Best Bobcats Trade Possible Contest
by David A. Arnott on Dec 7, 2009 11:57 AM EST
148 comments
Seeing as the members of Rufus on Fire all know better than the Bobcats front office (yes, I count myself in that group), here's your challenge. Use the RealGM Trade Checker to come up with a Bobcats trade that the other team(s) involved would accept and that advances at least one tangible goal for Charlotte. Post the teams, players, and link to the Trade Checker in a comment.
CHARLOTTE gets: Tracy McGrady
HOUSTON gets: Raymond Felton, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Leon Powe, Alexis Ajinca
CLEVELAND gets: Stephen Jackson, Nazr Mohammed
The big obstacle is getting Houston to go along with this. They probably don't need another guard like Felton, but Z and Powe are probably very attractive for a run at the postseason (Z's poor numbers this season notwithstanding), especially since all these contracts are really flexible and just for this season. Cleveland gets the scoring swingman they've wanted to pair with LeBron James, and they replace Z with Mohammed.
For the Bobcats, they get a real, honest-to-goodness superstar. Maybe he's too hurt to play, and Houston's doing the right thing by collecting the insurance (probably the biggest obstacle to the trade), but we dump contracts and give playing time to D.J. Augustin, all in one fell swoop. We get first crack at re-signing him, and if we don't want to make that leap, he can walk after this season. I'd pull the trigger.
YOU CAN WIN A PRIZE
The best trade proposal and explanation, in my sole judgment, will win a promotional copy of The Art of a Beautiful Game, by SI's Chris Ballard, which I received for free from the publisher. I'll announce the winner on Wednesday. Have at.
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Cats/Clips
This isn’t a permanent fix, but realistically we are looking to fill a need at the PF position this year, then we can work from there in the offseason with the FA market.
Bobcats get: Craig Smith and Sebastian Telfair
Clippers get: Raymond Felton
Smith is technically an undersized PF which you might say we already have (D. Brown and Diaw). But if you have watched Smith play, we are talking more about Ben Wallace than “undersized PF” might lead you to believe. He put together a solid campaign in Minnesota, and now has limited minutes with the Clips. Telfair is only to make the money right. Brings in playing time for Augustin and Murray (and maybe Law?). We don’t lose any shooting with the loss of Felton, playmaking though would have to be picked up a lot by Augustin because Murray is a shooter let’s be honest.
As a Clipper fan I hate that trade idea
Baron is already enough of a chucker, and I wouldn’t want Felton, too. Telfair is a better backup PG for the purposes of the Clips, who conspicuously showed no interest in Felton during free agency. Felton wouldn’t approve this deal anyway because he’d lose his Bird Rights only to come off the bench for a team not likely to make the playoffs. You are correct about Smith although the Ben Wallace comparison is off. He actually is a pretty good scorer but below average defender and rebounder. He is solid depth and valuable to the Clips with Blake still on the mend. The only benefit this trade gives the Clips is the small amount of cap space freed up by the loss of Telfair. Not worth it IMO.
point taken
But I think anyone in the league would take Felton over Telfair (Telfair is shooting 22% from the 3-point line), and when Griffin gets back (in a couple weeks) you have a littany of big men-Camby, Kaman, Griffin, Jordan, Smith, (Skinner, Novak).
by markpricefor3 on Dec 7, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Not arguing Telfair is better than Felton
But as a backup PG, Telfair is a good fit. He has a reasonable contract. He doesn’t shoot a lot. He accepts that he is a role player, and he is an excellent ball handler and passer. Smith is also a good fit, and Clip fans know better than to assume all the big men will stay healthy. They never do, and frontcourt depth has a lot to do with the Clippers’ improvement this season.
Felton probably would not accept the same role that Telfair has filled for the Clips, and he wouldn’t be all that valuable to them. With Baron around, he would be just a short term rental. If Baron goes down to a serious injury, then maybe this trade could happen. But as things stand right now, Felton’s PT and future contract options would be limited in LA. There isn’t any reason to believe he would accept this trade, which he has the right to veto since he signed the Bobcats’ Qualifying Offer.
Ugh.
If that’s all we can get for Felton, even I think we should keep him. That’s a deal that would basically mean we were giving up on the season. I don’t see that trade making sense for either team given neither is a strong playoff contender. But if we’re going to pick up a guy like Telfair, we might as well get rid of Murray, too. They have roughly duplicate skillsets, and Telfair is younger, so that fits our needs much better. I’d add Murray and Law, and ask for something back like Rasual Butler. He’s another versatile SF with a diverse offensive skillset, and it works in the trade checker.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
Who would be upset if Jackson was traded?
I am still trying to figure what all the hype was about. He turns the ball over, fouls at the worst times, and takes terrible shots for no reason. He has the worst FG% of anybody in the normal rotation except for Augustine and Henderson.
The only thing he brings is 4.1 assists per game. What’s the deal with this guy?
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
The 'deal' with Jackson is that the Bobcats were 3-7 before he arrived, now they're 8-11
As said by Raymond Felton, Gerald Wallace and others he’s jumpstarted this team.
The Bobcats were on pace for a 24-68 season before his arrival.
The Bobcats are now on pace for a 36-46 season.
A 12 game improvement is pretty drastic, look at Felton and Wallace’s improvement since Jax was added to the roster and you have your answer.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
i would be upset
you obviously haven’t been watching many games if you think that all he brings is assists. He can score, dish to teammates, play good D, and has made Gerald Wallace much better since his arrival. I hate Felton, but he has been playing better probably because he doesn’t think he needs to carry the scoring load as much which=more wins and more:)
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
by raysfan81 on Dec 7, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah but we said we traded for him to get a proven scorer
Yet his field goal and 3 point percentages are one of the lowest on the team. I’m not hatin’ on the guy… I’m just trying to understand why he’s such a great player.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Nobody EVER said he was a "great" player.
They said he was a good player who’s probably being paid more than he’s worth who can score points because he’s never scared to shoot. Just because you’re a “scorer” doesn’t mean you have to be efficient. Allen Iverson never has been.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
he is a good player who has some great games
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
That's pretty accurate.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
actually i like this
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
I know you are right about that
I just can’t figure out what it is. It’s just odd that the guys he “jumpstarted”, are playing better than him. And if his main purpose is to elevate everyone else, then I wish he’d quit taking so many shots where he’s not open.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Thoughout Jackson’s career he’s always shot too much; it’s what he does.
