whether or not you think the CATS Light Rail is a good idea, or whether you believe North Carolina should ban smoking in restaurants, but it's pretty close.
1 -- Do you believe Raymond Felton is worth keeping on the roster?
2 -- How much should the Bobcats be willing to pay him?
We each have answers to these questions, and the team, apparently, has its answers, extending a Qualifying Offer and beginning extension negotiations. While Bobcats Baseline has started the Andre Miller drumbeat, I think they also overestimate Felton's value on the open market. Among those of us who aren't emotionally attached to the Tar Heels, I think it's fair to say he's usually regarded as a reasonable point guard option, but with the caveat that his team will always believe there's a better option around the corner. You can also look at all the PGs and their salaries on Storyteller's site, and try to divine how NBA teams will value him based on how they've valued all the others.
I'm long on record believing that the team is best off simply letting Felton go. My second choice would be to swallow the QO price and keep him on board for one more season as Augustin insurance. And my distant third choice would be to sign him to a long term extension, even if the reasoning is that we could trade him for more value than we'd get in free agency or the draft.
I've answered the first question with in the negative, and I know plenty of Bobcats fans would answer in the affirmative. Either way, we're both banking on a dream. I want to leave plenty of playing time open for Augustin to improve, and if it so happens we can sign someone with cap space, even better. If you want to keep Felton, the dream is that he gets better and we have the happy dilemma of which starting-quality PG to keep and which to trade for different talent.
However, I'm pushed over to my side because the Bobcats just aren't in position to take chances on dreams that cost more money. The team is for sale. Any dream we pursue has the potential to make things worse, but I can't get past this notion: If we let Felton go and it doesn't work out with Augustin, that's bad, but we're not out any money we hadn't already committed. If we re-sign Felton and it doesn't work out, that's bad, and we're also out many more millions we could have used elsewhere. And that's before considering that Felton could be a perfectly solid player and represent a bad allocation of funds, since he's not likely to be the difference between making the playoffs and making the lottery.
So, consider this my last stand on the Felton issue. I don't want to leave it hanging out there anymore. Have it out. Is Raymond Felton worth keeping on the Bobcats' roster? Especially given the contracts that have already been signed this offseason and the threat of the NBA's economic collapse?
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I believe we should keep Felton...
but there is no way the team should entertain any contract for more than $8 million per season.
Resigning Felton is not a factor in the team being over the cap, Nazr, Diop and VladRad are the cap hit. That is $17 million of cap space invested in not a lot of production.
While I have always thought DJ is our PG of the future, I don’t believe losing Felton for nothing more than a salary dump is a wise idea. My prevaling thinking is this:
- For a long time the mythical Summer of 2010 was supposed to reverse the fortunes of teams and ease their woes. Starting with the Knicks 2 years ago we started witnessing mass salary dumps in order to have room to sign a D-Wade, Lebron or Amare. Due to this current economic crisis in the NBA these players who waiting for 2010 are not going to see the potential money open to them on the free market. As one analyst put it
“You’re going to see a lot of these big name players resigning with their teams mid-season”
Yao is up in the air, with the resigning of Nash in Phoenix I think Amare will follow, if the Heat can get Odom I think Wade will re-up, and ultimately I really feel LBJ will stay in Cleveland. Teams that dumped salary and hoarded expiring contracts (Knicks, Nets etc.) will then be looking for talent or risk having nothing. Then, we might be able to trade Felton and one of our bad contracts for picks, cash and expiring contracts.
Ultimately, I think we need to hang on to him for the purpose of trading him. If we end up in a situation where alot of teams telling fans that the reason for their 3 previous losing seasons was to ‘wait until 2010’ and then the big names bow out early, you will see a mad dash to aquire talent to satiate the fanbase. I definitely see a team like the Knicks send some of their expiring contracts for a player like Felton just to ease the ire of the NY fanbase.
I think Felton is a quality PG and we should try our hardest to keep him. I also think Augustine is a quality PG therefore we shouldn’t be willing to offer Felton more than 6 or 7 million(that is still a lot). I think if he was worth more than that another team would have already made him a substanial offer. Someone may make him an offer but I just hope he is back in Charlotte.
www.twitter.com/jmiller112
Keep Him
To me the key question here is whether the money spent on Felton could be better used somewhere else. With the current composition of the Bobcats, that “somewhere else” is power forward. And the Bobcats would still need to sign a cheaper alternative to back up DJ.
Most of the best free agent options at PF have already signed. Big Baby Davis and Drew Gooden are the only two remaining FA’s that should earn something in the range of what the Bobcats could save by not signing Felton. IMO Davis is unproven and probably not a long term solution at PF. He has a big body, but like his former teammate James Posey last year, he’s been showcased to the extent that he’s now overrated. Had Powe not destroyed his knee, Davis would not even be in this conversation. On the other hand, Gooden could be a very good fit on the Bobcats as a solid rebounder and scorer. Still it’s unknows whether the Bobcats would actually try to sign him or whether he has much interest in signing with Charlotte.
