Bobcats Stuff Nuggets 107-95; Gerald Wallace Continues His Rampage Through the NBA
by David A. Arnott on Dec 8, 2009 9:52 PM EST
209 comments
The Bobcats and Nuggets fought back and forth, with neither team proving superiority until late in the fourth quarter, when Charlotte went on a mini-run, jumped ahead, and didn't look back until the horn sounded on a 107-95 win.
It's encouraging in the big picture that the Cats dropped a Western Conference power like the Nuggets, even considering that Denver was on the second half of a back to back, and even considering that one of their key cogs, Kenyon Martin, was held out with an injury. On occasion, Charlotte has shown the ability to play like this (see the Cleveland game), and it's incredibly satisfying when they put it all together for a full game. It's fantastic to win those games, but even if they lose, we don't come away feeling like we put ourselves through the ringer.
Highlights and lowlights after the jump.
BAD
-- Can Boris Diaw be disappointing if he's not really doing anything negative? It's just that he's not doing anything positive, either. I'm sure we can do better than an upper middle class man's Luke Walton for our starting power forward.
-- 10 minutes for Stephen Graham? Really? 4 minutes for Gerald Henderson is atrocious. At least Derrick Brown got 8 and a half minutes.
-- Tyson Chandler. Dude. Please. Get it together. Or admit you've got an injury and rest until you're at full health.
GOOD
-- I don't think I can sing Gerald Wallace's praises any louder. The man deserves an All Star campaign if ever any player deserved one. Anyone want to make an advocacy video? 25 points and 16 rebounds tonight. We've gotta be careful not to grow complacent and take Crash for granted. He. Is. A. Beast.
-- I think when Good Raymond Felton shows up, it leads to a success cycle. He'll never be a great offensive player, and he's Bad Felton when he acts like he is. What I mean by that is that if he's Good Felton through the first three quarters, distributing, only taking shots when it'd be crazy for him not to, then when Must Take Crunch Time Shots Felton shows up, he's already established his willingness to facilitate, which the opponent must respect. Thus, it's easier for Must Take Crunch Time Shots Felton to score, even if, optimally, he shouldn't be taking those shots. 14 points on 6-7 shooting. Only 3 assists, but 6 steals! I love the idea that he might tailor his game in the Kirk Hinrich model, only taking way fewer three point attempts. Spend energy playing tough defense, facilitate on offense, and be fearless in a scoring role when every other option is cut off. (I know hope is a dangerous thing...)
-- I like when Stephen Jackson plays a bigger role facilitating, too. It actually plays more to Augustin's and Murray's strengths when Jax and Diaw take on point forward responsibilities, so when those guys are at the nominal PG position, maybe that should be the strategy. In any event, Jackson's 6 assists were a welcome sight, and I think it would open up the offense a bit, and perhaps jump start Diaw's game again, by giving those forwards more creative responsibilities, especially when Good Felton isn't in the game.
-- Team defense was excellent, as usual. I feared they wouldn't have an answer for Ty Lawson, but they held him in check. They kept Chauncey in check. 'Melo scored 34, but turned it over 6 times. J.R. Smith needed 16 shots to get his 16 points. Only Nene rebounded in double figures.
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line of the night!
Billups 14 points on 4-11 shooting, 1 assist, 0 rebounds, and 5 turnovers!
Great Game
As a Bobcats fan who recently moved to Colorado, this win was especially satisfying, It just makes me smile when we have good games like this. Course, interspersed we obsessionally have game like the Nets, but, it makes these games oh so much better.
great win
Free Throws
31 of 37 tonight. The Cats need that every night.
Imagine how tough this game is if the Cats only shoot 60% from the line instead of the .838 they shot tonight.
David this Good Felton bad Felton stuff is a bunch of Crap. Give the Guy the Credit he deserves he is playing great Basketball Just come out and say Felton is playing Great. You say you like Jacksons Facilitating did you like the 4 turnovers on stupid passes must be the Bad Jackson right. Can we at least judge players using the same scales. I know you have a man crush on DJ but can you just come out and say it . DJ is playing like crap he needs to find some game instead of Hes not getting mins so thats why he is off his game . Just saying call it like it is
He's a point guard. He had three assists.
That’s pitiful.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Touche. But six steals is respectable.
Not trying to enter the Felton debate that you people so passionately like to get into, though.
Regardless, another good W. It’s good to see Charlotte start well with 3 games against good Western Conference teams. To San Antonio!
by CharginChuck on Dec 8, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, it certainly is.
Although ‘Melo and Billups might not be making poor passes if they’re a little fresher.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
*such poor passes.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
What does that matter Procto?
As you like to say: “If your aunt had a ….” well you know the rest.
Felton played outstanding defense all night last night. Except for the few minutes we were forced to suffer through with DJ stinking it up. Bench him Brown, DJ is trash this year! He looked so horrible last night i understand why he got a couple of DNP’s. We would have been better off last night if he had gotten another one!
You are the biggest hater I've ever seen
Ignoring everything he did to point out only 3 assists. I thought Jack played great! But if I was like you I’d ONLY point out how lousy his shooting was at first… Oh but wait, you’re the guy that doesn’t think a SG needs to be able to score.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I don't?
What are you even talking about?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
OK...
I can admit that Felton had a great game last night…
by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Point guards assists last night
Flynn-8
Jennings-5
Rose-10
Mo Williams-8
Evans-9
Nash-8
Baron Davis-11
You know what Felton got that all of those pgs didnt? a WIN. Its not about one man’s numbers. Larry Brown coaches team style ball. The offense isnt going to be ran through one person. When it was raymonds turn he did his thing.
Almost Mr. Mann... but not quite
Larry Brown starting point guards since 1988:
- Johnny Dawkins (San Antonio): 7 apg
- Rod Strickland (San Antonio): 8.2 apg
- Mark Jackson (LA Clippers): 8.8 apg
- Mark Jackson (Indiana): 8.4 apg
- Eric Snow (Philadelphia): 7 apg
- Chauney Billups (Detroit): 6.7 apg
- Stephon Marbury (New York): 7.2 apg
Before Charlotte starting PG average apg: 7.6 apg***
- Raymond Felton (Charlotte): 5.85 apg
I know Felton’s been playing better, but lets not pretend he’s not getting assists because of some ‘Larry Brown philosophy about basketball’ when he’s almost 2 apg worse than the average of Brown’s starting point guards.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok it may not be Larry Brown's history but
with the team we have now, no superstars and a team full of role players, that is the style that works best for us.
Wait Wait... This example is way off
First of all, you can’t compare a complete body of work to Rays 1.25 years.. in progress:
In Eric Snow’s first year under LB he averaged 6.3 apg
Billups 1st year averaged 5.7
Marbury 1st year averaged 6.4
Raymonds 1st year he averaged 6.7
Secondly, according to LB Felton is doing exactly what he asks. He’s not forcing plays and over doing it like he use to. He’s being patient and doing the smart thing when he gets the opportunity.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So if Felton is ‘learning’ Brown’s system his APG should be higher than Brown’s career PG APG average? Right? I mean, he had time to instill this ‘team play’ and ‘offense not led through the PG’ for numerous seasons with others rather than just 1.25 for Felton.
All I did was point out the flaw in saying:
The offense isnt going to be ran through one person.
in reference to Brown’s basketball philosophy. I showed on numerous occasions that the opposit was true.
I still fail to see the 1st year argument, it contradicts your premist that you can’t compare a body of work to 1.25 years. In the three examples you showed those PG’s improved their APG after working with Larry Brown, thus far Felton’s APG has dropped by 1.7 from year 1 to year 2.
Of course the most important thing is winning, but show me an NBA team where having the 21st ranked PG in assists is a benefit, not a detriment. I know people love Felton’s style of play and his loyalty, but I just dont understand justifying low assists like it’s a good thing.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
It's been less than 1/4 of a season
And this year saw a lot more player changes, and things didn’t start off very well. But honestly I am not confident that he’ll ever be much better than his best of 7.4 apg 2 years ago. But it’s irrelevant. I just mentioned it because you guys always mention his assist stats like they are horrible.
What matters is that he is a much smarter player now with better guys around him. He is doing exactly what it takes to win on THIS team… that’s what I care about.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
What do you do in the future if you're the GM?
Do you pay Felton the $10+ million he wants or do you let him walk?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Why does it always come back to that
He’s making what, 4.9 now right? That’s a lot of value for the sake of our arguments.