What he also does though is provide a threat. The threat of Stephen Jackson may very well be more than his effect itself. He will knock down shots if left open, it’s when he’s contested that he falters.
Before his arrival the only player on the Bobcats other teams respected offensively other than Gerald Wallace was Raja Bell. Bell’s abilities were limited due to age. Jackson takes a lot of the pressure off Gerald Wallace allowing him to iso with his opposite number. Wallace 1 on 1 is gambling with house money. If the team decides to double Wallace then he kicks it out to Jackson who will knock down those open shots.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
weird
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
35-47.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
He's also played a whopping nine games for the team.
Ignore his stats. Look at his play. His ballhandling, court vision, and ability to create open shots for himself were something sorely missing from this team, and they’re greatly improved since his arrival.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions
David, I have a question
I tried to trade Jax using espn’s trade machine and it said Jax can’t be traded in a combo trade until Jan 16 for some reason that I have trouble explaining. So is this trade proposition contest for right now, or for any time in the near future including after most restrictions expire?
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Dec 7, 2009 1:31 PM EST reply actions
Use the RealGM trade checker. It’ll tell you you can’t make that trade until a certain date, then show you what the trade would look like.
by David A. Arnott on Dec 7, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
ESPN will also do it...
But you can’t link to trades you’ve done on there these days for whatever reason.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
Ultimately we desperately need someone with a jump shot
Right now, Diaw hits the highest percentage from anywhere outside the paint. A friggin power forward. Granted he’s not a typical power forward, but that just shouldn’t be.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Diaw's never really been a PF in anything but name.
He’s played all five positions throughout his career, and would probably be no more out of place at SF or SG than he is at PF.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree
Sure we’d get a superstar. You know, the one that never plays who’s always injured.
i wouldn't take McGrady at all
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
try Trade Felton And Ziop For Al Harrington Of The Knicks
This Would Be A Power Forward That Knows Basketball. He’s Play For Larry Brown Before.
that would be nice
but not sure if the Knicks would do that deal
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
Yeah I don't think so either
One of the main reasons the Knicks didn’t sign AI was because they wanted to develop their young talent. While they may like Ray, they definitely don’t want to take up Diop and his contract considering he doesn’t even play anymore. But hey I would not be against getting Harrington.
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Dec 7, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Why in God's name would they do that?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
because Harrington is a very good PF who can score bunches of points
thats why
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
The Knicks, not us.
You’re making my point for me.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
The winning trade?
Three team trade. Chicago, Miami, and Charlotte.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ygr2uj3
Chicago gets Stephen Jackson from Charlotte & Dorrell Wright from Miami
Miami gets Kirk Heinreich ( & potentially a draft pick from Charlotte)
Charlotte gets Michael Beasley from MIami and Tyrus Thomas from Chicago
This trade (not including the possible draft pick from CHA to MIA) was successful in the ESPN NBA Trade Machine. Miami gets the PG they’ve been supposedly shopping for and gets rid of Beasley’s baggage. Chicago has been reportedly shopping Tyrus Thomas. They ship him and Heinrich and in return get an upgrade over Heinrich and Salmons at the SG/SF in Jax and an expiring contract swing man in in Wright.
The Bobcats could potentially be the big winner in this deal. They get two former top draft picks with expiring contracts. Both athletic PFs with scoring and superstar potential. They could be playing against each other for who can secure a good contract. While the Bobcats lose the catalyst of their resent resurgence, they get some offensive fire power from the post and shed Jax’s 4 year deal. Additionally moving Jax wll open up playing time for other guards like Henderson, and Augustin. Or potentially enable Wallace to sometimes play the two with Thomas and Beasley on the court together as the forwards. There are many other possible benefits to this but i have to go now.
I have convinced myself. I really do wish the Bobcats would pull the trigger on this deal now!
Makes no sense for Miami
They’re invested in Mario Chalmers, especially with Dwyane Wade handling the ball more. They just need a game manager/defender, not to mention the hefty contract Kirk brings. They want to sign LeBron, CB4, or Boozer after this season. This makes it harder.
At Chicago, Stephen Jackson takes the ball out of Derrick Rose’s hands. No way. The rest of their players just feed off of him. None of them NEED the ball in their hands. It also destroys their cap space as THEY try to go out and get Bosh, unless they Toronto does a sign-and-trade for Stephen Jackson, but he doesn’t fit Bryan Colangelo’s style.
Charlotte wins this one without a doubt. Cap relief, young talent, don’t give up anything in the long term… I wish this would happen, I just don’t think it makes sense for anyone else.
by drapht00 on Dec 7, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Miami is actively looking for an upgrade at PG
It makes the least sense for Chicago, but they are reportedly trying to trade Tyrus Thomas. How bad???
A guy who hasn't been an above-average NBA player is three years is not an upgrade.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
In Chicago
Kirk Heinrich takes the ball out of Derrick Rose’s hands much more than Jackson would. Heinrich & Rose play the same position but often see time on the court together. Jackson might be a good fit in CHI, playing alongside Rose in the backcourt.
No he doesn't
When they’re on the court together, Kirk plays off the ball, mainly as a defender/3-point shooter. He doesn’t go 1-on-1. Have you even watched their games, or are you just basing it on a “same position” assumption?
Jackson needs the ball to be effective. And I don’t see him accepting a lesser role now that he’s been a supposed go-to guy in his last 2 stops.
by drapht00 on Dec 8, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Theyre post listed as PGs
so they definitely play the same position. And they definitley play on the court at the same time.
And Boris Diaw is listed as a PF.
What’s your point?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Listed?
When they’re both on the court, Hinrich slides to the 2. He handles the ball when Rose gets pressured, but he’s not the primary ball handler. He stands on the 3 point line and waits for a kick out after Rose draws 3 defenders on his drives. Listed positions are so irrelevant in today’s game. With so much “small ball” being played and the ever so popular “Stretch 4,” it makes no difference what anybody is listed as. You play what works.
OK. you play what works
How would this strategy used by Chicago differ if Jax was a Bull? He could be used much in the same way Heinrich is used alongside Rose and in the same way Salmons is used. Plus Jax is better than Salmons and Heinrich as a SG
Heinrich also takes the ball out of the hands out of Rose by being a good back up PG. As Rose grows, the need for a back up PG getting paid like Kirk is being paid will be greatly diminished.
