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Around SBN: The Pros and Cons of an 18-game NFL Schedule

Bobcats Slip By 76ers 106-105

(Note: The Official Girlfriend of Rufus on Fire happened to have an important function for me to attend tonight, so I haven't watched the game yet. I'm going off the box score, just like most of you, since there was no local broadcast. If you watched the game, fill in with your thoughts in the comments.)

The Charlotte Bobcats pulled off a fourth quarter comeback in Philadelphia to beat the 76ers 106-105. After Andre Iguodala sank two free throws to put the Sixers up in the final minute, Raymond Felton's layup with 4 seconds remaining put the Cats ahead for good.

A few weeks ago, I named a few developing stories to follow with this team. Free throw shooting is still a problem, and three point shooting hasn't been as much of one, though it's still lurking just under the surface. However, the third issue, playing time for young players and roster management in general, has become a glaring problem since the Stephen Jackson trade. In this game, we can see Larry Brown still has yet to realize that even the teams that rely on a veteran core give their rookies and other young players significant playing time while attempting to win now. Of course, it's easy to argue the Bobcats aren't a title contender and are barely a playoff contender, so it's probably in our best interests to play rookies and young guys as much as political concerns will allow, so we can find out how good they really are.

In that respect, the game's a mixed bag. The winning result is good, but LB's process leaves a lot to be desired. Highlights and lowlights after the jump.

Star-divide

BAD

-- Are we sure Ronald Murray isn't still recovering from his shin's stress reaction? His important rate stats are down across the board and he put up another 0-6 tonight. I mean, he's able to play a bit of point, but only when the matchup is absolutely right should he play more than a few minutes there.

-- Maybe D.J. Augustin's been struggling because that's what happens to young players who don't get consistent playing time and don't have the full confidence of their coaches. This is the second straight game he's been held out with a DNP-CD. What the hell? I mean, Flip is going to be streaky and is, at times, probably well worth the risk at PG if we're looking for scoring from that position because everyone else is getting shut down. However, D.J. is the guy we want out there for at least twenty minutes per game, sharing time with Raymond and easing into next year's starting role. Or maybe LB is giving up on him.

-- Seriously, LB, you can't keep giving Crash and Jax 45 minutes per game. If you're playing Game 7 of the Finals, that makes sense. If you're playing Game 19 of the Regular Season, then you're just wearing down your best players early on and hoping they don't succumb to general fatigue before clinching a playoff spot. Or, from a more cynical point of view, you're wearing down your best players early on so that when the playoffs slip out of your grasp, you can blame them for not giving good enough effort down the stretch, deflecting some attention away from your coaching and front office shortcomings.

GOOD

-- I'll keep writing it because he deserves the praise: Gerald Wallace is a stone cold beast. 24 points on 9-18 shooting, and 14 rebounds. The more I think about it, I like the "Rodman with Drexler's finishing" comparison more and more.

-- Boris Diaw finally snapped out of his funk. He had a game high 28 points on 10-12 shooting, including 5-6 from three. This kind of scoring outburst is absolutely welcome, but, if I may tamp down some premature celebration, it looks a lot like a lucky night where the shots were falling. It's a good sign that, perhaps, he's turned a corner, but the most we should hope for is that he's his old self again and not this bumbling new self who doesn't score much, doesn't pass all that well, and still turns it over too much.

-- Gerald Henderson: 20 minutes! I'm agog. Those 20 minutes are good in and of themselves. More! More! Free Gerald Henderson!

-- Derrick Brown: 10 minutes! Keep doing this. 3 points and 3 rebounds is just fine for a role player. Free Derrick Brown!

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Just a few thoughts

I like Tyson’s play in the last two games (stat-wise at least). Note: this does not mean this atones for all his inconsistency this season to me. I mean tonight’s 7 and 10 isn’t mind-blowing but I’ll take it. And as for the nets game: maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about, but to grab 12 boards while your teammate grabs 20 doesn’t happen often. Would have been nice to contain the good Lopez, but that guy’s a great talent. Also, Tyson did play good D tonight.

I am very much for freeing Gerald the Second and Derrick. Also, lock up Stephen Graham. Please, LB, please.

If this is Boris breaking out of his funk, why did he choose today and not yesterday? I traded him from my fantasy team because he struggled against the Nets. Still, I hope he continues this kind of play. I’d rather the Bobcats win and my fantasy team lose.

Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.

by WhatAboutBob_cats on Dec 6, 2009 1:13 AM EST reply actions  

Chandler steps up his game

Tyson Chandler certainly has improved with defense and rebounding. He offensive positioning is also better. However, he still misses opportunities to receive passes. Against Philly, other players delivered a quick pass to him four times under the basket. He didn’t expect three of them, which led to turnovers. Knowing when to expect a pass should come with time. After missing the preseason, Chandler is still adjusting to the all the great passers currently on the Bobcat roster.

by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Dec 6, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

And to think...

people complained about Okafor’s “stone hands” and “nonexistent offensive game.”