But if he continues to improve this year and this team makes a playoff run, then they better consider it. 8-9 sounds more like it. But if they can’t get someone really good to replace him, then letting him walk will really hurt this team.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
It always comes back to that because...
Presumably the team will still exist after this season. Raymond Felton’s status after this season is at least as important as what he does this year. Why? For once and all I’ll try to explain that no matter how Ray plays this year the impact on next season is potentially even greater.
1. Felton demands and gets too much money. Now, I’m not talking about what HE thinks he’s worth or what YOU AND I might think he’s worth. I’m talking about what the FO thinks he’s worth. The Admin frets that they spent too much and they dump him off for some second-rate player with a cheaper, but still nasty contract. Let’s call that the Okafor syndrome. No good comes from buyer’s remorse.
2. Felton demands and DOESN’T get the money. He packs his bags and you have to go to some OTHER team’s blog to continue your fandom of the man. This leaves the Cats staring at a MASSIVE hole and the Man Who Would Be PG in Felton’s stead right now is playing like he’s never even attended a game, let alone played in one. We enter next season with Raymond gone, garbage at the point, not a dime or a player to show for it, and a team that right now is drowning in guards has to go shopping for one.
2A. Before you start thinking this means that Raymond has the FO over a barrel think about what the Free Agent crop looks like. I’m pretty sure the Bobcats are betting that Raymond won’t get the kind of cash he wants out in a crowded marketplace. There will be a glut of players available and after the first couple of eye-popping contracts are signed, the owners are going to get gun shy in a hurry. Salary caps fill up quickly and the number of teams that can afford to ignore the luxury penalty isn’t that large. That number diminishes even further when you subtract the teams that are already in decent shape at the point.
3. The Cats make an offer in the $7-8 million range with a couple of incentive bonuses to sweeten the deal and Raymond Felton stays in Charlotte. Every dime we give him is money we can’t afford to pay someone else equally deserving. With the bloated contracts we’re already carrying into next season spare cash is going to be at a premium. So we’re solid in the backcourt, but we have zero bucks to improve at any of the other positions. We can’t do it through the draft because, presumably the team has made the playoffs and lost their first round pick. If for some reason we don’t make the playoffs, we’re not that many wins away from assuring our pick is too low to do us a whole lot of good anyway. Regardless of how that goes, the team as a whole either gets older and worse, or wallows because they are completely unable to do anything to better themselves. All of this happens whether or not Felton is happy. It happens if David’s “Good” Felton signs that contract. It also happens if Felton returns to his old form and it’s “Bad” Felton that signs the deal.
4. The FO decides to exercise the only option that actually will make them a buck – They take advantage of Raymond’s improved play and trade him away in a package for a big swingman that can rotate between PF and Center. Now we’ve traded one hole (at PF) for another (at PG) and gotten ourselves a whole NEW batch of problems for next season. Since guards generally make less than big men, it’s a very real possibility that the FO will decide that this is the lesser of two evils.
This also explains the enormous pressure and attention being poured onto Augustin and the outcry to develop Henderson ASAP.
Many or all of the things I just outlined will be affected by what the Bobcats do trade-wise in the next 4 weeks. But hopefully you can see that the issues surrounding the signing of Raymond Felton are at the very least every bit as important as how well he is playing the game this season.
The reason why so many are making an issue of this is because we want the best possible team this season, next season, and so on.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
This was a post about whether or not he's improved under Larry Brown
It’s the answer to that question that has nothing to do with his next contract. Sure it’s an important subject. But it shouldn’t be used as an excuse, when you can’t come up with a good reason for why you think he’s a bad player.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Who said he was bad?
I certaintly didn’t.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Do a find for "Bad Felton" on this page
you’ll get about 1000 hits
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
lol
Nice try.
People have been saying there’s a duality to Felton’s game. That a ‘good Felton’ and a ‘bad Felton’ exist. This is used to typify his inconsistent play.
No one is saying he is a bad player. Very different.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
So... the bad Felton personality is not a bad player?
And all the arguments to prove how bad “bad Felton” mean what?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
That he is inconsistent.
Saying there’s a ‘good Felton’ and a ‘bad Felton’ indicates that he has good games, and bad GAMES not that Felton is inherently a bad PLAYER.
You asserted that people were saying Felton was a ‘bad player’. No one has said that, people said there is a ‘bad Felton’ player, but ultimately that is balanced with ‘good Felton’
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
I remember Procton using the words horrible and pitiful
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
In relation to Felton’s assists last night, and this season.
Not in relation to Felton to player.
Hit CTRL+F then search those words. You’ll have your answer
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
If you don't think using the word horrible and pitiful
When describing anything about Felton’s performance last night is ridiculous, then it is pointless for me to even try to argue his case.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
When describing his playmaking and distributing last night...
using any word other than pitiful or horrible is what’s pointless.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
to whom are you referring?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
sigh
James the Aussie questioned – what do you do in the future if you’re GM? He then asked if you’d pay Felton $10 million or let him walk.
southtunnel (that would be you) resplied under the header “WHY does it always come down to that” and in the body said that 8 to 9 million sounded more like it.
My reply was an attempt to logically explain why everything keeps coming back to the contract question – the subject of James’ post AND your response.
Excuse me for following the thread, applying logic, or attempting to provide a legitimate answer to the question.
It won’t happen again. Didn’t mean to step into the ongoing efforts to transform “Rufus on FIre” to Raymond Felton is God and You MUST BOW DOWN BEFORE HIM.
By all means please go back to the endless “nobody is saying Felton ia playing poorly” “Stop saying Felton is playing poorly!” argument. It’s all just so fascinating.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“Didn’t mean to step into the ongoing efforts to transform "Rufus on FIre" to Raymond Felton is God and You MUST BOW DOWN BEFORE HIM.”
Nobody says that,. has said that, or would say that. However, a large percentage of the regulars on here go to great lengths to bad mouth Raymond Felton at every opportunity. Whether he plays good, bad, or not at all, it is guraunteed that Procto will speak negatively of him. The blog manager can NOT mention him without speaking badly about him as well. It is pretty ridiculous.
If you don't like it here...
It’s exceptionally easy to start your own website these days. I’m sure you can start the Ray Felton for All-NBA site; it’s probably not taken.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
Once again...
nobody says that Felton is an All-Star or all NBA.
Felton just doesn’t deserve all of the grief he catches form you and others on this site.
It is the mucus that binds us
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Re: #3
If Felton wouldn’t accept that deal this summer, when far fewer teams were interested and able to match it, why would he do so next summer when tons of teams will have way more money to pick him up?
And you still have yet to explain why you think Henderson can play point guard. He can’t, and he won’t develop the ability to.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
I was just trying to outline every possible option
Although I didn’t mention Henderson in that post you are right. You asked me the question before and I never did provide an answer.
As I’ve said, I’m a soccer coach. If you’ll pardon some momentary hubris, I’m a damned good one. In the spring I’ll be coaching my 21st season and my second in a wheelchair. As long as a player hasn’t played a position long enough to be set in the way they see the field in transition I can teach them a new position within a season. In general it akes about 3 seasons for a player to be so set in their field view that they can’t be crosstrained.
If my ignorance regarding basketball coaching results in liberal egg splashing on my face we can both have a good laugh. I saw Henderson as already having guard experience and a knowledge of the plays that are being called. I was working under the belief that as a backcourt athlete he could be trained by the coaches during practices to play some point. If he shows an affinity for it, we rotate him into that spot where it’s unlikely he’ll play any worse than Augustin has thus far this season. Serious questions – has Henderson been tried at point in the past? Is it really that difficult to cross train someone from SG to playing point on the other side of the offense? Or does it only work in reverse, with the pointman able to transition over to the sg slot ? As I said, I’m ignorant about training hoops players and my assumption may be absurd. It isn’t a height issue. Both positions have to be skilled at ball rotation and passing and both need to stay open as the clock winds down so they are an available late-clock option if the defense foils the called play. I thought it might involve some work and effort, but I didn’t think it was something undoable.
(Should I laugh at my stupidity now, or am I making a bit of sense?)
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Henderson has never played the point.
He hasn’t directed an offense, he hasn’t been the primary ball-handler, he just hasn’t done that stuff. He doesn’t really have the ballhandling abilities, the court vision, or the general passing skill to pull it off, and his on-court attitude and demeanor have never really been to distribute for others either. With tons of talent around him at Duke, he never exceeded 2.5 APG or a 1.14 A:TO ratio (he’s actually exceeding that mark this year with a 1.25, which has surprised me, although it doesn’t mean a ton with the situations he’s seen his minutes.) His career marks in those categories in college were only 1.8 and .95 (yes, he had more turnovers than assists for his college career.) Those kind of numbers (and the way he plays, having watched a lot of him over his three years at Duke) simply don’t lend themselves to a guy playing lead guard, unless it’s a very short-term emergency.