Meanwhile Felton’s negotiating leverage and thus his cost is likely decreasing as the off-season grinds on. With all the free agent PG buzz centering on Ramon Sessions, the Bobcats are right to wait him out. His prospects of landing a deal for more than the MLE have definitely taken a hit, and the Bobcats may be able to sign him at a bargain price if he isn’t able to draw an offer sheet soon. Under that scenario, Felton might be more amenable to signing a shorter contract or just accepting the QO, which IMO are better outcomes than signing him to a five or six year deal.
If the Bobcats do not sign Felton, they will need to find a veteran to back up DJ. Currently the PG options available in free agency are even thinner than at PF. They would be looking for someone who could hold down the fort for a year or two, such as Anthony Carter or Bobby Jackson since there aren’t any young prospects available even to consider.
While I would be satisfied with the Bobcats signing Gooden and Carter and letting Felton go elsewhere, I think the more likely scenario is that if the Bobcats don’t sign Felton, they’ll hold onto the savings and sign near-minimum salary replacements at both backup PG and PF. In that scenario, they’d be left with a very thin bench, and their chances of making the playoffs would take a big hit.
I'm not sure I agree with you about the PG options.
Juan Dixon has been a very nice 20-25 MPG player over his career, and he’s only 30. He’ll probably come very cheap after getting less than $1 mil last year and receiving little interest on the market. Flip Murray are another couple of guys who’d probably come pretty cheap and provide some veteran stability to the position.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Dixon and Flip are cheap options
But I didn’t include them because both are really just backup shooting guards who can play a little PG in a pinch. Their career AST/TO ratios of 1.5 (Flip) and 1.4 (Dixon) are nowhere near Felton’s 2.5 or even Augustin’s 2.1. Both have been around long enough that we can assume they are not going to dramatically morph into something we haven’t seen from them to date. If Augustin went down with a serious injury, I wouldn’t have any confidence that either of these guys could keep us in the playoff hunt.
we could spend that money somewhere else
thanks to the dead weight of Mohamed and Diop we have less salary space available
Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing
We could, and I agree there are better options than Felton
But my point is that if we don’t sign Felton, we aren’t likely to sign anyone else of significance either. I’d prefer signing Ramon Sessions, for example, to Felton, but that doesn’t seem like an option the Bobcats are considering.
So if the choices are Felton or a lesser player, I’ll take Felton and cross my fingers that the Bobcats phase him into a 6th man role while Augustin develops into a quality starter. I don’t see any other realistic way the Bobcats improve this season.
he'll probably want a large salary, more than it is worth having him as a bench player
Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing
He can't be paid more than the MLE
Due to some very complicated technicalities of the NBA collective bargaining agreement. And that’s probably what it would take to get him. Sessions wouldn’t necessarily be a bench player though, and he could log minutes at both guard positions.
1. Let Felton walk. His value to this team is greatly exaggerated and just as his value in the league is overrated do to the high amount of minutes he plays.
2. If you have to bite the bullet on Felton just pay him his QO and his one year.
This team is not going to make the playoffs by simply bringing back the same core of players. I know Brown has a track record of improving teams but this team is simply going to be too weak to compete in it’s own division. If you aren’t getting better than you are only getting worse. I feel that the Heat, Wizards and of course the Magic have gotten better. Only the Hawks in this division, have stayed the course and not made a lot of moves.
In addition we’ve seen the Raptors get better, the Pistons improve through the loses of Rasheed and Iverson combined with their off-season additions and the Pacers figure to improve through the maturation of a superstar in Danny Granger. The race for the last three spots in the East looks to be super competitive. Yet, the Bobcats have been unable to make any moves and thus have not gotten better.
Cut costs now by letting Felton walk. Look toward the future.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
#1 is SO important.
While his raw numbers look pretty good, his rate stats are average at best.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 21, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The Future?
Normally, I’d agree that signing a player to a multi-year contract near the MLE is a bad idea if he’s not really a part of the team’s long term core. I’m far from being a big Felton fan or a Carolina booster. But the Bobcats are at a crossroads right now. They showed last season that they are oh so close to getting over the hump and becoming a playoff team. But they also are not very far removed from dropping back into the depths of the Eastern Conference.
The Bobcats finally began to find an identity last season, and if I’m not mistaken, a few people in Charlotte actually began to notice them. If they can keep that momentum going by contending for the playoffs, they might even become a viable NBA franchise. This team badly needs to win in order to sell tickets and fund a competitive roster, and they cannot afford to lose core players without offsetting that loss.