How about some better explanation of why Jax wouldn’t be good in CHI besides he “NEEDs the ball in his hands.”
I like the trade idea.
Only thing with Jackson going to Chicago is that he doesn’t really fit what they’re trying to do.
Is he an upgrade over Hinrich or Salmons? Absolutely. But this is Derrick Rose and Luol Deng’s offense.
In Charlotte, Jackson is the no.1 or no.2 option on offense, in Chicago he would have to settle to be no.3, which he’s never really done.
- Hinrich and Salmons have combined for 359 FGA
- Jackson has has 290 thus far.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You really think Jackson will agree to spot up in the corner.
Jackson dominates the ball like nobody’s business. Further, if your complaint about having too high-paid a complement is a problem, why would you get Jackson, who’s paid even more? It’s not like they’re clearing out a lot of wings over the next few seasons. James Johnson just got drafted, Salmons is under contract, Rose’ll be there long term, and you probably don’t want to pick two of those four guys to bury on the bench. Not with the investment of the salaries of the vets and the draft pick for Johnson.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Not too high payed compliment
I specifically said BACK-UP. Not compliment.
The Bulls obviously aren’t too worried about Johnson’s pick because they have him buried on their bench behind Taj Gibson already. And besides, Johnson and Jackson don’t even play the same position.
The Bulls are 7-11 and on the verge of getting beaten at home against NJ. They are looking for a change of some kind. Salmons is their weak link on the starting 5. Jackson could be their upgrade.
Really? Johnson is buried on the bench behind Gibson?
That’s weird, since Johnson is a shooting guard and Gibson is a PF.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong
James Johnson is a 6’9" forward. Get your facts straight.
Oh that’s right. You don’t care about that , you just want to argue.
Weird, then, that the Bulls have been playing him there when he's barely playing at all.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Why don't you go their friggin roster
and look for yourself.
If they do play him at the SG it is only because they do NOT have a reliable SG on their roster. All the more reason the Bulls might be interested in Jax.
Again, Boris Diaw is listed as a PF on our "friggin" roster.
He can play any position, and PF is probably not the position at which he’s likey to be most productive.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 9, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Same thing as Steve Blake in Portland and Mario Chalmers in Miami.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Umm, nope...
Hinrich is usually playing alongside Salmons or Hinrich. And Rose is just as much an SG as he is a PG regardless.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure Miami goes for this deal
Beaslel and Thomas together would be sweet though.
ESPN links don't work.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Great idea David, he's my insane idea.
CHARLOTTE GET
C Al Jefferson
PG Andre Miller
SG Damien Wilkins
SG Rudy Fernandez
PORTLAND GET
PG DJ Augustin
PF Kevin Love
C Tyson Chandler
SF Derrick Brown
MINNESOTA GET
PF Lamarcus Aldridge
SF Martell Webster
C Desagana Diop
Why Charlotte makes the deal: They get a legitimate star in Al Jefferson, a solid veteran point guard in Andre Miller, a do everything player in Fernandez and an expiring contact with Wilkins
Why Portland makes the deal: They rid themselves of Andre Miller, while getting an excellent PG for the future in Augustin. Tyson Chandler fills their needs at C while Oden is injured. Derrick Brown is athletic and continues their youth movement. Kevin Love gives them them the shooter they need and a solid big man to replace Aldridge.
Why Minnesota makes the deal:This is the hard sell. Minnesota lose Jefferson, but there are some rumblings the Wolves are scared his injury will never allow him to reach his full potential. Martell Webster gives them a reliable 3 pt shooter and helps them stretch the floor. Lamarcus Aldridge gives them a true future star at the PF position, and a player athletic enough to run the floor on both ends and help the development of either Johnny Flynn or Ricky Rubio. Diop is a kicker, but gives them some defensive depth for a team with no chance of the playoffs, but who will likely draft a center in 2010.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 3:46 PM EST reply actions
nice, I like this one
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
I like this for Charlotte, but alas, doesn't make sense for anyone else
I guess it wouldn’t be fun any other way!
I don’t see Minny giving up their starting front court even if they do get Aldridge.
Does Portland want to get rid of Miller? He does halfway solve the future pg problem in Charlotte thought he’s not exactly an upgrade over Felton.
I do think Portland wants to get rid of Miller.
He’s not gelling with Brandon Roy, not only are they not gelling, they’re not getting along. This is Roy’s team… expect to hear that the Blazers are shopping him when he can be officially traded Dec. 15th.
As for the ‘is he an upgrade’ angle. His numbers this season are down (due to the aforementioned reason) however, last year he put up 15.8 ppg and 8 apg, which is an upgrade. Furthermore, he has 2 years on his deal (3 with option), compared to Felton’s expiring deal. Miller’s deal also caps out at $7.8 mil in the option year, whereas Felton is wanting something in the neighborhood of $10 mil per.
As for Minnesota, yeah, they’re the hard sell in all this. A lot is reliant on them really thinking Jefferson has peaked already because of his injury. Martell Webster is a baller though, his per 36 is: 13.3 ppg and 5 rpg. They have a lot of cap room and not many veterans.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Portland very much wants to get rid of Miller.
Though he’s got a reputation as a pass-first player, he needs the ball in his hands and gets his shot when he wants. That doesn’t work when Brandon Roy’s the other member of the backcourt. Roy himself has already acknowledged that he very much prefers playing alongside Blake, who serves as the Chalmers to his Wade, making smart passes, staying within himself, and spotting up for open looks on the wing when Roy drives. Miller doesn’t fit that mold, and he’s paid way too much to run the second unit and play mostly when Roy (a heavy MPG player) is off the court.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
Oh...
And you’re crazy if you don’t think Miller is an upgrade over Felton. Better shooter, better ballhandler, better decision-maker, better defender, and a better all-around player than Felton is in any other way you can think of.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
Call me crazy then...just look at the numbers
Miller is a better defender?
Last season at pg Miller’s opponent PER was 17.9. Felton’s opponent PER at pg was 13.0
Who’s the better defender?
Last season at pg, Miller had 8.6 assist per 48 minutes. While playing pg, Felton had 9.9 assists per 48min. Felton’s assists numbers took a dip when he played at the SG spot. Felton played significant minutes (28%) at the SG, Miller played ZERO minutes at the SG.