I do appreciate your ideas, and it would seem like a relatively simple thing to learn to run plays and find open teammates, but it’s a skill (as we’ve seen Felton very slowly pick up and perhaps just now figure out.) If you ever got a chance to watch Brevin Knight, he was a guy who predicated his whole offensive game on doing absolutely nothing more than feeding teammates when they were in a position to score, only shooting when was absolutely necessary. That had something to do with the fact that he wasn’t a good shooter or all-around offensive player, but it was also just the way he was wired. Steve Nash and Chris Paul are players that usually look to pass first despite the fact that they have better offensive capabilities. Henderson, though, isn’t a guy who sees the basket as a means to an end. He sees it as a personal challenge to put the ball in the net, a mindset somebody can possess even if they don’t dominate the ball and shoot every time they have it.
PS: You mentioned the “outcry to develop Henderson” in that post, and it seemed like you were relating said outcry to his ability to help our potential PG hole if Felton and Augustin are both gone before Opening Night ’10.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 4:12 AM EST up reply actions
Okay
Your answer makes a lot of sense. I only got into college ball when Duncan was over at Wake because I ran a business fairly close to the campus and got to know some of the coaching team (as well as Tim’s dad, who was one of my regular customers whenever he came to visit). I grew up in a pro-only environment. The whole Carolina/Duke thing is something I can understant intellectually, but have no emotional stake in whatsoever. Likewise, my coaching relationships soccer-wise are with the coaches of the Wake Forest women’s team although I do speak to recruiters from Duke’s soccer organization from time to time.
The point is, I know very little about college stats and have seen very little college ball.
Regarding my “develop Henderson” comment, it was more along the lines of being able to free Augustin to play exclusively at point next year if Felton is gone.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 10, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Aha...
But regardless of Henderson’s development, Augustin should never be playing anywhere but PG.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Watch Duke alot...
Criticize UNC’s championship winning point guard…
Criticize LB and his UNC past…
I knew something was up the way you constantly bash UNC products, and never recognize when they do well. It all makes sense now.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
...because UNC products have so frequently been great contributors to Bobcats success.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
Watches Duke a lot
Criticize UNC’s championship winning point guard…
Criticize LB and his UNC past…
I knew something was up the way you constantly bash UNC products, and never recognize when they do well. It all makes sense now.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
They ARE horrible.
He’s in the bottom third of the league among starting point guards.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yet his career avg would put him at 7th
And according to every other season except one, it will go up! And then of course he is 8th amongst all guards in steals… But I’m sure you only want to amplify the negatives to make your point, right?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Honestly, steals are pretty irrelevant to the discussion of how good a PG he is.
Iverson always leads the league in steals. Is he a great defender?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Everythings irrelevant when it hurts your case
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
No, you're right.
Because of his standing in the NBA’s top five in steals, Trevor Ariza is among the best players in the NBA. And Courtney Lee is likely to make the All-Star Game, given he’s 8th in the league.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
My apologies, but this threads got my head spinning now
We’ll have to pick it up again later. Hopefully find a little more common ground before then.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I'm just trying to get on your side, man.
You seem to have implied that steals define how good a player is.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
His 1st year argument doesnt condradict
It shows that Felton is on pace to be w/ the others that you listed. Felton should improve his apg with more time under LB. Also, there is no flaw in " The offense isnt going to be ran through one person". The offense will be ran through Felton, Jackson, and Diaw. The flaw was I said LB “coaches” team style ball. I shouldve said “is teaching” team style ball. This shouldnt of even been an issue as the point I was trying to make is Felton got a win, while others who had more assists did not.
Feltons drop from year one to year two under LB in assists is most likely an aberration since he averages 6.6 for his career. Its the same argument you stated about DJ Augustin’s slump of 20 games.
No, he's not on pace.
None of those other players had a second year slump. So I fail to see how he’s on pace for a multi year improvement.
I understand what you said about last night, but lets not kid ourselves.. the point guards you mentioned are leading teams with a combined record of 67-77 (0.465) we’re at 9-11 (0.450) in the long term, those teams win more than we do, they just didn’t for one night.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How can there be a 2nd year slump, when there hasn't been a 2nd year?
His assists went down LBs first year, because he was learning a new, very complicated system, under a very demanding coach. And LBs not trying to make Feltons stat sheet look good anyways. He’s taking the skill he’s already displayed at times, and teaching him how to be smart about it. That means doing what it takes at the right time, not just pounding your stats.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
So the prevailing wisdom is you can’t look at the 20 games of 2009-10 to talk about his dip in APG, but you can use it to justify his improvement in FG% and reduction in TO?
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Assuming Brown’s system was so alien and complicated wouldn’t Augustin have almost no production at the position? After all, he hadn’t benefited from 3 years of NBA play like Felton, he was a rookie.
Yet, when Augustin started at point guard 7 times last season when Felton was injured he averaged 7.1 apg.
I’m not trashing Felton, by any means. Like I’ve said numerous time he’s been great recently. However, his passing production has dropped dramatically and I think people are putting too much stock in Felton for being the difference maker in the Bobcats fortunes and not enough in Stephen Jackson who ended up being the glue that brought it all together.
I still maintain that Augustin is the better player, and when he comes out of this slump I think we’ll see it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
I never said anything about his 2009-10 FG% or turn overs
I used them to make points about the present. You’re the one that keeps mentioning his 2nd year.
And Augustin started 12 games last year, and in those 12 he averaged 5.58 apg. For that matter in the 1st month of games I quickly found a 7 game stretch where Raymond averaged 8.42. But this type of number twisting misses the point.
All Augustins had to do is take open shots, and occasionally play point. And he proved that when he’s not scared he is a better shooter than Felton… but he’s proven nothing else, that’s why LBs stuck with Raymond.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Right now, Raymond is the lesser of two evils. I fully understand that.
I’ve never argued that Augustin should be starting over Felton, I have been arguing that Augustin should be getting Flip Murray’s minutes though.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
So... he's not "bad", he's "evil"
Oh… and I thought you didn’t like the guy.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Surely you are familiar enough with the English language to understand that there is a colloquial saying 'The lesser of two evils'
I don’t know why you’re trying to play a game of semantics.
I just hope you’re being sarcastic.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps we'd be better off saying
“the evil of two lessers?”
James, all due respect my friend, but there is no point to trying to reason any further on this thread. It’s all becoming white noise.
I think it’s time to label the entire argument with another colloquialism:
Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I want to agree with you about him getting Murray's minutes
But like last night, at least Murray will eventually hit a couple shots. DJ is really a liability right now.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Which skill is that?
Playing tons of minutes and getting assists by default?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
the difference is .465 and .450 is miniscule and statistically irrelavent
hardly a difference at all. Thos teams BARELY win more than the Cats this season
Pick your poison.
Flynn, Evans and Jennings are all rookie’s on terrible teams.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Is it?
.015 is the difference of a game in the NBA. I wonder if you’ll say it’s miniscule and statistically irrelevant if we miss the playoffs by a game, and that we should just get a ticket anyway.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Which loyalty is that?
He refused to sign a very reasonable contract extension from the “only team he ever wants to play for.”
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
So… you object to me calling him Good Felton in comparison to the first four years of his career? Is it because you object to acknowledgment that he wasn’t a good player in those years, or what? For his entire career, pretty much, Jackson’s been the better player and hasn’t really changed from his established level of play while with the Bobcats. The whole point of using Good Felton/Bad Felton is to praise Ray for this transformation while maintaining caution that it’s just a streak and not a real, more permanent, change in behavior.
by David A. Arnott on Dec 9, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
David
I’ve only been here since the start of this season and I don’t always agree with everything you say. Hell, I don’t always wind up agreeing with everything I say! But it’s pretty damn clear that you know this game and love this team. Anyone who would imply that you would actually root AGAINST a Bobcat that was giving even half an effort on the court isn’t worth the time it took you to type the response.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For the record
It seems that Raymond can’t be mentioned without also digging up something negative about him. However I thought the analysis of him above was spot on.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I’ll throw it out there: I’m unconvinced his good play in the past couple weeks or so is for real, and it’ll take a lot more to be convinced that he’s truly changed. Moving forward, he’s more likely to be the frustratingly inefficient guy he was for four years than the guy he’s been the past two weeks. This is hardly controversial.
by David A. Arnott on Dec 9, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How can good play not be for real?