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree with the criticism of "not" playing young players

For a 2nd round pick Derrick Brown is getting ample opportunity every game. Augustine got a ton of time as a rookie last year, the obvious reason he is not now is because he is playing horribly. LB has said multiple times that he wants to get Henderson more minutes, but it’s difficult at a position that is so stacked.

It’s one thing to give a rookie a lot of minutes when he’s playing beside a Superstar that can take over the game… But with the Bobcats, every player on the court (even rookies) have to carry a pretty heavy load. All that considered, I think LB has done a great job juggling playing veterans and young players.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 8:52 AM EST reply actions  

You do realize Gerald Henderson is tied 31st for minutes among rookies, right?

Derrick Brown is getting time because we have no depth. If we had at least one veteran PF on the bench we’d never see him.

As for Augustin: He is having a sophmore slump, but he’s never going to improve if you keep him inactive for entire games. As bad as he has played he’s still been a damn sight better than Flip Murray who is getting all the minutes as backup PG.

From where I sit, Larry Brown can cry about ‘wanting to get Henderson more minutes’ until the cows come home, but it’s pretty simple if he wants to do that: Make him the backup at SG instead of Stephen Graham.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Rookie Minutes

I don’t care who plays as long as the Bobcats win. That said, Flip has been stinking up the court. DJ is a better back-up point guard because he is looking to pass rather than shoot. If Flip stinks, give DJ or even Acie a chance.

If the Bobcats could blow-out a few teams and get bigger leads, the young players would get more opportunities. I don’t like Larry Brown keeping the rookies on the bench for the entire games, but Henderson and D. Brown are still getting good minutes in many games. When Ajinca has been on the court, he doesn’t appear to belong in the NBA. Unless, he can show dramatic improvement, the Bobcats need to cut their losses.

by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Dec 6, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

We're on pace for 35 wins.

So what’s the point of playing all of our starters 40+ minutes a game and not letting the rookies play ever again?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

What's the point of overstating things?

You lose all sense of credibility and just end up looking silly. No one’s going to listen to you if you can’t at least be reasonable.

Henderson and Brown are averaging 10 and 13 minutes a game. That’s playing time. I agree they need to see a little more PT, but let’s be honest with the facts.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

You're kidding, right?

How many of those minutes have come in games that hadn’t already been decided? How many of those minutes were played with a starter on the court with them? Two starters? Three, even? Don’t pretend that token PT in a blowout that boosts season averages is actually doing anything to develop these young players.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Playing time is playing time

Why does Henderson deserve to play w/ starters?

Why shouldn’t he play w/ the second unit? Why shouldn’t we expect that is minutes go up and down from game to game?

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Because he's better than players who do.

Four of the top five on-court units in terms of minutes played have had Felton, Wallace, Diaw, and Chandler on the court. Two of those units have Jackson and Bell (our two starters at the position) at SG. Fourth and fifth, though, are units with Murray and Bell at the two, units that have played more than 60:00 of gametime combined. A unit that includes Henderson playing along those starters doesn’t rank inside the team’s top ten in usage. In fact, he hasn’t even spent 10:00 on the floor with those guys. And he’s absolutely, without a doubt, 100% better than Steven frigging Graham.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You just spent a whole lot of time saying nothing

Basically, you said that Henderson is better than Graham.

Ok, and?

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

And one is regularly getting significant minutes, overall and with the starters.

One is getting garbage time minutes with and against scrubs. One situation does more to help the team win games. Which do you think it is?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Um...

I’m gonna guess the one that shouldn’t be playing is the one that has a cracker named after him…

Maybe they should do a Stevie Graham night…every fan who brings in a box of graham crackers gets a seat on the lower level…behind our bench.

Crackers go to the Metrolina Food Bank…
Playing time goes to Derrick Brown…so Stevie can talk to the fans.

On open practice night…I got 2 autographs…Larry Brown’s and Stevie Graham’s…

Larry’s is on my Bobcats hat and is safely put away. The Stevie Graham…it’s thrown up in a cabinet in the kitchen…cause it was in the way on the cabinet top.

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Xing.

(That’s Chinese for Zing.)

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You do realize Henderson played 20 minutes against Philly right?

Isn’t that proof that LBs trying to get him more minutes? He was even in late when the game was on the line.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

If you look at his game logs.

Larry throws him a bone every 4th game and plays him more than 20 mins.