If you look at Net per 48min production for last season, both are +2.9 at the pg position. Felton’s numbers dip when he’s at the SG, but I’m contending that Felton isn’t a SG. Neither is Miller.
Miller does historically shoot a better FG%. When Felton’s at the point, however, the difference between the two players shrinks significantly. Shooting from 3pt? This season Felton is shooting roughly TWICE the percentage that Miller is shooting from the 3 point line. .174% for Miller, .361 for Felton. Felton is better career wise as well. Better shooter? Nope. Miller has taken better shots, hasn’t forced as many shots in the past, I’ll give you that. But if we’re talking about pure shooting ability, Miller is worse.
This season both players overall FG% is the exact same. .416.
You can look at the stats, Felton’s numbers are driven down when he’s forced to play out of position. Miller hasn’t had to do that.
Call me crazy for actually using statistics to make an argument. I like your bold, make unfounded statements based purely on speculation approach though. I mean it doesn’t work, but it’s easy to prove wrong.
Per 48 is a flawed method for evaluation, nobody plays 48 mins with regularity which is why nobody uses it. Per 36 is a much better system.
2008
Felton: 13.5 ppg, 6.4 apg, 3.6 rpg, 0.408 FG%, 2.7 turnovers
Miller: 16.1 ppg, 6.4 apg, 4.5 rpg, 0.473 FG%, 2.4 turnovers
2009
Felton: 13.3 ppg, 5.8 apg, 3.5 rpg, 0.416 FG%, 2.5 turnovers
Miller: 14.6 ppg, 6.1 apg, 3.6 rpg, 0.416 FG%, 2.8 turnovers
So, Miller in his down season is outperforming Felton in multiple areas.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
Let me also add:
You’re justifying Felton’s lack of production on him being ‘forced’ to play SG. If that’s the case why doesn’t his PPG get a benefit?
Miller runs the point and scores more, and does so more efficiently.
The kicker in Miller over Felton is the contract. Felton will be gone unless we want to overpay him, you have Miller for a few years before worrying about that.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
His PPG don't go up because he's a shitty SG
I don’t want Felton to play the SG and neither does anyone else.
I agree that Miller solves the contract dilemma but gives roughly equal production to Felton. I don’t want to overpay Felts either.
I simply said that Miller isn’t better than Felts and the numbers back me up. Look at defense. Felton is much better. Look at the stats I listed above
So wait...
you can take the opposing PG’s per as an example of Felton’s exemplary defense when you admit he spends 23% of his time at SG.
What happens to opposing SG’s when they play Felton?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Felton shouldn't play the SG
He’s bad at it
Miller isn’t forced/asked to play sg so we can’t say how he’d handle it, but when Felton plays the pg, he’s just as good as Miller at the point
You really have no basis for saying per 36 is better than per 48.
As long as the per minutes are equal, it’s a pretty fair evaluation.
James, other than the scoring and Miller’s FG% last season, we’re looking at minuscule differences between the two players. The scoring difference isn’t huge. So what we have is that Miller shot a much better % than Felton did last year. And that trend has held across their careers.
You’ve handily ignored the caveat of Felton’s time at the 2 guard. That has to be considered in an honest evaluation. Felton’s time at the 2 guard brings his assist numbers and shooting % down significantly for his season totals. Miller didn’t play a single minute at the 2. Felton’s value is as a PG, not a 2.
In my opinion, respectfully, you’re not being honest if you ignore that point.
Plenty of people use per 48 stats by the way. How do you think I got them? I didn’t compile the numbers by myself. The benefit of 82games is that it breaks the numbers down by position played, which as we can see, is very helpful to fully understanding player performance.
And if Felton was actually good enough at running the team and setting up his teammates...
He’d never have had to play the 2 in the first place.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
What position they played is irrelevant.
It is natural to assume Felton’s APG would dip at SG, it’s also natural to assume his PPG would rise because of it.
Who is helping your team win more? The guy responsible for 26.8 points per game (Miller, PPG+APG) or the guy responsible for 24.9 points per game (Felton, PPG+APG).
You keep conveniently glossing over the contract issue like it’s no big deal. Ultimately it’s the most important part of the whole scenario.
Andre Miller gives your team more for less money that Felton does for (potentially) more.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't agree that Miller gives you better production
He scores more and plays worse defense than Felton
Last season their net production (offense and defense) was identical.
Miller was in the backcourt with guys like Iguodala and Willie Green, who both distribute the ball pretty well. Diaw does too, but he didn’t come on board until a few months into the season.
Also, to compare their three-point shooting is a little ridiculous. Miller at least knows he’s a bad three-point shooter, something Felton has never been able to figure out. Miller’s career-high is 108 threes taken. Felton’s career-low is 200, and even this season when he’s “figured it out” and stopped jacking up so many bricks from downtown, he’s still on pace for 155. Comparing the career averages is even more damning: Miller-56; Felton-248.
Oh, and as JtA points out, Felton’s far more turnover prone and never gets the rebounds Miller does, items you chose to ignore.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Far more turnover prone? Really? That is stupid.
You’re talking about tenths of a point difference in turnover margin. Again w/ the rebounds you’re talking about tenths of a point difference. You’re really stretching it.
You blatantly said that Miller was a better defender. Defend that statement.
Turnovers are relative.
Miller’s 2.71 A:TO ratio is a full better 10% than Felton’s 2.48.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
10% is also relative.
do you want 10% of a dollar or 10% of a million dollars?
They’re both 10% but there is a huge difference in value.
Come on man you’re better than that.
I want a 10% better decision-maker as my starter at PG, absolutely.
Particularly if we’re going to use the player in that spot on the depth chart for minutes that consistently rank in the NBA’s top five in minutes played.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
You're ignoring the point
The value is relative.
The math actually equals out to an 8.5% difference between the two players’ A:TO.
So what does that effectively mean? How many more games in a season are won from 8.5% difference?
Can you quantify that? At this point it really seems like you’re just splitting hairs.
Does that even represent decision making alone?
Is A:TO ratio only the product of decision making? Are there no other factors?
I love that idea
thought it’ll never happen….ever
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
Portland would never agree.
Augustin has shown himself to be essentially the exact same player as Bayless; there’s not room for both (not to mention Patty Mills.) They’re not sacrificing Aldrige (who’ll be an All Star for years before long) to pick up a scrub like Chandler. The whole point of their youth was to get better and make a playoff run. You don’t accomplish that goal by trading your best players and staying young in perpetuity, losing talent along the way.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
Kevin Love is no slouch.