That’s an extremely biased way to phrase it. It says that no matter what the guys does I will still discredit it.
But one things for sure… that he has the ability to play great. To think that LB can’t help him be more consistent is just flat out pessimistic. And believe me, I know pessimistic!
Either that or you are a Duke fan.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
You can have a good streak as long as you can have a bad streak
Do you think he’s worth $10mil a year?
by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Salary has nothing to do with it.
That’s a discussion for after the season. I think they are ALL overpaid anyways. But we are talking about how his performance effects this team.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I get what David's saying, and I'm a Duke fan.
But think about another player who fits this catagory: J.J Redick. Great college player, but did squat his first three years in the league. He was inconsistent, was a poor defender, and a below average player in general, similar to the way Felton had been playing early in his career. Then only over the course of last season and the playoffs did JJ start to become a more consistent player and an average defender. Now he is continuing to be a solid roatation guy and has more or less proven himself worthwhile for the Magic.
But I can imagine that Magic fans were in the same place we were all of last year and into the playoffs. They were probably thinking as some of us are now, “I’m really happy this guy is finally putting it together, I just hope it lasts.”
If anything David and others of us who make the same Good/Bad Felton references are merely bracing ourselves in case Felton’s efficient and quality play doesn’t last, or is a “streak.” I imagine Magic fans are still holding their breath when JJ Redick is in the game at times, still not quite sure if he’s all the way there.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
by Aisander D on Dec 9, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Explain to me which year this myth of bad Felton existed?
A career apg of 6.6 is not bad. His FG% overall has increased since his first year. The guys numbers any given year are not All-Star level… but they are far from bad.
I don’t think he’ll ever be 10+ apg or 20+ ppg… but I DO believe he will be more consistent. It is obvious to anyone who is not biased that he is being more patient, taking smarter shots and waiting for his opportunities.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I agree he is playing well right now...
But I think you’re looking at the wrong statistics. His career numbers are fine and good, but what we’re talking about is playing efficiently within the offense, and not taking poor shots and dribbling out the shot clock. So far this season, Felton has been playing the most efficient ball of his NBA career. His FG% (.431) and 3P% (.395) are the highest in his career, all while taking thew fewest shots per game of his career (10.8 FG attempts per game and 1.9 3P attempts per game). So all of that together means that Felton is taking fewer shots and making more shots, all while maintaining his A/TO ratio.
In seasons past, Felton has racked up decent assist numbers, but also took bad shots, and too many shots. So sure he scored points, and dolled out assists, but he was an inefficient player and the offense suffered because of it. Hence “Bad Felton.”
I give him full credit for becoming a much more efficient and fun to watch player this year, I think some of us are just concerned that he’ll slip back into old habits. But I hope he has turned the corner and will remain an efficient player. Hence “Good Felton.”
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
Finally a sensable disagreement!
And that makes total sense. Felton is not a scorer. But he’s constantly been put in the situation to score or lose, because nobody else could. That’s not the case now and he’s learning to rely on others and only make the smart plays.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sure they could!
Even when no less a capable offensive player than Jason Richardson, a three-time 20+ PPG scorer, was on the team, Felton still tried to dominate the offense.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
His 6.6 APG is mediocre.
He’s been given the opportunity to play huge minutes and start since he arrived in the NBA.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Amen South tunnel
This line form you is the MOST telling:
“It is obvious to anyone who is not biased that he is being more patient, taking smarter shots and waiting for his opportunities.”
The key word in that sentence is BIASED. Many of the folks on here are very much biased and simply do not like Raymond Felton. They don’t really want Raymond to succeed. It’s pretty sad actually.
Thanks Dude
It’s good to hear after getting triple teamed every time I say anything remotely positive about Felton.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
You're right.
And you’re clearly, on the other hand a very UNbiased observer of Felton and his game. You have no interest in his success whatsoever. Which is pretty sad in and of itself.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
If you want to shoot straight Proc
You are definitely the most biased, closed minded person on here.
I disagree with others, like James and OurDaywilcome, but at least occasionally we can step back and see where we are coming from. But you leave no room for anything but all out confrontation.
And when I try to ask you something serious, you usually don’t even respond.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sort of how nobody responded to my very reasonable (and beneficial) trade idea?
I guess it’s your bias and closed-mindedness shining through.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
All of these arguments are false....
because I don’t agree with them.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
LOLz.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 4:12 AM EST up reply actions
You know it's true Proc
Many people have commented the same thing to you… On at least 3 blogs that I have read. When are you going to start listening to others?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
by southtunnel on Dec 10, 2009 10:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
About the same time others have better ideas than me.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Do you really think you have better ideas than everyone else?
Isn’t that extremely arrogant?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Not when it's true.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
Why do YOU keep bringing Duke into it?
To deny the fact that this franchise—which has employed at various times (in no particular order) Michael Jordan, Jeff McInnis, Sean May, Larry Brown, Ray Felton, Jason Capel, Buzz Peterson, and David Noel—favors UNC alumni and associates would be ridiculous. And it’s often cost this team wins and competitiveness.
Oh, and P.S.:
Most any NBA player has the ability to “play great.” That’s why they’re in the NBA! To expect that from a top five pick who expects $9-10 million a season is hardly unreasonable.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
So NOW we're getting somewhere
Where’d you go to school Proc? Or wh oyou a fan of, collegiate level?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I appreciate that south
I do try to make fair assessments. Felton’s play has been surprising and very welcome. I’m actually pulling for him. Before the season started I made one of my first comments at this site. It was that I thought DJ could wind up as the team MVP based on how he developed toward the end of last season. I still believe he can turn around his hideous play but there are two sentences that I think best sum up the entire situation regarding these 2 men:
1. Each game that the DJ nightmare continues increases the size of the question mark regarding his reliability whenever he DOES turn it around.
2. Each game that Felton’s inspired play continues shrinks the size of the question mark regarding whether this is a streak or a player truly coming into his own.
One good night from Deej won’t reverse the previous weeks of ghastly performance and one bad night from Raymond won’t erase the contribution he’s made in previous weeks either. The answer to both issues is found in consistency over several months of evaluation. Felton’s play of late has been unexpected and incredible. Augustin’s play of late has been unexpected and nauseating. Are these situations permanent? Check back with me in February. Right now I’m just cheering about one and groaning about the other.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with Bcat2.0
Felton is and always has been good felton. He has hot and cold streaks but so do all NBA players.
Career numbers
13.5 ppg
6.6 apg
.401 FG%
1.4 spg
2.6 TOpg
Last 10 games
12.4 ppg
4.9 apg
.516 FG%
2.5 spg
1.4 TOpg
It looks like the haters expect Felton to shoot an unrealistic % for him to be “good” Felton. It is very unlikely that any guard shoots .516% from the field on a consistent basis. His steals have gone up the past few years, 1.8pg last year, and he will continue to have 2plus steals regularly. The turnovers are down one due to the Jackson effect. Jackson and Diaw will share the responibility of controlling the ball. So while hes up in some categories, hes down in others, therefore he is still the same reliable Felton.
Also David, ever since the NY game when Felton had a near triple double and he was placed in the Bad column, it does seem like you have a bias against Felton. Also, you advocate for Augustin to start quite regularly. These are your opinions and thats fine. Every fan seems to have a player that they done like but it does seem like your good felton/bad felton has run its course due to the fact that Felton has been consistent of late and the Felton haters are the minority of Bobcat fans.
So shooting better than 40% is unrealistic?
Gees, sorry for us. It’s also cute you’ve chosen to ignore the fact that he’s cut his turnovers by nearly FIFTY PERCENT! Or is not turning the ball over three times a game also “unrealistic?”
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
Good win against a quality opponent.
But, as Jeff Capel noted, they were in among the worst positions any team can be to win a game: second night of a back-to-back in the middle of a three-game road trip. Again, though, good effort for the Bobbies to pull away in a game that was very hard-fought.
Important things:
- Us winning the 3PT battle (6-14—shockingly keyed by Felton and Murray—compared to their 2-16.) We don’t have to be great in our long-range shooting, but if we can outdo our opponents, that’s something.
- Us winning the free throw battle. Not a surprise to see ’Melo get 11 trips to the line, but a little surprising to see him send Gerald there for the same number, a little more surprising to see Jackson get 9, but totally shocking to see Mohammed get 10 freebies. Some of it was ticky-tack fouls and their makeup calls on the other end, but getting guys to the basket, drawing fouls, and making the shots is one of those Larry Brown tenets that finally worked for us (as opposed to things like never playing young players and demanding trades for awful centers.)