I’m not arguing that Felton is the great difference maker who will propel this team into the playoffs on his own. I am saying that the Bobcats need talent, and Felton is the best player the Bobcats are likely to sign this off-season and probably next off-season, too. Even if the Bobcats let Felton leave now and Raja walk next year, they still won’t have enough cap space to offer more than the MLE next year, which past history shows they are unlikely to use. And they don’t have much in the way of expiring contracts or trade exceptions to facilitate trades either.
While I don’t want Felton to be the volume shooter he’s been in the past, I also don’t believe the Bobcats will be a playoff team this year with a bench of VladRad, Gerald Henderson and a bunch of overpaid castoffs and roster fillers. As a team with no true stars, the Bobcats do not have the margin for error to also overcome a thin bench. Without Felton, the Bobcats will have big holes behind both Augustine and Diaw. A couple significant injuries (such as happened to the Wiz last year and the Heat two years ago) could torpedo this team into irrelevance in a hurry, and I’m concerned that they might not recover for a long time.
I believe signing Felton to a 2 or 3 year deal near the MLE is necessary to remain a playoff contender in the short run. And I believe remaining a playoff contender in the short run is critical to developing into something better after Larry Brown eventually leaves the Bobcats. Let’s hope Brown leaves a team more like the Pistons of the recent past rather than the Clippers of the early 90’s. Both could be real possibilities for this team.
Having him on the roster is a problem in and of itself...
Because of the school Felton went to, he will always have more value assigned to his intangibles relative to his actual playing skills than any other player; just look at where the majority of the coaching staff and executives went to school and how glowingly they speak of him in spite of the fact that he’s no better now as a fifth-year vet than he was as a rookie. As long as he’s on the roster, he’ll always be the starter, potentially at the expense of a better player (Augustin, B. Knight.) As such, I’d hate to see them give him a multi-year extension of any sort, even if he would be worth at least the MLE-$7 million over 3-5 years. It’s been said more than once by people more knowledgeable than me that Ray Felton is not a starter for a playoff team, and given we aspire to be one of those, we should take care of that.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
exactly he's an average guard at best
and a below average shooter usually
Rays baseball + Colorado Football= amazing
Felton
So Jamal Tinsley was released from his contract. Does anyone else agree that it would be wiser to let Felton leave and bring Jamal Tinsley in for some of the MLE? I know he just got bought out for millions, but the man can’t be asking for much to play ball again. I’m just weighing the pros and cons.
Pros- We get rid of Felton, and his ridiculous shot choice. We get a veteran to backup Augustin, and guide him in the right direction. We pay less, over less years.
Cons- We lose any investment that we’ve had in Felton’s potential. We can’t trade Felton. We lose his “leadership”
If they’re asking the same price, bring back Felton, but if we can get Tinsley for cheaper, why not try?
Anyone agree?
I agree that a veteran is the answer to help guide DJ....
but I don’t think Tinsley is the right fit, especially when a player like Kevin Ollie is available and could be had for much, much cheaper.
by James Dator on Jul 22, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately...
We’ve shown no signs of potential interest in Tinsley, and the Heat (another division rival making an apparent effort to get better) have. I doulbe we’d do it.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 22, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you prefer Tinsley?
Besides the fact that he’s not Felton, why do you think Tinsley would be a good acquisition? Considering the reasons you dislike Felton, I would have expected you to feel the same about Tinsley.
He definitely is not the kind of player who we want to “guide [Augustin] in the right direction.” The Pacers didn’t want him around their team so badly that they paid him just to stay away last year. And they would be in a position to know him best having been his employer the last eight years.
Besides the load of baggage Tinsley would bring with him, he’s definitely a downgrade from Felton in terms of talent. His one obvious strength is his ability to create scoring opportunities for other players, but even there his career assists to TO’s (7.0/2.9) is about the same as Felton’s (6.7/2.7). He’s an even worse shooter than Felton and also tends to forget his shooting limitations. He’s very injury prone and was unable to play four out of the past five seasons (not including last season when he didn’t play at all). For all Felton’s limitations, he at least plays hard, doesn’t miss games and doesn’t cause trouble. Tinsley comes with the same limitations but many more liabilities.
He does have some problems, yes.