I think that helps to lessen the blow of losing Aldridge.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 7:20 AM EST up reply actions
He's also no Aldridge.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Granted, Love has only played 2 game this season being back from injury, but I was shocked when I looked at their stats, but here’s their per 36 comparison
Aldridge: 16 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 1.9 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.6 bpg, 0.473 FG%
Love: 20.5 ppg, 14.8 ppg, 2.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 0.6 bpg, 0.563 FG%
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, Love was solid as rookie, too
I like the creativity of your trade idea, but my guess is that only the Bobcats would like this trade. Portland and Minnesota would both be giving up an awful lot, and I can’t see either of them giving up this much in trade without getting back a true superstar.
Come on, now...
Love plays on a team with hardly any talent whatsoever. Aldridge plays for one of the better teams in the better conference. And I hope you’re not trying to sell me on an argument based on two games worth of data. You’re better than that.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
PF Trade
This one we get a young PF who can score and a pure shooter.
Charlotte gets: Anthony Randolph and Stephen Curry
Golden State gets: Rudy Gay
Memphis gets: Raymond Felton and Stephen Graham
Trade can not be done until Dec 28th because Graham was signed as a free agent this summer.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5314887
Golden State gets rid of an upset player in Randolph and gets a scoring forward that can take a team on his back when needed in Gay
Memphis gets a better point guard then Mike Conley and also gets a decent back up in Graham.
As a warrior fan I will tell you, and I speak for all Warrior fans,
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!! THIS IS HORRIBLE FOR OUR TEAM! NO!
by freerandolph on Dec 7, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
Warrior fan for the last 8 years
I actually believe this is a great deal for the warriors. While we lose a great young guard in Curry we get rid of a player who is clearly not happy nor getting deserved playing time so why not get rid of Randolph. Then we also get a great player in Rudy Gay who will be a great run and gun complement to Monta.
Rudy Gay hasn't been anything close to great since two seasons ago.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:40 AM EST up reply actions
GS will NEVER agree.
That’s a pair of potential future All-Stars for a guy who hasn’t been good in almost two years. If Randolph is upset, that’s not the Warriors’ problem.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:39 AM EST up reply actions
+1000
Disgruntled or not, i fail to see why the Warriors will give up Stephen Curry just to get rid on a ‘disgruntled player’.
Curry is no Acie Law.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Keeping it simple
DJ Augustin for Andrey Blatche.
It works in the trade machine.
All our team is lacking is a backup PF. You could make an argument about center but I believe the combo we have is good enough.
Blatche has increased his ppg and rpg every year hes been in the league.
Hes still young…23 yrs old…been in the league five years. Check out his career stats…not too shabby…points, rebs, blocks, good fg% and decent FT% for a big man. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andray_blatche/career_stats.html
Also…interesting stat from NBA.com…Became the second player in NBA history to record at least 25 points, 12 rebounds, five assists and five blocks in a game as a reserve (11/25 vs. GSW), joining Philadelphia’s Charles Barkley (11/28/86).
Washington needs help at pg…Arenas has looked terrible lately. They have mike james and boykins but thats not much help for the future…Foye is better at sg. Also, they dont need blatche. They have Jamison and Javale Mcgee.
We lose our backup pg but we arent using him anyways. So, we sign Raymond back next year. He says in interviews he wants to play here in Charlotte because its his home and hes always lived here, so he will sign here. We can meet him somewhere in the middle and I think he’ll go for it.
what about felton instead of Augustin
Augustin is still young but we know Felton is really too expensive for the inconstant production
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
This interests me
But what would our lineup be?
PG – Ray
SG – Jax
SF – G-force
PF – Boris/Blatche
C -Chandler
So my only question is who do we start at the PF? Boris is not a true PF so I suppose Blatche would start? Or what?
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Dec 7, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Good Question
I would hope LB would have open competion but who knows. I think LB would probably bring Blatche off the bench and he would be our energy guy kind of like birdman but better offensively. I also think this trade would cause an increase in effort from Diaw because he knows if he doesnt play well, he could lose his starting job.
Diaw'd start at center before he hit the bench.
Both he and Chandler are paid ridiculous salaries, but at least Diaw produces every now and then.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:42 AM EST up reply actions
I like this ok
I’m still not satisfied w/ the handy dandy “resign Felton” solution you proposed.
The Bobs future pg situation is just a mess right now.
Blatche is a hundred times better than McGee.
They’d absolutely dump Lemonhead before they gave up Blatche. And yeah, I totally agree about resigning Felton. He’s definitely worth $10 million. Although you might want to know that Andre Miller is paid $8 million and Jason Kidd isn’t even paid $7 million. But hey, we know you’d rather have Felton than either of those scrubs.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
Blatche isn't going anywhere
Sorry.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
But JaVale McGee is SO good!
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
Cap Space
The problem with trades this season is that pretty much everyone is trying to make a run at the free agent market next summer. Middling teams like Chicago, Miami etc. are going to balk at taking back any contracts, especially the erroneous ones possessed by Stephen Jackson, Gana Diop, Tyson Chandler, Mohammed… We just don’t really have tradeable assets.
Honestly, the trade I like the most is a very simple, already discussed of Stephen Jackson for Delonte Wesk and Wally Sczerbiak on a 3 year contract with only one year guaranteed. While short term returns are limited, this gives us financial relief, which leads to selling the team to someone who knows how to run an organization, which leads to better success in the future. While the playoffs are nice, are we satisfied with the idea of being, at beast, a 6-8 seed from the next 3-5 years? That sucks. What really sucks is that draft pick we’re going to lose. What would really make this a deal for me is if we could find a way to squeeze JJ Hickson out of the Cavs. Sadly, they’ve actually started playing him and seen what he can do, so I don’t see him going anywhere any time soon. Plus LeBron loves him. LeBron was also mad he didn’t get Jax, so I say let it fly.
Yeah, Hickson would be nice.
I was hoping and even thought that the ’Cats would be able to get him with that 20th pick back in ’08. then Cleveland pooped on that by taking him at 19. So that would be nice.
Then disappointment and WTF? came when Ajinca was picked immediately thereafter.