- Stephen Jackson did what Stephen Jackson does. The numbers aren’t great, but he made the offense work tonight.
- Tyson Chandler is an unbelievably bad basketball player. Gerald Wallace is a freakishly good basketball player. No further commentary required.
- The Nuggets really missed Kenyon Martin’s toughness inside on both ends. They got stomped on the boards, and couldn’t stop us on penetration.
- Finally, if Diaw is using 12 possessions (10 shots, 1 ast., 1 TO) and only producing 9 points from his efforts, I’d say that has a pretty negative effect on the team.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
Point 2 is very, very important.
Free throws have been an achilles heel. We get to the line, but do nothing with it. Maybe the Jeff Capel free throw school still deserves some funding.
Can we just go ahead and start Nazr? I fail to see the use of starting Chandler only to have him be benched 5 mins later after he racks up fouls. He’d be much more useful as an energy guy off the bench than where he’s at right now.
At this point I’m in favor of benching Diaw for Derrick Brown. He’s consistent, not spectacular, but consistent… and that’s all we need at the position.
Finally, I’m not like the Carolina Panthers syndrome that’s manifested itself on the Bobcats. What I mean by this is that the Bobcats play up and play down to their competition. There is no reason we should be able to beat the Cavs and Nuggets but not demolish a team like the Nets. I love that we rise to the occasion, but we don’t need to fall to it also.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
With you on Chandler...
But there are some caveats. First, Mohammed just doesn’t hold up if you’re gonna try and play him for 30 minutes a night. Second, while you and I are smart enough to know that Chandler’s salary is a sunk cost, the front office decision-makers aren’t necessarily willing to stomach his cost coming off the bench. Doesn’t make it right, but it’s something.
Diaw, though, is different than Chandler. We know he has the potential to outproduce Brown, he just hasn’t been doing it. Can’t say that about Chandler vs. Mohammed.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
I still say play the undersized Brown and deal with the repercussions and substitute as needed
by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Ray is playing very efficient!
six steals is more than respectable. It’s awesome! Raymond is playing at a high level over the last 4 or 5 games. He is making good decisions and not turning the ball over. Most notably, he is shooting well. I think credit is due so I will give it as I also give credit to Gerald Wallace, and Stephen Jackson as well. Let’s hope the team will continue to be successful. This was a great team effort.
+1, But unfortunately it'll never be enough for the Ray-haters
This week people have complained comparing him to AllStars… even though they don’t put such lofty expectations on other players. And the sad thing is that as soon as he has a bad game, they’ll be back to calling him “Bad” Felton… ignoring everything he’s done as of late.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
That's because other players don't demand those expectations.
When you reject an $8 mil a year contract extension, you get judged like a guy who gets paid $10 mil a year. When you get drafted 5th overall, you get judged like a guy who’s a top 5 pick. And yeah, when he goes back to the kind of player he’s been over the last THREE HUNDRED games, we’ll probably assume these few weeks were the exception. How crazy.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
How about being a 9th pick, and not even being able to get on the court?
Since Raymonds playing well you can’t use that as your critique, so you move to his contract… nice.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He's had good games lately
But it isn’t wrong to lean towards “Bad Felton”
I hope and pray that “Good Felton” is emerging because he has a little bit of a supporting cast.
I say he’ll get better if he gets a real PF…
I’ll always cringe when he pulls up for a jumper…
At least I will until about mid January.
If he keeps his games up like he is now come February/March, I’d offer an $8mil 3 year contract…but no more than that.
by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
It is wrong because it isn't true
Averaging 6.6 assists, 13.5 points, 1.4 steals and 2.2 turn overs throughout your career isn’t great… but it isn’t bad at all! Chris Paul, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash have all averaged more TOs in their careers than Felton. Nash averages less steals as well. They average a few more assists… but they are friggin All-Stars!
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
It is true.
Raw numbers are pretty irrelevant when he’s on the court almost the entire game (as he has been throughout his career.) Take a look at his rate stats, and he’s mediocre at best. “A few more assists” means 4-8 more points for a team over the course of every single game. Given how awful Felton is as a shooter and how bad the offense has historically been for this team, shouldn’t that be his focus?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
But you like to base things on his1st 4 years
An assists means somebody finished on the other end, and he never had many guys that could do that.
And if you were honest, you would also admit that now, he spends most of his minutes with Diaw and Jackson… 2 unselfish guys who very often pass instead of taking shots dished to them. Half of his passes to Jack wind up going to Chandlers bricks. So unless Wallace cuts to the backet every time Felton has the ball, then it’ll be tough to rack up assists with this crew.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
tough to rack up assists with this crew
If Brevin Knight can average 9 apg with Gerald Wallace, Okafor, Primoz Brezec and Kareem Rush I’m pretty sure Felton can find a way.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nope.
It’s that Felton’s so limited by how bad his teammates are. Everybody knows Kareem Rush was a GREAT player.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
You guys were raving about Jacksons passing abilities
Now your comparing it to Primoz Brezecs?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
southtunnel... what are you even talking about any more?
You said:
So unless Wallace cuts to the backet every time Felton has the ball, then it’ll be tough to rack up assists with this crew.
I said
If Brevin Knight can average 9 apg with Gerald Wallace, Okafor, Primoz Brezec and Kareem Rush I’m pretty sure Felton can find a way.
Not sure why it’s so difficult.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
And in the same block I said
he spends most of his minutes with Diaw and Jackson… 2 unselfish guys who very often pass instead of taking shots dished to them
which you guys went on to compare to whomever you could come up with… which like Proc said, is completely irrelevant
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I know you are just trying to push my buttons now
I know you guys don’t hate Felton as much as what you are trying to portray.
Seriously though, Where did you and Procton go to school at?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
That’s it… I’m out.
I should have listened to ourdaywillcome sooner.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions
He had a post player who ranked 4th in the NBA in FG% last year.
He chose to feed him the ball so little, however, that he had a career low in FGAs and barely averaged double-figures in scoring.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
No, no, I remember multiple analysts and Brown complaining
that Okafor wouldn’t finish in the post… they kept telling him if he’d go strong to the basket more, he’d be star.
Forget it. You guys are just pulling crap out of nowhere now, because you don’t like Felton. I don’t think you even believe what you are saying… I think at this point you are just trying to agitate me. Touche
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
"Pulling crap out of nowhere?"
Okafor’s numbers are in any NBA stat database you care to look at.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
We already offered $8 mil for five years.
He turned it down. no reason to think yours will work.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Felton's been allowed to "get on the court" his entire career.
That this organization has pampered him and not done the same has much to do with the perceived “fan draw” of having a UNC player do well as anything. DJ doesn’tn have that going for him, and he certainly can’t control that. When you’re a former top five pick and you’re in your fifth year, yeah, you’re supposed to be an above-average player. Sorry if you think he’s show that he is after six games of doing well.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
On Stephen Jackson
I knew Stephen Jackson could score before he got here, but wow, what a passer. He had 25 points and six assists Tuesday, but as Larry Brown pointed out, it would have been a dozen assists had the Bobcats’ big men more often finished down low.
—Scott Fowler of the Observer:
“He got six assists, and he could have had 12 if our people don’t (drop) the ball. His execution isn’t always perfect, but his thought is perfect.’’
—Larry Brown
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
Oh ,and...
I’ve written a lot the past few weeks about Stephen Jackson’s wide skill set. This was the best example yet of all the things he can do. There’s nothing he’s great at, but there’s also nothing he’s deficient at.
When I was interviewing Michael Jordan for that long profile of Jackson in Tuesday’s Observer, I told him the thing Larry Bird liked best about Jackson was his versatility. Jordan agreed, saying there might not be 20 players in the league who is as proficient at so many different basketball skills.
—Rick Bonnell of the Observer.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Chandler has hands of stone
I haven’t seen him catch 1 pass without bobbling it first…which equated to about 20 missed EASY points…
by andrewlail76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Not only do him and DJ look just alike… in the face that is. But they also suck just alike. Both look clueless out there.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sad...
That you’re comparing a second-year player who’s not even getting two mil this season with a ninth-year vet who’s getting seven times that. Particularly given that one of them has been allowed to start every game he’s suited up for and the other has been benched entirely when he hits a 15-game slump.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Thank goodness we have him instead of Okafor, though.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Why do you only quote LB when he supports your guy?