He shoots too many shots at a low percentage, but part of that comes from having needed to be a scoring force and taking too many shots from the outside. Under Brown, that is one thing Felton has improved (although he also showed a decline in 3s taken under Vincent, FWIW.) If Tinsley could similarly come down 40% or so in the number of 3s he takes, his FG% would come up towards the 40%. Further, you understate his ability to set up his teammates. Yes, the career numbers look similar, but look at the rate stats. Tinsley is up at 11.1/48, relative to Felton’s 9.1. That shows me a guy who makes playmaking his priority. The injuries are also a concern, yes, but he’s certainly had plenty of time off to get well. Finally, as I alluded to above, I just don’t see this staff ever telling Felton to take a seat, and I don’t see him taking it well if they do. Tinsley could certainly be a guy who would be more willing to come off the bench to get his career off track. Finally, I don’t think he’ll cost as much (in dollars or years) to get a hold of. I highly doubt he’ll match Felton’s $5.5 mil QO in a one-year pact, and I doubt he’d get even MLE money in a multi-year deal. If they’re the same player (and, to some degree, they are), why not get the more cost-effective version, particularly if the more expensive one has shown a tendency to pull the wool over the eyes of your staff?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
How in the hell?
How can anyone who hates Felton so vehemently actively seek to acquire Tinsley? Anyone but Carolina I guess. Tinsley will be cheaper. He also has taken an entire season off, meaning it will be a while before he reaches basketball shape again. Out of Tinsley’s career he’s played more than 70 games for only 3 seasons. Felton’s played close to every game of his career. Tinsley gets more assists on average than Felton, but only like 2 more per 36 minutes. Given all the strikes against Tinsley, given the fact that Chemistry is SO IMPORTANT for a Larry Brown team, given that Felton has a year learning under Brown already under his belt, why would we set ourselves 5 steps back by signing Tinsley and letting Felton walk? If you’re talking about signing better talent to replace Felton there may be an argument, but who in their right mind thinks that TInsley can walk in and start on any NBA team right away, much less a Larry Brown team?
Felton has been a team first guy for a long time. Can anyone give me any reason why we should assume he wouldn’t accept a 6th man role if it’s best for the team?
One final point: Let’s not make excuses for Tinsley doing the same thing that we criticize Felton for. Felton is the guy who ends up with the ball in his hands as the shot clock winding down because it’s getting kicked back out from the post. Felton takes too many shots because there’s no star scorer on the Bobcats. Don’t be a hypocrite.
"Took a season off?"
Tinsley was not allowed to play. I, for one, certainly didn’t suggest he should start.
Felton whined about how the organization wasn’t meeting his contract demands and vowed to shop himself. Given his inflated sense of his value, why would you expect him to be happy about sitting on the bench behind a younger (if better) player? Further, I’ll again mention that I don’t see this organization pulling him from the starting lineup because his “intangibles” are so attractive to them, even if he hasn’t improved since he was drafted and hasn’t taken this team anywhere.
Finally, as to the shot selection concerns: Tinsley has shown the ability to be a .470+ eFG guy. Felton’s career high? .446. Gross. Further, Felton jacks shots up at the expense of better offensive options (i.e. Okafor and Wallace, both of whom should be getting more shots a game than Felton.) Who were those studs in Indianapolis Tinsley was neglecting?
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
True
He was not allowed to play (RED FLAG). Regardless, he hasn’t played in a long time, which is the point that I was making.
Tinsley has played along side Reggie Miller, Ron Artest, Jermaine O’neal, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington… He’s played alongside a lot more scorers than Felton has.
I like Okafor and Wallace. They both get an equal share of shots. Okafor tends to have his big games against teams w/out interior defense(OKC, Memphis, Washington, LA Clippers). Against certain teams he should be fed the ball, but he’s never going to be a go to guy on offense.
Felton whined? Really? I’d like a quote of what he was whining. He’s trying to get a good contract for himself. I’m not going to blame a guy for that. You’re taking a huge leap in logic my friend by equating that with a bad attitude.
Finally, If Tinsley isn’t going to start, I’m assuming you expect D.J. to take over the starting job. I want him to get lots of minutes can the guy can score, but he’s also pretty small. He’s a liability on defense(Felton isn’t) and who knows how durable. Why have one quality PG in D.J. when you can have two in D.J. and Felton?
Why pay starting PG money for Felton when he won’t start? D.J. is the future of this team.
The difference between Felton and Tinsley is all money.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+a million
Thank you.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Felton is not better than Augustin on defense, period.
The numbers don’t show it at all.
Oh, and of the players you mentioned, the only one whom Tinsley had a higher shot rate than was Stephen Jackson in ‘06-’07. And Jackson wasn’t even Tinsley’s typical SG. Mike Dunleavy was. Felton has had a higher shot rate than Okafor in every season of his career, and he was only lower than Wallace once: ‘07-’08, Wallace’s best statistical offensive year.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 23, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
WRONG!
The numbers do show it. Just take a look at queencityhoops. Felton is a good defender. D.J. is a liability.
Procton, are you really paying attention to what you’re saying? First you justify Tinsley’s poor shooting on the volume of shots that he “had” to take because he had no scorers on his team. When that was proven wrong(Reggie Miller, Ron Artest, Jermaine O’neal, etc.) you now say that he’s not taking too many shots. Which is it? Can you look up a statistic to argue your way out of this one? Your circular logic has run into a dead end.