Thoughts:
Mohammed’s contract isn’t that bad anymore for a contender with plenty of money to spend. He’s overpaid, but he’d serve the role he should (20-25 MPG bench player expected to do nothing but play solid, not challenge for a starting spot), and his contract expires after next year. That means they could trade him over the summer or just ride out one more season if he doesn’t work out.
Hickson is now pretty much regarded as untouchable unless, in the words of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, it’s a “home run deal.” And the problem with being involved in a talent-for-cap space dump is that there is no guarantee whatsoever that we can sign anybody with that cap space. The market isn’t an attractor, the coach (who hasn’t won in five years now) isn’t an attractor, and the woeful attendance certainly isn’t. There’s not much to attract good players here, and there are plenty of other teams with more money to spend and many more selling points. So I’d need a 1st-round pick, minimum, to go for that deal, even knowing that it’s very likely to be a low, low pick.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 2:03 AM EST up reply actions
Totally agree
There would have to be a lot more steps taken than just this trade. I just look at it as the beginning of trying to fix the mess of this team. While it would require completely new management to do it, look at the way Portland, OKC, and Houston have constructed their teams. That’s a great, albeit difficult, blueprint to follow. The way the team is constructed from management down is just sad.
The real shame of it is your comment about attendance and local support. When the Hornets sucked, they still had support which allowed them to build a team. The Bobcats, thanks to George Shinn, have no support which makes it so much harder.
George Shinn isn't to blame.
It’s Bob Johnson and Michael Jordan’s executive incompetence that have left the Bobcats in the position they’re in.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
For SHAME!
You have put me in a position where I actually am forced to agree with Michael Procton!
(that was a joke Michael)
George Shinn succeeded in proving what many thought was impossible. He showed the nation that NC would support an NBA franchise. He proved that our passion for the game would create a 2nd teir market that would produce revenue that outpaced the biggest markets in sports.
He then completely alienated fans in two states by trading away any player that either showed talent or (GASP!) was popular with the fans. Then allegations arose about Shinn personally that resulted in his all but being run out of town on a rail. He single-handedly destroyed the Hornets franchise in North Carolina. Fans cheered when he and the team blew out of town. He’s guilty on all those counts.
But within months of his exit from this state businessmen and fans began lobbying Stern for a new team. Stern and the owners were all for it. Shinn had proven pro ball would work here. There were several consortiums assembled to attempt to bring a new team into town and Bob Johnson won the franchise. ALL success or failure of the new team falls squarely on his shoulders and the shoulders of his partners. Translation – Johnson and Mr. Michael Jordan.
George Shinn has less to do with the success or failure of the Bobcats than Stephanie Reddy, Del Curry, and Steve Martin.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 8, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Actually...
The Bobcats don’t exist because of business and fan lobbying. The only reason the Hornets were allowed to leave was that Charlotte was promised an NBA team in the event of the Hornets’ departure beforehand.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent points
Shinn did a good job at first. And Bob Johnson and Michael Jordan have sucked. What I said before was far too simplistic.
But I would argue (without any definable data to back it up, just an observation) that the way Shinn treated the team by trading away every asset as soon as it became worth anything turned locals off to pro basketball, especially with such strong local college basketball. The Hornets had sold out arenas from day one, crappy team and all. Same city, same fan base, better facilities, and the Bobcats had empty arenas since opening day of the inaugural season. Maybe I’m reading into that situation too much, but it seems that the bad taste left by Shinn’s screw ups put current ownership in a hole that they were unable to get out of because they are even worse. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that none of this had an effect on the current situation. The fans were already turned off to the sport, current management sucks and has made it worse rather than better.
The thing I really love about this post
Brand has one of the worst contracts in the league and has recently been pushed as a viable option for the Bobs.
Not to be outdone, David decided we need to take on the WORST contract in the league. Diop, Chandler, Nazr aren’t enough? We need the worst contract in the league.
In that vein I got a great solution for a new power forward. Let’s sign Sean Gilbert out of retirement. Dude was well worth what the Panthers paid him.
Um… McGrady’s contract expires after this season, a fact, alone, that gives it some value. It’s not even close to the worst contract in the league. That distinction probably belongs to Mr. Gilbert Arenas. Everyone else is “competing” for second place: Brand (getting better, though!), Corey Maggette, Anderson Varejao, Matt Carroll, Nick Collison, Andres Nocioni, Beno Udrih, and probably a few others I’m forgetting. (Didn’t name any Bobcats for this exercise.)
by David A. Arnott on Dec 7, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
A couple I think you're forgetting:
Eddy Curry, Marcin Gortat, Jason Richardson.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
23 mil and not a minute played still makes it the worst contract this year
It’s a subjective opinion yes, but not an unfounded opinion by any means. I’m far from the only one who thinks T-Mac has the worst contract
23 million off the books. OK do you think we’ll get; Lebron or Bosh? Maybe Boozer? Hell let’s sign em all. We have a realistic shot right?
I think Bosh or Boozer are realistic.
No way to LBJ or Wade. Those guys will go where they can be the most marketable, image is vital to those guys.
Bosh or Boozer will go where the money is. That’s what I think anyway.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
I figured as much ; )
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
It's possible.
But if they had any opportunity, they’ll still probably take less to not have to slave away in front of dozens at the cable box on a team that might top out at 45 wins or so.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
David’s deal will clear over $23 million at the end of the season from McGrady alone, combine that with the $28 million from Jax over time, $6.8 million from Nazr and $4 million from Ajinca and you’re clearing over $71 million from the roster over time and freeing up $38.5 million for the summer of 2010.
That has us going into 2010 with one of the lowest payrolls in the NBA. That money could be used to get a serious free agent… a Chris Bosh type free agent.
Personally, I love the idea of our 2010 roster being
PG: Augustin/Law
SG: Henderson
SF: Wallace/Brown
PF: Diaw
C: Bosh/Diop
That still gives us a whole lot of room to bring in new players too. On paper it looks crazy, but it makes a lot of sense in terms of clearing the books.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
the salary cap is an abomination
The whole concept of trading productive players for unproductive ones simply to get their expiring contracts under a team’s cap is abhorrent.
If there’s any industry in which there should exist a pure meritocracy, it’s professional sport. Baseball thrives without any sort of salary cap; the Yanks hadn’t won since 2000 and the Twins can make the playoffs. There is NO valid justification for the obscenely wealthy skimming huge profits in return for grossly mismanaging their franchises while crying poverty.