Stephen Jackson was great, as was Raymond… Take your medicine Procton
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
What are you talking about?
I quoted him because Jackson has been attacked unmercifully of late. And I don’t even particularly like him.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Then why have you been defending him so aggresively?
I’d honestly like to hear what you REALLY think about Jackson then.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I think he's a decent player who fit many of the team's pre-trade needs.
I’ve said that before. What’s so hard to understand?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
A few observations
Nice W.
I think most of us thought we had a chance to snag one of these Western Conference games this week (along with a fear we’d drop at least one next week against much weaker opposition) but I for one am pleasantly surprised that it was the Nuggets that fell prey to us. I can’t help myself. The little kid in me is jumping up and down and wondering if we’ll make it two in a row Friday in Texas. These guys have let me down so many times I should know better, but that little kid just won’t shut up.
Mr. Procton said it best. Tyson Chandler is an unbelievably bad basketball player. Dear Coach Brown – I don’t care about age or any other excuses. Nobody has worked harder to earn a starter slot than Nazr. How many times does the man have to crush your starter’s numbers before you do the right thing? Maybe, just maybe, if you put Chandler out there against the second unit of our opponents he’ll be better at keeping his hands to himself and attempt a few shots that don’t begin with a pass to him at 9 feet in the air. The only time your current starting center has put up anything resembling respectable numbers has been when he’s avoided foul trouble. After a couple of reasonable games, he has, yea verily, backslided into sin. He needs a healin’. I believe, hah GLORY ah believe that a layin’ on of hands by slower second string players will cause the spirit to move within him. What the hell, he can’t get any worse.
Also Mr. Brown, if it isn’t too much trouble, please elevate your instruction of your favorite pupil to the next level. Raymond Felton has made remarkable progress and I’m willing to credit your astute tutelage with his impressive reversal of fortune. His turnover problem has vanished, his court vision has appeared, and his shot selection has improved. There is but one thing missing, but it’s what we folks ‘round these parts call a biggun. Being as you’re a born New Yawker let me put it this way; “Damn man, teach him how the eff to pass the effin’ ball so he gets some effin’ assists!” A good point guard – a pg playing at Ray’s current level in all other ways – should rack up a solid half-dozen assists a game at minimum. If he can pick up that one stat while maintaining his present excellence I can actually seeing us negotiating with him in the $7-$8 millioin range. He’ll be earning it. Oh, and let’s not unload him to another team just yet. Let’s see how long he can keep this up. I don’t want to send him packing just to see him hit his peak in 2 years. He’s making this a mighty interesting run. Don’t pin a “C” on his uni, but let the man keep doing his thing.
Regardless of what happens to this team for the remainder of the season, they’ve already managed to give me more exciting games than they have in any other year – including last season’s failed race to the 8 seed.
We tried negotiating with him in the $7-8 million range.
He turned down an offer similar to Marvin Williams’, which came in at five years and $37.5 million guaranteed, with an opportunity to go to $43 million with incentives.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
When your team wins like that....
Your SG has 6 assists
Your team hits 31 FT’s
Your PG is 6-7 FG 2-2 3P & 6 steals
You people still want to complain about Raymond?!?!?!?!?
He didn’t have to get 10 assists for the win!!! DID NOT HAVE TO!!!!!! When they are winning, the Cats don’t play a style of ball where the PG dominates the ball. Why do y’all insist on talking bad about Felton even when he play outstanding?
He only had 3 assists? SO THE EFF WHAT?!?!?!?!? He had 6 steals and the Cats won!
None of those factors are reasonable to rely on.
They’re not going to happen every night. Having a point guard who actually considers and is capable of distributing the balls seems like something that could.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
My "complaints" about Raymond
Let’s see… what did I say…
Raymond Felton has made remarkable progress…
his impressive reversal of fortune
His turnover problem has vanished, his court vision has appeared, and his shot selection has improved.
If he can pick up that one stat while maintaining his present excellence
let’s not unload him to another team
He’s making this a mighty interesting run
My GOD! How could I be such a cruel hater!
All I did – in the midst of MASSIVE praise – was humorously suggest that LB help Raymond pick up his assists.
Gimme a break. This is getting ridiculous.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
They love their boy.
What was it? Carolina blue forever?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Dude, I'm an ABC'er (any but Carolina) untill the NCAA tourney
I am an App St Mountaineer and an NC ST. Wolfpacker (the two schools i actually attended).
Procto, just because you are caught up in that Duke/UNC bs doesn’t mean we all are.
Ourday, when did i use the word "hater"?
And when did i say anything to you specifically?
You did say this:
“"Damn man, teach him how the eff to pass the effin’ ball so he gets some effin’ assists!" A good point guard – a pg playing at Ray’s current level in all other ways – should rack up a solid half-dozen assists a game at minimum…”
And i replied to your post
That Felton doesn’t NEED to be racking up huge assists number for the Bobcats to be successful.
As you said
You replied to MY post – that’s referring to me specifically.
You said “you people” thereby lumping me in with the people complaining about Felton.
And 1/2 dozen assists is not a HUGE assist number for a good starting point guard. It’s a reasonable expectation.
Even though you used the term “y’all” you were still referring to a specific point that I made in MY post and quoted me in trying to say you didn’t say anything TO me.
I repeat. Gimme a break. If you mean David or Procto then reply to them instead of using me by proxy. That’s all I’m asking. Fair enough? No harm, no offense, no foul.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
And I'm not Procto
SO don’t get all snippy with me. Everybody isn’t trying to be an ass and bait you into an argument (like Procto does). Don’t be so defensive.
How would Raymond having more assists last night have helped the Bobcats win?
They won anyway, right? Maybe if DJ hadn’t wasted 11 of Felton’s minutes, Raymond would have had 5 assists.
Okay
If Felton had played the extra 11 minutes he would have been on the court for 47 minutes – just pointing that out. The minutes that DJ wasted should have gone to Henderson and I hope to God that in the future they do.
I ended my post with “no harm, no offense, no foul.”
If I decide to get snippy or defensive it won’t be with that phrase.
Chill dudeman. I’m not a windmill worth tilting at.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Almost.
Almost the ridiculously reasonable number requested. Despite the fact that he’s the only playmaking PG who ever gets a chance to play for the team.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not even talking about you, ODWC
I am also a huge Bobcats fan. And i am tired of the constant Felton bashing by many of the rufus regulars —specifically David and Procto. Even in the face of awesome play by the the whole team, these two can always find something about Raymond to complain about.
True that but
Every freshman economics course teaches about what the market will bear. The dude says he wants to stay in Charlotte. If somebody else is stupid enough to offer him $10 million too bad, so sad and bye-bye. I think the amount we’re tossing here is more than respectable. Assuming he continues at his present level – or improves a bit more – I think $7-8 is a good ceiling. Good guards aren’t so rare that there will be many takers on the numbers he’s looking for. If he stays inflexible he’s going to find himself trying to convince the team he gets traded to instead of being southtunnel’s Bobcats Leader dujour.
"He'll never be a great offensive player..."
Thank you, Nostradamus.
Give Ray credit. As much as you love DJ, he will not give you wins.
Neither does Felton.
Let’s take a look at his win share numbers. It’s a statistic designed to measure just such assertions.
09-10: 3rd in minutes, 4th in win shares (behind Mohammed!)
08-09: 1st in minutes, 4th in win shares (behind Wallace, Okafor, and yes, DJ AUGUSTIN!, who was 5th in minutes)
07-08: 2nd in minutes, 4th in win shares (behind Wallace and Okafor)
06-07: 1st in minutes, 6th in win shares (behind Wallace, Okafor, Matt Carroll, Derek Anderson, and Walter Herrmann)
05-06: 1st in minutes, 6th in win shares (behind Wallace, Brevin Knight, Primoz Brezec, Jumaine Jones, and Carroll)
So we’re talking about a guy, who despite constantly getting the lion’s share of minutes rarely does anything commensurate to it when talking about actual wins.
And for the uninitiated, here’s the win shares explanation.
Oh, and you’re right to have had David draw your ire. How dare we expect a top five pick in the draft to remain a sub-par offensive player throughout his career?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Just curious
Do you think DJ should be starting over him right now?
Absolutely not.
I just don’t think there is any way Felton is the long-term answer for this team, particularly at the $9-10 million a year he wants.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions
Personally
I think we should be starting DJ over CHANDLER right now.
A couple of offensive charges from a 7 footer might knocks his game back into him and at the offensive end he can only do a point or two worse than Chandler per shift.