Shots per game is a useful statistic, but why should anyone assume that Okafor should be taking more shots than Felton? I’ll remake the point I made earlier. Okafor can only score big against teams that don’t have good interior defense. In those games he did get shots last season. You’re also ignoring all the times he gets the ball down low and kicks it back to Felton with the clock ticking down.
Because Okafor shoots almost 60%, while Felton can't even shoot 40%.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
That's specious reasoning
Okafor shoots a high percentage because he stays within his limited offensive range. Don’t get me wrong, that’s a good thing. I like him for the double double that he brings every night. That doesn’t mean we can start treating him like he’s Dwight Howard just because he shoots a good %. More shots for Okafor also means more trips to the line. Do we really want to run our offense through him?
Felton actually does shoot right at 40%.
Procton. I love how you drop an argument when it makes you look stupid. Why don’t you pick back up the Tinsley mantle? You’re the one who argued that he took too many shots. I never said that, YOU DID. Then you decided to change your argument when you realized that he was playing alongside guys who shot the ball a little better than Okafor. Don’t whimp out now. Find some crazy statistic to make us all laugh.
I just joined this forum but...
I do agree that Felton’s a much better defender than Augustin. I’ve seen Augustin get beat too many times by a quicker PG. I don’t think Augustin’s ready to start either to be honest.
From what I know, Brown was going to start Augustin ahead of Felton last season, but now both Jordan and Brown wants Felton here. I think there’s a lot to like about Felton outside of what the stats show.
Plus, Felton would have a better FG% if he was allowed to play as a pure point guard, instead of having to play a combo guard (paired up with Knight, some PG can’t remember the name of, and Augustin). Many times in his career, he had to shoot over much bigger opponents because of that.
I know I’m not much of a stats-guy, and I admit some of the flaws Felton has in his game. I think that with all the players that we have the upcoming season, we’ll see the real Felton play up to his hype. If I keep him, then we know that Brown trusts Felton with his team.
And Felton wasn’t at the first contract meeting with the Bobcats, so you can’t accuse him for having a poor attitude. Plus, we wont know what the offer was, so it could’ve been much lower than what everyone expected.
From what I read, it said “While Bradbury declined to discuss numbers, he indicated there was a surprisingly hefty difference in the deals he and Higgins proposed for the restricted free agent point guard.”
Does not say anything about Felton’s attitude.
Wrong.
Felton has always shot better and less often when playing SG, because his shots were dictated by the flow of the offense, rather than his own desire to jack ’em up at any time.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Also guys
I hate to break it to you, but D.J. isn’t ready to start. I like him, but you’re talking about losing a lot of games if you let go of Felton without replacing him with real talent. No way Charlotte’s going to give him more than market value.
Procton, you talked pretty assuredly about Felton being a whiner and having a poor attitude. You’ve yet to back that claim up.
He boo-hooed his way out of the first contract meeting with the Bobcats.
You look it up. I know what I read.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
This is how Felton "whines" over his new contract...
http://www.wmbfnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=10788376
“My future’s with the Bobcats, but at the same time, it’s a business,” said Felton. “The situation is going back and forth with my agent and the Bobcats. I try to stay away from that. I told them to just call me when it’s time to sign.”
“I still haven’t signed yet, it’ll feel even better when I take that pen in there and sign that paper,” said Felton.
We'd lose alot of games with Augustin starting...really?
- In games where Augustin played over 30 minutes the Bobcats had a record of 10-12. (0.416 win %)
- In games where Felton played over 30 minutes the Bobcats had a record of 27-36 (0.428 win %)
They have almost identical win %‘s and Augustin was a rookie. There is no reason to think he’s going to have a sophmore slump.
Augustin had a 2.1 assist to turnover ratio last season
Felton had a 2.4 assist to turnover ratio last season
I’m sorry, but there is no statistical proof there would be a significant drop off between Felton and Augustin as starters.
Sure there is.
There’s a statistical dropoff in grittiness and hustlability.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Statistics w/out context can be misleading
WInning % means little to 1 player. Do you really think that the Bobcats were playing at the same level during Felton’s rookie season as they were this past season? The Bobcats won 26 games during Felton’s rookie season. In games that he played over 30 minutes the team went 20-23. A far larger sample than D.J.’s this season.
I could use those numbers to say Felton contributed to 20 of our 26 wins blah blah blah.
Statistics without context say very little my friend.
I like D.J. and I hope he gets more minutes, but it’s fool hearted to just assume that he’s ready to take over and be a star after one SOLID (not great) season as a rookie.
Buddy...