Uhh...
Baseball doesn’t thrive at all. Ask Orioles and Royals and Reds fans how much they think the sport is “thriving.” It’s not the salary cap that’s the problem. It’s the soft salary cap. If you’re not going to make teams actually adhere to the cap, why have a cap at all?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
+1
The reason baseball is so horribly boring to me is that 7 teams compete every season and the rest delay the inevidable.
Then when a team develops a good farm system they get to have one good season before all their players leave for one of those 7 teams.
I’m completely confused by your justification bugjackblue, because only fans of those 7 compeditive teams support the salary cap. Most analysts say it’s something that should happen, but never will.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Since 1995, the only teams who have not appeared in a Divisional Series at least once are the Jays, Royals, Nationals. and Pirates. And the Jays, Royals, and Pirates have all won World Series in generational memory. Add to those only two more, the Rangers and Brewers, who have not appeared in a League Series. 17 teams have appeared in the World Series in that period, and nine different teams have won it all. Nine different teams have won the World Series over 15 years time in this era of great payroll disparity and supposed lack of parity! And aside from the Yanks, no team has won more than twice. One of those two teams is the perennnial poverty-crying Marlins. League Series participants in that period include the Orioles twice, the Padres (four times!), the A’s (five times!), the Twins (five times including 2009,) the Indians (seven times!), the Reds, and even the Rays and Rockies who have both gone on to the World Series.
There is PLENTY of opportunity for “small-market” teams to compete and some do so quite successfully. If the Royals don’t it’s because they are mismanaged. (And they were just as much a “small-market” team in the 70s when they were a power.) No city has a god-given right to an MLB team and if one is not making enough money they can move the franchise. That Montreal is the only team to do so in recent years makes abundantly clear that every other team is turning enough of a profit to make it worthwhile to stay in their “small-market.” That the larger-market teams can pay higher salaries and amass greater depth of talent on their rosters does ensure that those teams will be numerically represented in preponderant force in every year’s post-season but it does not in any way preclude teams with lower payrolls from appearing as well.
These are not opinions. These are empirically-demonstrated facts. That the casual fan may believe otherwise is testament to the success of the owners’ anti-labor propaganda but it does not in any way alter the actual FACTS of the matter.
Baseball thrives tremendously. Attendance is huge, and in those stadia which don’t fill up on a regular basis the Yanks or Red Sox provide a significant boost to draw as opponents. Sales of memorabilia and apparel are robust, television networks vie for broadcast rights, and cities float bond issues to build new ballparks.
Now it may well be that basketball attendance, profitability, etc. may not behave in similar fashion to that of MLB’s but unless that can be sufficiently demonstrated (maybe it can? I don’t know…) the example set by baseball in regard to continued parity and opportunity for “small-market” teams tends to mitigate against the value of a salary cap in professional sport. I will agree however with the last six words of your post— “why have a cap at all?”
by bugjackblue on Dec 8, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
excuse me... minor correction
The Padres have actually appeared in the DIVISIONAL SERIES 4 times (LCS and WS once). Similarly the A’s have appeared in the DIVISIONAL SERIES 5 times (LCS once), the Twins 5 times (LCS once), the Indians 4 times (WS twice.) The Orioles have appeared in the LCS twice and the Reds once.
Same point is made, just wanted to correct the data…
and what do all those teams do the next season? When their players are robbed by a big market.
Of course small market teams have the opportunity to compete each season, but building a strong farm system is far more difficult than buying players.
Case in point, 2009. These are the playoff teams and their respective rank in payroll:
- NY Yankees: 1st
- Minnesota: 24th
- LA Angels: 6th
- Boston: 4th
- LA Dodgers: 9th
- St. Louis: 13th
- Philadelphia: 7th
- Colorado: 18th
That’s an overall average of 10th.
Therefore, chances are you don’t make the playoffs unless you’re willing to be a top ten spender in the league. Hence why baseball fails.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 8, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
I would just like to say...
Bo Jackson on the Royals, Raiders = best two sport star of all time
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Dec 8, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
You’re going to bring up the 70s? When free agency had barely developed and the average salary was less than $150K? You’re definitely right about the profits, too. The Pirates, for example, who have one of the newer and best ballparks in the league, made a whopping $11 million the last two years despite the fact that they’re in a great sports market. And then here’s the best part of your whole argument:
That the larger-market teams can pay higher salaries and amass greater depth of talent on their rosters does ensure that those teams will be numerically represented in preponderant force in every year’s post-season but it does not in any way preclude teams with lower payrolls from appearing as well.
If you’re admitting that the system is unbalanced and unfair, then how can you possibly support it? Sure, small-market teams can scrape their way into the playoffs once every three or four years. Immediately after, however, they’re going to get their core players stolen from them because they can’t compete with the salary offers teams like New York can offer. And the worst of it is that a team like the A’s will see a guy like Nick Swisher go from heart-of-the order on their team to traded for prospects they can afford and a bottom-of-the-lineup hitter in New York in just two years because they couldn’t compete financially.
As for the “marquee attraction” of the Yankees and Red Sox for attendance, how much that huge attraction did for Baltimore and Toronto this year. They played New York and Boston a combined 18 times at their home field, yet ranked 28th and 29th in average attendance capacity this year, with less than 49% of their tickets sold each. You can bet that meant that true gate figures were closer to 35% or 40% capacity. And that was with Toronto in the Wild Card lead and 1.5 games out of 1st in the East as of May 30th. If that defines “huge” attendance, I don’t know that I can continue this conversation.
If you want an example as to how and why a cap works, look at the NFL. With a true hard cap, every team’s fans know almost every year that they’ll have an equal shot at marquee free agents as well as chance to be in the playoff race, and the NFL has “huge” attendance. The worst team in the league for ticket sales (Jacksonville) would rank 14th in the majors. And hey, just take a look at the NHL. If a likely-to-be moved Phoenix is ignored (and hey, they’d still rank 20th in MLB attendance), hockey’s next-to-worst team (Atlanta) would rank 13th in baseball, ahead of major-market baseball teams like the White Sox, Braves, Mariners, and Rangers. So hey, if you really think baseball’s “thriving,” have at it, but again, I’d suggest that fans in Toronto, Kansas City, Baltimore, and Pittsburgh would disagree.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
baseball? really..
why are you talking about it????
the yankees only soldout 7 games this season??? 6 against boston and the home opener and only sold out 3 games in the playoffs… sport is garbage and the main reason is not because it has no salary cap but just because it is the most boring sport ever and flatout sucks.. basketball,football and hockey are so much better.. please take your shitty baseball talk somewhere else
public enemy #1 is jake delhomme jr. a.k.a mark sanchez
Thank you for your astute commentary.