Felton, Wallace and Jackson are becoming the pillars of this team
If Raymond could get a few more assists, Jackson a higher FG%, and Wallace a little more accurate jumpshot… then the 3 of them could be tough for anyone to stop. My biggest concern is having to worry about all 3 of them always playing well at the same time.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I think if other players are willing to step up we don’t need them ‘always playing well at the same time’.
Nazr has stepped up big time, but even then 4 players does not a team make.
We need Diaw, Chandler, Flip and DJ to find their game, fast. Then we don’t need to expect any production out of Henderson or Brown and this team has a shot.
The better we get those other guys playing the less pressure are on the three you mentioned. That is the key to future success. We’re 3-10 right now when Gerald Wallace scores less than 15 points, we can’t rely on him so much.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 7:29 AM EST up reply actions
+1
That is an accurate a description of the current Bobcats if ever there was one. We really can’t afford to have any one of those 3 players have an off night and expect to get a win unless we’re either very lucky or playing a very weak opponent.
Felton does need to pick up his assists. Jackson does need to take higher percentage shots. Wallace – well I’m actually a little worried about asking anything else from him. If there were just one thing I could personally request from him it would be that he resist the urge to pump up 3-point shots entirely. As exciting as it is when he drops one in, the misses can be ugly.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
No sir
The three thousand OTHER things he does on the court keep the defense honest.
Reasonable outside shooting percentage from those that are supposedly being PAID to shoot from the perimeter keeps the defenses honest.
When the deadliest boards man in the NBA cranks one up from the corner it makes defenses heave a mighty sigh of relief. It means he isn’t drawing a foul. It means he’s at least 20 feet away from an offensive board. It also means that the “honest” defense you are referring to did its job – it got a deadly player to take a poor percentage shot.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yes sir
If Wallace never shot or hit 3’s then his defenders would just sag off of him, thereby cutting down on the lanes he uses to drive to the basket. Wallace hits enough of them to warrant him keep shooting them at the appropriate times
Even with the recent success he's had there
Teams still pretty much leave him wide open. Nobodies really scared of Wallace as a shooter yet.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
THIS
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
You obviously have a chip on your shoulder today
Wallace is playing AllStar ball with or without defenses sagging. Every team in this league knows he’s a beast and every team we play comes on the court with containing him as the center of their game plan. It doesn’t work because the man is all but unstoppable.
None of this is worth arguing about.
We’ve gotten along fine prior to today. I’ve no interest in changing that.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
W just disagree on the thrre point shot
Something that happened all the time in my playing days, and still happens in my coaching days.
It seems like the players i want to shoot the open three want to drive to the basket. And the players i want to settle it down and pass the ball, always want to jack up a 3!
As a player i had a hard time turning down an open look for 3. If a player is shooting above 30% + from downtown, an open 3 pointer is good shot in my opinion.
When you factor in the chance % of getting a long offensive rebound
then the open 3 pointer is an even better shot.
As far as the "chip" is concerned
I went to bed last night pumped about the Bobcats’ quality win and great performance in basically all aspects of last night’s game. Then when i sign on to rufus and read the game post, the comment section is dominated by Procto style Felton bashing. After a game like last night’s that is pretty irritating.
My opinion is that if we want to raise the level of discourse on this site, we should ban Prpcto. (i dont personally want to ban him, but he is the reason everybody is so touchy on here). Even when Procto isn’t the one instigating a disagreement, he is still the problem. Because everybody is so used to his obnoxious and disrepectful style of blogging, that they become defensive and think that everybody is insulting them and belittling their opinions.
If there is a site
that allows discussion or blogging that doesn’t have a troll population I’ve yet to find it.
I’m not naming names here, but Rufus is no exception and there are a couple of people here that regularly engage in “trollish” behavior. I’ve tried to make it a practice to not reward the trolls with the attention they thrive upon although I’m guilty of rising to the bait on occasion. I do have quite a bit of experience moderating discussion groups and websites and banning is really a last resort action. It gives the person the chance to play martyr on every other related site. It also doesn’t solve the problem because anyone with a modicum of web savvy will simply show up a day or so later under a new name and start it up all over again.
I’m sure this info isn’t a newsflash to anyone.
As far as Michael Procton specifically, I’ve gone a couple of rounds with him as have many here. I’ve had some pretty decent discussions with him as well. I don’t believe he, or for that matter anyone else, can sink or elevate the discourse single-handedly.
Selective blindness helps out quite a bit there. Once someone establishes themselves as an idiot nobody takes their comments seriously anyway. I’ll assume that you and Michael – as well as myself and everyone else that stops by here – have lives beyond Rufus where you are both respected and respectful with those you associate with. Sometimes we each have to remind ourselves to keep things in perspective and not allow something we participate in for fun to become so large that it brings us down or bums us out.
Last night was indeed one hell of a good night to be a Bobcats fan. Hopefully Friday night will be as well.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 9, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a problem?
Please. I’m almost the one directing profanity and insults at other like you do almost exclusively.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Feltons career average in assists is 6.6
That’s higher than shoot first guys like Iverson, but a solid 3.3 assists less than guys like Chris Paul, yet only 1.5 less than Nash. So he’s not tearing it up… but he’s not nearly as bad as some would have you believe.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I htink many on here really hate it when Felton plays well
So much that, they must temper any praise of him with at least one negative comment. Even when there isn’t anything negative to say about his play in a particular game, floks like to invent one. “Like he only had 3 assists,” or “he played well last night, but he USED to suck! Remember?”
Wait...
Somebody invented the fact that he only had three assists in a game where we scored 107 points? I’ve looked at every box score I can find, and that’s what each one of them lists. Pitiful performance in serving the role that a point guard is supposed to.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me for four years, forgive me if I’m not ready to embrace you after 2 months.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
THIS.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
He's also been in the top five in minutes nearly every single year.
If you’re allowed to play 36 of the team’s 48 minutes at the PG position, you should have reasonable assist numbers by default. And every single one of the players you mentioned is a far superior scorer to Felton, so he should not only equal, but better their numbers in the playmaking department.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
And why in the world would he have to play so many minutes?
Maybe because nobody else on the team could score maybe? But now he’s taking and making more high percentage shots… It all kind of makes sense huh?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
He "has" to play so many minutes...
because the tools in the Columbia blue sweater vests who buy the majority of the hundred or so season ticket packages demand it. He’s regularly played more minutes for this team than far superior players over its history, Wallace, Okafor, and Brevin Knight among them.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
I went to bed early last night
I figured when i awoke and checked Rufusonfire.com this morning, all the Bobcats fans would reveling in the great win last night.
Too much to expect i guess.
Instead i get the same all tired lines from many of the regulars here: Raymond Felton sucks. David’s post pretty much says: “Raymond Felton, despite sucking as a basketball player and a human being, finally played a decent game last night. I doubt he can keep it up”
Procto’s dumb-ass has pulled up some obscure BS stat that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Raymond Felton is inferior to DJ. (Pay no attention to last night’s +/- line that was +23 for Felton and -11 for DJ).
So what Felton only had 3 assists last night? The Bobcats obviously do NOT need Felton to dish the rock like Jason Kidd to be a successful team. PLus, the man played OUTSTANDING defense against Billups, racking up 6 steals. Not to mention how absolutely horrible DJ looked last night. He looked better sitting on the bench no doubt!!!!!!!!!
I mean get real y’all!!!!! Can’t you even enjoy the win?
Allen Iverson leads the league in steals on a regular basis.
Nobody considers him a “great defender.”
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Did you look at Billups numbers from last night?
Oh yeah, that;s right. Chauncey was just tired. It had NOTHING to do with the Bobcats’ and Felton’s outstanding defensive performance.
Even win the Cats win you do realize you’re on this site just to talk bad about them right?
IMO, Felton is a great defender.
These past two years, he’s really stepped it up defensively. Currently, he’s second among point guards in Defensive Rating; only behind Rondo.
As an aside, Gerald Wallace currently leads the league in Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares.
On another note, our offense is +11.3 points per 100 possessions when Felton is on the court.
And yet Rondo is actually a smarter passer, FAR superior rebounder, and smarter overall player.
Heck of a thing for a guy who certainly wasn’t picked 5th overall.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
A little off topic, but watching DJ last night
I couldn’t help but wonder what we would be like if we had done the right thing and drafted Brooke Lopez…
We are currently tied for 6th in the East we have our best shot at the playoffs ever we are playing great ball and all we can do is bash Ray cause he went to UNC serious Does the sucess of this team mean nothing to some of you? I think David and procton would rather see DJ and Henderson starting and our team with a 1-19 record than to see Felton playing great and this team as a legit playoff contender
...because I said that.