Those weren’t Felton’s numbers from his rookie year. They were from last year. In addition, you certainly don’t have to be a star to be better than Felton.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
What is that you say about facts Procton?
Fact is, those are numbers from his ROOKIE year. Check it again. My point is that those numbers really don’t mean anything anyway. I was comparing it to the stats that Aussie brought out to show how little it means.
Aha...
So his stats don’t mean anything, but yours do.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you even trying to make sense anymore?
I was criticizing James the Aussie’s use of statistics. I added a little context to show that a players winning % for playing 30+ minutes during his rookie year may not really be saying that much.
Nothing personal to James the Aussie, but I disagree that that is a compelling stat.
You're still ignoring the Tinsley argument Procton
Why is that? Isn’t he taking to mamy shots to drive his shooting % down while not taking too many shots at the same time?
That is what you argued, why stop now?
If he were to play more controlled and not shoot so many 3s (not shots overall)...
Yes, he’d shoot a better percentage. That’s what I said, I believe:
If Tinsley could similarly come down 40% or so in the number of 3s he takes, his FG% would come up towards the 40%
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 24, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Some more direct quotes from Procton concerning his crush on Tinsley
He shoots too many shots at a low percentage, but part of that comes from having needed to be a scoring force…
Who were those studs in Indianapolis Tinsley was neglecting? (I responded by reminding you that Tinsley played alongside Reggie Miller, Jermaine O’neal in his prime, Ron Artest, etc.)
Oh, and of the players you mentioned, the only one whom Tinsley had a higher shot rate than was Stephen Jackson in ‘06-’07
So what is it Procton? Those are all direct quotes from you, in context. If TInsley had such a low shooting % because he had to be such a scoring force, why do his numbers show that he’s not taking more shots than several good scorers on his team?
I was pointing out the hypocrisy in making silly excuses for Jamal Tinsley having a subpar shooting % while ripping Felton for the same thing. Then you go and get real nutty by contradicting yourself. It’s all there to read buddy.
As far as the roster is concerned....
Am I the only one who believes that the roster (as it currently exists) is good enough to be a playoff caliber team?
i see it as follows:
PG Felton/ Augustin (Jefferson or Martin)
SG Bell / Henderson (Jefferson or Martin)
SF Wallace / Brown
PF Diaw / Radmanovic (Ajinca and/or Mohammed)
C Okafor/ Diop (Ajinca and/or Mohammed)
I see lots of other eastern conference teams making moves…however, it is too early to definitively say whether or not they have improved. If the Bobcats pick up where they left off last year — plus getting athletic, bench contributions from Henderson, Brown & Ajinca — i feel like they should be contending for a playoff spot.
Cartier Martin is not a PG. That team listed is going to struggle to make the playoffs.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
wow
what an intelligent and insightful comment. Not.
Why would you even waste your time (and everyone else’s who read this lame comment) by saying something so pointless?
Outside of your opinion on Martin (whom i put in there in parenthesis as an after thought and a 3rd string Guard), care to give any reasons why that team would “struggle to make the playoffs”? Or do you prefer to make naked assertions with nothing behind them to back them up?
Because that team struggled and failed to make the playoffs last year
I’d feel a lot better about the Bobcats chances at the playoffs had they brought in at least one more decent player preferably a PF since neither Diaw nor Radmanovic is much of rebounder. I hope they do make the playoffs, but they have never done it before and haven’t made any significant changes to their team so far this off-season. Thus, they likely will struggle to make the playoffs. If circumstances line up right, they could squeeze in as a 7th or 8th seed, and we would all celebrate that accomplishment.
What did you write that was so intelligent and insightful? You just listed all the players and said you think they are good enough to make the playoffs. Brilliant! I’m glad you’re a fan, but why criticize someone else’s opinion when all you wrote was your opinion.
Besides listing the roster ,I also...
…mentioned the fact the the ‘Cats young talent should be able to provide production off the bench next season. Augustin, Henderson, Brown and potentially Ajinca may all be athletic contributors to the Bobcats playoff run next season. While other “fans” are bad mouthing the current players and coveting others (that usually aren’t even an improvement) i am suggesting that the best course of action is to develop the players we already have. We’ve spent three 1st round picks and one 2nd round pick on Augustin Henderson, Ajinca & Brown, now lets use them!
And “that team” you mention didn’t even exist last year. The starters at the end of last season we’re not in Charlotte for a large portion of last season. By the end of the year the Cats were playing playoff caliber basketball — they just got started too late to make the playoffs. This coming season they will have the whole year to play together; plus the young talent mentioned above contributing as well.