It’s a pattern that’s rung true since the beginning of the season. I don’t think vs. Philly was an example of Brown’s desires.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a stretch

The only other time since game 1 that he saw 20 min or more was against Toronto… and that was because it was a blowout.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, so 20 mins is a stretch.. but look at this:

Game 1 of 2009: 25 mins vs. Boston
Game 2 of 2009: 6 mins vs. NY
Game 3 of 2009: 18 mins vs. Cleveland
Game 4 of 2009: 16 mins vs. Detroit
Game 5 of 2009: 6 vs. Philadelphia
Game 6 of 2009: 1 vs. Milwaukee
Game 7 of 2009: 7 vs. Indiana
Game 8 of 2009: 23 mins vs. Toronto
Game 9 of 2009: 3 mins vs. Cleveland
Game 10 of 2009: 4 mins vs. Washington
Game 11 of 2009: 13 mins vs. Boston
Game 12 of 2009: 20 mins vs. Philadelphia

A couple of outings at the beginning, followed by a steady 4 game cycle of over 15 mins

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks to me like he got minutes early, then never got much opportunity again until recently, when LB said he would

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure he got minutes.

Those were blowouts.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

What is not to understand?

D Brown comes in and goes to work…real time with starters advances him by leaps and bounds…

My 5 includes
Felton – Unfortunately
Jax
Wallace
Brown
Nazr

Then
Felton
Henderson
Wallace
Diaw
Chandler

Then
DJ
Flip
Brown
Chandler
Nazr

Then
Felton
DJ
Henderson
Wallace
Nazr

Then…

Wait…I’m leaving some guys out…oops…

by andrewlail76 on Dec 8, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

It would also be a fine argument if the guys ahead of the rookies in the rotation were tearing it up....

but you can’t tell me Flip Murray and Stephen Graham are “carrying the load.”

Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.

by Aisander D on Dec 6, 2009 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Graham no, but Flip is proven over his career

He is still adjusting to this team. But he is one of a few players that can create his own shot… AND who is willing to make a play when the game is on the line. Again… no Superstars here, we need guys with Flip’s confidence.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm not really

if he was shooting well and making good decisions with the ball then I’d be inclined to say yes, we need him playing big minutes. But over the course of his career I think he has truly proven himself as a streaky scorer and so-so PG. He was supposed to be some fire power off the bench for this team. Thusfar I’d say he hasn’t proven himself useful in that capacity.

Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.

by Aisander D on Dec 6, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

He has been streaky

But he has scored as many as 31 off the bench, and has the ability to hit from almost anywhere. It’s hard to justify playing a guy ahead of him who can do little more than hit an occasional wide open 3… and who can’t even do that lately.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

So one good game out of 20 means he should be the only guard who actually gets minutes off the bench?

DJ put up 21 against Jersey the first time and basically willed the team to the victory, but he’s not even getting off the bench. Like at all.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

In the past 2 games you're right

but for the season DJ is averaging 20 minutes a game

Hyperbole is unappealing.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Procton

You’re the one who said that Okafor would be an allstar in this season in New Orleans.

You say all kinds of stupid shit.

Stating that Murray is a solid performer is sensible in comparison.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

If he got the opportunity.

Post players can’t pass the ball to themselves. He’s 15th in the league in FGA, yet he’s getting fewer shots than he’s ever gotten in his career. Still, he’s in the NBA top ten in rebounding, blocks, and double-doubles. He’s producing as much as anybody could in the situation.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

You're not even trying

This is just a joke right? The same conspiracy in Charlotte has moved down to New Orleans to keep Okafor from reaching his full potential right?

I bet it’s the same guy who faked the moon landing. Good one Proc!

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

So what else can Murray do?

Augustin has five games with 4+ assists. Murray has two.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The both average 2 assist per game

However Murray has a better 3P%, FG%, and gets more rebounds and steals.

I know Flips not tearing it up. But for a team that’s barely hanging onto a playoff seed, DJs just too much of a liability right now. He’ll get more opportunity later, and hopefully then he’ll have his head straight.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

HOW IS HE ANY MORE OF A LIABILITY THAN MURRAY?

You’re absolutely wrong about Murray’s shooting numbers.

Murray: .345 FG%, .238 3PT%
Augustin: .352 FG%, .273 3PT%

The difference in their steal rate is .1/36 minutes, and if we need rebounding from our point guard, we’re in bigger trouble than Flip Murray can fix.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

This is what admiting you made a mistake looks like Procton

“My bad. I read the numbers wrong. You are completely right and I’m wrong.”

Take notes, it’s not that hard.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

What exactly is Murray "proven" as?

He’s an inefficient gunner without a conscience. If “creating your own shot” means jacking it up from anywhere on the court without running a play or even so much as looking to your teammates (particularly when you’re supposedly a point guard), I don’t think we need any of that.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

He has proven...