Good call, chief.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Don't I know it.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
dudemanhey thanks for calling out the pesimistic hatters. If you hate a player just come out and say it dont hide behind veiled insults and dont try to rationalize that DJ is better than Ray its a Joke.
Distilling arguments to buzzwords like 'hate' is infantile.
I don’t think anyone has said Felton’s recent play has been anything short of great. In my mind his recent play has been a long time coming and is starting to prove that he was worth the lofty draft pick that was spent on him.
The DJ vs. Felton argument is a mute point. Felton is a 5 year pro being compared to a player just starting his second season. One player is in a slump (DJ) the other is finally starting to find his game (Felton). People would sooner forget just how good DJ Augustin was last year and annoint Felton the best thing since sliced bread because we happen to find ourselves in 6th place.
I’m excited about the seeding too, but we are extremely lucky to be playing in the East, because right now we’d be tied 10th in the West. This is still a sub .500 basketball team, who have happened to play well enough that ‘Johnny-come-lateleys’ are trying to get on the bandwagon before it pulls out of dodge- which always happens with pro sports in the Carolinas.
You joined this blog on Dec 5th Bcat2.0, and clearly you already have David Arnott, Procton and everyone worked out. These were all people voicing their concerns last season, the offseason, preseason and now. I would stick around a little longer before you start labeling people.
There is clearly a ‘good Felton’ and ‘bad Felton’ he has a history of drastically inconsistent play. People want to hang their hat on the last 20 games like they justify the previous four seasons. Meanwhile, they chide DJ Augustin as being worthless because he’s been down in the 20 games this season, despite running rings around Felton in 2008-09. That is called hypocrisy, and that is more of a joke than anything.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We do.
Arnott just doesn’t care about doing the job.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
As for the Banwagon coment dream on this team has no nationaly telivized games I dont think we have many banwagon fans I drive 2 hrs to see the Cats play and Pay for NBA ticket just to see every game If there were any Fans like that in Charlotte this Franchise would be better off. I have been here through thick and thin. I have also read the articles on this site for a while but have just recently created an acount I have been reading the kind of crap proto and david put out for a while so i know the bias
Who is the better point guard in Bobcats’ history in your opinion? Raymond Felton or Brevin Knight?
Just curious.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
the addition of Stephen Jackson was a turning point in Feltons season His shots per game are down his turnovers are down and his FG% is up. This is the reason i believe that Felton will continue his good play. Felton has had to do too much throughout his career having a guy who can make a jump shot and create his own offense has helped everyone on this team. Wallace has been greatly improved due to Jackson’s arival as well. Wallace was shooting one of the worse FG% in the league before the trade and his scoring was way down. This trade has made everyone better. I think jackson has taken presure off of Felton and the improvment in his game is not a phase but a product of having other talented players who can create offense. This should make everyone happy.
Good point
I was giving more of the credit for Felton’s improvement to LB… but maybe it is more Jackson.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Just a little nugget
From a John Hollinger (ESPN) chat today.
Is too much emphasis put on “Assists per Game?” PGs like Jameer get criticized for not having a high assist average while playing on such a potent team. But, with so many offensive weapons, shouldn’t the PG “run” the offense and not just focus on getting the ball to the scorer, but ensure a fluid, ball-moving offense? Same could be said for other PGs…
John Hollinger
(12:46 PM)
A lot of times PGs on great teams will have low assist #s, because most of those teams have wings or bigs that you can run most of the offense through. This is why the pass-first point guard thing is a bit of a fallacy - teams win all the time with low-assist PGs whose main role is to score.——————————————————————————————————————————————
-
No, we’re not a great team. But the point remains valid.
Exactly
Teams don’t need a 9 apg point guard in order to be successful. How many assists did Ron Harper average with the late-90’s Bulls? Derek Fisher averaged 3.1 assists with the championship Lakers just last year. I still think that Felton sucks but to argue that he must have a certain number of assists is ludicrous.
Derek Fisher also only played 30 MPG...
And just checking, who’s our Kobe to share the playmaking load? Derek Fisher is an entirely different kind of PG because he doesn’t handle the primary ballhandling responsibilities much at all, much less the majority of the time like Felton does. Ron Harper’s a bad example, too, because while he was listed as the 1 and Jordan the 2, Jordan dominated the ball. Further, Scottie Pippen (the SF) was probably the best distributor.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 10, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Okay
It appears I inadvertantly started this whole fracas regarding Felton’s assist level in posting my usual “observations” comments after the Nuggets game. I’m not taking credit for this – and if it started earlier I’m at least going to own up for fueling the fire with what I said in that post. Here’s the thing.
I WAS NOT DISSING FELTON.
One of the more vocal Felton fans – I believe it was southtunnel but wouldn’t testify to it under oath – had been saying that Raymond’s rather dramatic improvement this season was due to the instruction of Coach Brown. Personally I was of the opinion that it was due to the arrival of Jax since many of the Bobcats had improved after his arrival because of his presence giving the other players some breathing room. I thought that since there wasn’t quite as much pressure on Ray to take charge, he had been able to relax and get more into a rhythm on the court. Regardless, after reading southtunnel’s (I’m pretty sure he’s the guy that was pointing it out) comments I gave it some thought. Coach Brown had made several statements about working with Raymond in the press, so I decided that LB’s mentoring could indeed be a factor. (Bear with me, I promise there’s a point to this)
I am disabled, but I don’t like the taste of living on fixed income checks. It doesn’t matter that I earned the money earlier in my career, it still feels like charity. The difference between a writer and a hack is that one gets a paycheck. Although it isn’t enough for me to live off of at present, I am indeed a writer. I’ve been supplementing my income with writing for 30 years – sometimes making good coin, sometimes making chump change. I’ve never earned dime one as a sportswriter but one of the things I am rather constant about is that I try to interject some kind of humor into anything I’m writing. In fact, most of the cash I’ve earned over the years “by the pen” has involved either music or satire. (here comes the point)
In the Nuggets “Observations” post I tried to give a nod of acknowledgement to the notion that Felton was indeed starting to shine under LB’s guidance. Since Brown is originally from New York I affected as much of a Bronx accent as one can in text form, inserted copious PG-rated Goodfellaslike vulgarity (New Yawkers are noted for dat sorta ting ya know) and suggested Coach might want to work on Raymond’s assists. This wasn’t because I wanted to say that Felton sucks. It was because when you look at Raymond’s remarkable stat lines of late, it’s the one weak link. He had a tremendous turnover problem that is now completely reversed. His court vision is dramatically better, as is his shot selection. He’s fixed his problems and improved his play. Someone in the media said it best when they said that Felton was “doing less, but accomplishing much more.” It’s as good a way to describe the efficiency improvement as I think you’re gonna find. Pointing to the comparatively low assist number was simply the hook I hung the bit on.
Since then all hell has broken loose. Since I do feel partly responsible for instigating this mess, I want to say a couple of things that CANNOT be argued unless you’re just an ass looking for a fight. If argumentative comments are attached in reply to this post trust me, you’ll just be identifying yourself as a noisemaker.
1. Raymond Felton has grown into the PG position in a big way. Rather than a streakish game or two, this improvement has now lasted long enough that it’s looking like a trend more than a fluke.
2. It is VERY rare for a player to buck their career trends for the long term but it looks as if Raymond is making a strong effort in that direction. There will still be some ups and downs in this process and it really is a bit early to say it’s permanent, but it’s By-God encouraging and welcome as hell.
3. Right now the most important players on the Charlotte Bobcats are Wallace, Jackson, and Felton. They are each playing so well that if any one of them has an off night the team can likely weather the storm against most teams because the efforts of the other two will make up for it. Having three hot players wins ballgames and saves games that might otherwise be lost. Three is better than two. Instead of screeching back and forth about which of the three is the best, can’t we just agree to consider ourselves very fortunate to have this trio? This is a very brief moment in time peeps and the odds on all three being back for next season’s Fightin’ Felines are a bit shaky at present. Let’s enjoy the ride!
4. Yahoo Sports Fantasy Basketball currently lists Raymond Felton as the #1 hottest pro guard and points out that at present he is only at a 66% ownership amongst fantasy players. In Wall Street vernacular that means he’s a AAA Buy rating. I mention this just in case anyone wanted to attempt to claim my first points were wrong.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 10, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
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