So many Charlotte sport fans are fickle and seem to root against their teams as much as they root for them. Fair weather fans that only support teams that are already winners. If the Cats did make the playoffs next year what would all you “fans” have to complain about? I know, you’d still hate Felton, & Brown & Jordan regardless, but it would be more difficult to disguise your true feelings if the Cats were winning more. Admit it. You really do NOT want Jordan, LB or Felton to be successful.
I always find it interesting when other people think that when someone complains that the complainer is just a whiny “fair weather” fan.
As far as it being a Charlotte thing? I wouldn’t know I don’t live there. The Bobcats are the only team I root for out of the region.
Don’t we want the same thing? A winning Bobcat team.
Why would I waste my time on a Bobcat message board if it wasn’t so?
Stop building this into a “you against the evil idiot fans” argument. You’re not a pariah, you’re a guy with an opinion, typing on a message board. Get over yourself.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
+1
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
The starters at the end of the year were here for nearly 3/4 of the year, and they still didn’t do anything. When they had a shot at the playoffs, the team as currently constructed was plowing games to MIN, DET, and MIL.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
this
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hope this insight helps-
The Wizards, Heat, Magic all improved. A healthy Gilbert does wonders already but adding Foye and Miller give this team depth. All signs are pointing to the Heat adding Boozer or Odom to join Dwayne Wade. The Magic lost Hedo but acquired Vince Carter. If Carter is willing to change his role in that offense he’ll flourish. Add the signing of Brandon Bass and the matching of Gortat and you have a scary deep team. That’s three teams in our division.
Elsewhere, the Pistons also improved by letting go of Iverson, say what you will about the Gordon signing but that team got better and younger. The Pacers have a legitimate superstar in Danny Granger, someone that can carry his team in every game. That is more than the Bobcats have. The Raptors also improved with Hedo. The Nets, 76ers and Bulls all took hits but New Jersey has a better chance of competing now without Carter than they did with him. Now they have a young team that can grow together like the Bulls did last year.
So I ask you in the face of all these improvements and the Bobcats staying pat how is this team getting substantially better?
If anything the East is more competitive than ever.
Also, if it’s so painfully obvious Cartier Martin isn’t a PG why would you even slot him behind Augustin and Felton?
Go somewhere else if you want to pick fights.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Standing pat is the appropriate action in certain circumstances.
Of the teams you listed as “getting better” (Heat, Magic & Wiz) only the Wizards finished behind the Bobcats last season anyway. Charlotte is not going to catch Orlando next season no matter what. Nor the Heat in all likelyhood — barring another D-Wade injury. And you think Foye and Mike Miller are great additions? Enough for the Wiz to be competitors?
You say the Nets have a better chance to succeed without Vince Carter than with him because “Now they have a young team that can grow together like the Bulls did last year.” Well isn’t that what i’m advocating the ‘Cats should do this year? Why is that good for the Nets but not the Bobcats? So Carter leaving NJ is good for the Nets, but Orlando getting Carter is good for the Magic? Right, i’m not following your logic here.
You state that the Bulls (east # 6) & 76ers (#7) took hits— two teams the ’Cats could reasonably catch next season. The Bobcats did not take any hits, and thus far have resisted making any hasty roster decisions like so many “fans” here are advocating. The team has a chance to grow together and learn under LB for a second consecutive season, plus adding 2 or 3 young athletes to the roster as well. Sounds like a good base to me. Why make moves that may or may NOT make the team better? Standing pat is a good thing sometimes.
Also...
…with Felton & Augustin both on the roster and Diaw being a playmaking PF, i think Cartier Martin would actually be as sufficient 3rd string PG & SG.
No.
Cartier Martin cannot play PG, thus, he cannot be the 3rd PG.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you take the nucleus of:
C-Lopez
PF- Yi (Yuck, but apparently the Nets have interest in Big Baby)
SF- Terrance Williams
SG- Courtney Lee
PG- Devin Harris
That’s a solid young group of guys. There isn’t solid depth behind them but that is an intriguing mix of young guys. I wouldn’t be surprised if they won 40+ games. Likewise if they hit an early funk or injuries this team could be as bad as the Bucks.
The Bobcats have an intriguing group as well but there is a lack of a consistent scoring threat. I’m also not overly enthusiastic about going undersized all season. I know that we get rebounds at unique positions but the front-line of this team is weak. Especially if you look at the depth of it.
My point still remains that it is extremely rare for any team that is trying to compete to simply bring back the same group of guys plus or minus an also-ran. Would you even try to argue that the East hasn’t gotten stronger?
There are few people on this board that want drastic changes to be made. Myself and others feel that signing Felton to any kind of extension would be a step back for the this clubs competitive future. I’d rather save that money and invest it in something else. Not a back-up point guard.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Chemistry
A good argument can be made for the Cat’s playing better by virtue of having a training camp and full season with their current roster. Charlotte by far made the most roster moves of any team last season. That has an impact on the quality of play.