I was responding to another poster’s initial discussion on the sport. But if you don’t like or don’t care about the sport, feel free not to comment at all. You’re probably not going to change my mind.
P.S.: Pretty bold of you to dictate what I should and shouldn’t talk about when I’ve got, oh, 1600 more comments on this blog than you. I’m sure the Rangers kids miss you.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
I do think the Rockets are a good match.
But I don’t think a McGrady acquisition should be our goal. I frankly think they’re a great match for us to get rid of Mohammed. With Yao out, they’re relying very heavily on Scola and Landry as their 4/5 combo. Neither is a Center, or really even very close to it. That has a lot to do with the fact that neither Chuck Hayes nor David Andersen have shown very well this year (although both are young.) When it comes to the playoffs, they’ll want a vet who can man the position. Unfortunately, though, there’s not a lot of talent we can get from their end in such a deal. However, we could get out of Mohammed’s contract and get younger with a deal like this:
Mohammed
for
Chuck Hayes
Brian Cook
In Mohammed, Houston would get a vet who’s got a ring and 40 games of playoff experience who can provide some stability and knowhow for their playoff run this year. They also get a guy who profiles relatively well compared to the aging Dikembe Mutombo (less defense, obviously, but certainly more offense as well) they loved so much in years past to pair with Yao next year in the event he makes it back from his foot issues. They also get to acquire him at the cost of just two players who fall pretty deep in their rotation (7th and 12th in MPG, respectively.)
The Bobcats save at least $3 million next year and also get a couple of young frontcourt prospects to evaluate on an extended tryout basis. Cook is mostly a throw-in, but he’s shown in the past (mostly with LA) that he has the ability to be a pretty solid player, both as a score and a rebounder. That could have had to do with the fact that he was playing with such good talent around him, but he was certainly a productive player in college and regarded well coming out of college. He also has good PF height and the bulk to go along with it (being four inches shorter than Tyson Chandler, but actually weighing more.) Still, his contract expires after the year if he doesn’t play hard, so worst case scenario, we get a chance to include a legit PF (in both size and skillset) in our rotation and see how it works, and we gain about $3 mil in cap space, which could go towards an MLE-level player to fill out our rotation next year and help take the spot that would usually go to a rookie that we know Brown won’t play.
The bigger potential piece is Hayes. He’s played a good bit of C in his career because that’s his game, even though he’s undersized (6’6", 240.) That’s an inch shorter than G-Force, but he’d be the second-heaviest player on the roster, behind only Diop. He’s a junkyard dog who’ll scrap for rebounds and defend with everything he’s got. To me, that’s the type of mentality we need on this team in a frontcourt player. When Nazr Mohammed is your toughest PF or C, there’s a big problem. And Hayes’ contract includes a team option for next year which doesn’t have to be exercised until 6/30/09. So we’d get plenty of time to decide whether he was worth his very reasonable $2.3 million option last year. If he shows he can be an effective player even to the point that he earns 20 minutes a night as a backup PF/C, he’d absolutely worth it (for comparison’s sake, the only players who are scheduled to earn less next year are Ajinca and Henderson.
So while we don’t come out with a great haul for Mohammed, I simply don’t think he’ll be particularly coveted, and we definitely do either net a solid, young rotation big man whose skillset fits this team’s weaknesses almost perfectly and $3 million in cap space, or we get $6+ million freed up that can help cover the cost of an MLE deal with a midlevel player who misses out on the riches from subcap teams looking for his payday wherever he can get it. I think it’d stand a good chance of being accepted, because it helps both teams without moving a ton of money or players already considered to be part of either team’s core.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
Oh...
And link.
Hollingervision says we’re 6 wins worse and Houston is 4 worse, but we’ve seen how that can work before.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
As for this trade...
The Rockets are a playoff team without McGrady or anybody else in his roster spot. At some point, given that they know as well as I do that they’re not a championship-caliber team (or even probably a third-round caliber team) at their best, it’s probably more worth it to add $20+ mil to their bottom line and see what they can do with that money, whether it be next summer or some other time. They’d also have to pick two guys to cut off their new roster, because they’d have 13 under contract even with McGrady’s departure. So they wouldn’t even benefit as much as it appears by the aquisition of those guys in this trade. And if Cleveland could dump an aging, unproductive Ilgauskas and a questionably healthy Powe and manage to pick up Jackson—much less Mohammed too—Danny Ferry’d become the executive of the decade in an instant.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
I hate this trade the only way this trade makes any sense is to Tank this year to try to get a big FA who isnt going to come to Charlotte anyway. Mcgrady is not the answer and I dont think we should tank this year when we have a realistic chance to make the playoffs for the first time. How about a trade that would actually make us better
What's the point of making us better...
if better means we get swept in the playoffs as a 40-win #7 seed and can’t even reach that level for the next three years because we have so little financial flexibility?
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
there is no certainty that a playoff trip will be a sweeping loss.
that is just your own personal pessimistic view point
Or just my observations from having watch this team play the conference elite this year.
The vast majority of the time, they get stomped.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Who needs a steak when you’ve got two pieces of garbage… right?
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
How About This One
I almost gave up on finding a trade that helped the Bobcats while actually helping the other teams involved. I think I have one here.
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5317791
Bobcats get Jordan Hill and Jared Jeffries from the Knicks
Knicks get Tracy McGrady from the Rockets and Acie Law from the Bobcats
Rockets get Nazr Mohammed from the Bobcats and Darko Milicik and Cuttino Mobley from the Knicks
The Bobcats get two PF’s, one a lottery prospect, while giving up nothing of value. The Rockets get two centers, and only Nazr is not an expiring contract. The Knicks get cap space.
The only caveat to the trade is that Acie Law can’t be traded in combination with other players until January 16.
Flip Murray and Alexis Ajinca could also be substituted in this trade for Acie. Then, the trade could be made after Christmas, when Flip is eligible to be traded.
I like it.
Finishing the season with Tyson and Diop scares me though…
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 9, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
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