I also think you’re overstating the improvements of some of the teams in the East. Washington has yet to prove that they’re a winning team. On paper, yes they are, but adding Foye and Miller kind of duplicates their strengths without addressing their true needs (defense and post scoring). A healthy Washington team has potential, but far from a sure playoff team.
All reports have Miami nowhere near close to getting Boozer. Odom is a more likely option but a deal isn’t done until it’s done.
The only team that may have really jumped ahead of Charlotte in the offseason is Toronto. Though they still lack a true center and their coaching situation is shaky.
It would have been nice to see the Bobcats make some improvements to their roster, but I’m more relieved that the team is more interested in being patient rather than making poor choices in the name of “getting better.” Signing Carroll to a crazy contract, trading for Nazr, etc. These were stupid moves that ate up caproom. More of that isn’t necessary.
Again no one is arguing that action most be taken or wants a roster shake up. Obviously no one wants Matt Carroll or Nazr part II.
I just don’t think the Bobcats returning the same team ensures them a playoff berth.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Well yes people are wanting a roster shake up
mjschaefer, you may not be arguing for a roster overhaul. Good for you! Others on this board, however, are all for bringing new players just to see moves made.
Look above for the Jamal Tinsley debate and decide if you really want him on your team.
Procton. I certainly never said that improved chemistry means an extra 10 wins. If the only way you can debate me is by putting words in my mouth, then I guess that’s what you’ll do. Why not look at what I’m really saying and not what you want to hear.
I still contend that the team will improve with more time playing together. That’s not the off the wall, ludicrous statement that you’re trying to make it out to be. As far as last season, yes the current starts did play the majority of the games played last season. Wallace and Bell spent significant time out with injuries, however, as did key reserve D.J. Augustine. Injuries are part of the game, but these injuries definitely hurt Charlotte’s playoff run.
True, Washington was a first round bye for the Cavaliers for 3 seasons. How can anyone assume that Arenas will be healthy next year? I’m a huge Arenas fan, but I’m not going to count on him again until I see him play. If you’ll read carefully, I said they have the potential to make the playoffs. After last years implosion, along with the uncertainty of Arenas’ knee, how can anyone be certain that they will? That’s the point that I’m making.
I expect Charlotte to be able to compete for a playoff spot next year. Am I really all that crazy?
Sorry...
But the “enhanced chemistry” of having a couple weeks of training camp does not mean 10 wins. And Washington was a playoff team with a Arenas, Butler, and Jamison all healthy.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously...how dare you, mjs?
dmh thinks this is a playoff team, so don’t even contemplete that it wouldn’t be.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree completely
The starting 5 that finished the season actually played playoff caliber ball last season.
We all know that players need time before they really hit their stride in Larry Brown’s system.
Why do we want to mess with that chemistry when we’re not getting better talent-wise?
If we can add an all star to the team that’s one thing, but petty moves (Tinsley) just to be making move makes no sense guys.
Factual.
Benneton on Friday.
Remember, kids...don't ever let facts get in the way of your argument.
by MichaelProcton on Jul 25, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
Team chemistry goes along way in basketball, and the closing part of last season demonstrated that the ‘Cats were improving theirs. Add to the mix this year’s draft picks Henderson & Brown, plus hopefully some PT and contributions from the young 7-foot, former 1st round draft pick Alexis Ajinca and even more improvements from DJ Augustin….not to mention having the same coach two years in a row! I see the potential for some big gains this season.
Making FA moves that do not make the team any better is pointless. The cheap way to improve a roster is through draft picks, practice, and patience — not quick fix FA acquisitions.
And as for Felton...
Let me first predicate this by reiterating that I am NOT a UNC fan! (in fact in the days of my youth i was an ABC’er hardcore)
At this point Felton is a better point guard than Augustin. Releasing Felton this year would be taking steps back immediately in hopes the team can make giant leaps forward eventually.
Felton is a reliable veteran that puts up solid (not outstanding) PG statistics, while playing hard nosed Defense every game. Augustin is an unproven second year PG who shoots the ball really well and put up solid (not outstanding) rookie stats but could not stay healthy for the entirety of his rookie season.
It is NOT time to turn the keys over to DJ!
The Cats made the right move in making Raymond the QO. If he accepts it, then that buys the team time to develop DJ (and Brown, Henderson & Ajinca) and hopefully make a solid playoff run this season. Then they can make the tough decisions (DJ or RayRay?) next year; knowing even more about what the roster needs to keep improving.
If Felton balks at the 5.5 million and does throw a fit for more money then i say let him go and the Cats can try to find a solid veteran PG, but i don’t expect that to happen. Most likely Felton will either sign the QO or negoiate a long term deal that saves Charlotte money this year while making Felton better potential trade bait.
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