That Flip is a cool nickname compared to calling him Ronald…

by andrewlail76 on Dec 6, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Lol, only like 2 guys on this team have really ever "proven" anything

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I kind of agree with southtunnel

That doesn’t mean that Henderson shouldn’t get more minutes. I think he should. It seems to me that LB is working him into the rotation though. Henderson saw 20 minutes last night. Graham saw less than 3. Murray had 11.

I fee like Henderson is getting the chance to earn his minutes. You guys act like he’s entitled to minutes based solely on his draft position. You’ll probably tell me that’s not what you think, but go back and look at what you’re writing. That’s what it sounds like. I think that’s poor logic. As the season progresses, and Henderson shows he’s capable of playing well, I’d like to see him take some more minutes away from Flip, But we’re only a quarter into his rookie season.

As for D.J. I’d like to see him play out of his “slump” but I also want to see the Bobcats win games right now. He’s not helping us do that. Kind of a Catch 22 there. You guys can talk all you want about building for the future, but I personally have the most fun when the Bobcats win a game.

D.J.‘s still averaging 20 mpg. Yea he hasn’t played in two games. Like David said earlier, hopefully that’ll wake him up. This doesn’t mean that Brown’s abandoned him all together though.

The one player who really didn’t get the minutes that I think he deserves is Ajinca. We have a glaring whole at PF. Ajinca has the quicks and height to play there, but Brown wouldn’t even put him in the game.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Henderson absolutely deserves more minutes. If he was good enough to be drafted where he was, then why aren’t they playing him? There’s a bit of circular logic here: one can only show so much in practice, so if he doesn’t get playing time to show what he can do, then he can’t “earn” more playing time. Rookies get more playing time than they might “deserve” based on present day talent precisely because they’re showing what they can do.

Yup, the Augustin getting jerked around thing is too harsh. I’m resentful on his behalf of the more general jerking around, because his rookie season combined with Felton’s contract situation was the perfect setup to slot D.J. into a starting role this year, but they didn’t give it to him and then he got minutes cut when he started the season poorly. The young guys have no leash, and it’s crazy.

by David A. Arnott on Dec 6, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Henderson is getting playing time

He played 20 minutes last night and averages 10 minutes a game. That’s enough to show what he can do. By “earn”, I mean game time and in practice. Who says you can’t earn playing time from practice? The logic is only circular if you place certain restrictions on how playing time is earned. I don’t follow you there chief.

D.J. was not ready to be the starter this year. He’s proven that. If he’s playing this poorly as the second string pg, he’s not going to get magically better when he’s playing against starters. You talk about that like it’s a given that he should be the starter, and you’re suggesting that he’s playing poorly because he’s not. Where is the logic in that?

I want the kid to succeed, I really do. In a perfect world, D.J. would come into his own this season and take the starting role next year. We don’t over pay Felton and everyone’s happy, but you can’t argue facts. The facts suggest that D.J. is no where near ready yet. What was that you were saying about the pessimistic view often being the more accurate view w/ this team? Practice what you preach my man.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

He's "proven that?"

How? Has he started a game? Has he been given an opportunity to run the first unit? I’ve been watching, and I haven’t seen it.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

If you can't play well with the second unit...

then why do you deserve to be thrown into the starting line?

Is that really the logic you’re using? Ok so according to your logic ever rookie should automatically start since that’s the only way to tell if they deserve to be a starter.

Yes! DJ has proven he’s not ready to start. FACT!

His teammates are not the one’s making him suck right now. Chandler, Diaw, and Wallace aren’t going to magically make DJ learn to play D and start hitting his jump shots. You keep coming back to the same lame argument: DJ is playing poorly because he’s not playing with starters. Can you find even one reasonable person who agrees with that? I can’t think of anyone but you.

If DJ wants to run w/ the starters (keeping my fingers crossed that he will one day) he’s going to have to play the second unit a little better first.

Playing time is EARNED!!!!

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I never suggested they WOULD.

But with players on the court with Augustin who could actually do something on the offensive end, he wouldn’t have to force shots when his shot wasn’t falling. He could focus on setting up his teammates because they could, you know, actually make some baskets. Ray Felton never earned minutes. He was handed 30+ MPG from his first season here and started the majority of the games from day one despite the fact that we had an exceptionally solid veteran PG ahead of him who could still run an NBA offense better than Felton does. But I guess you use your tenets when it’s convenient.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait you NEVER suggested the would?

Then why do you keep harping on the fact that DJ isn’t starting?

Why are you even debating the issue if you can’t stand by the points that you’re making?

I made no claims about the PT Felton should have gotten in the beginning of his career. Can you please answer to what I’m saying without putting words in my mouth?

You’re not debating me, you’re debating the things you wish I was saying. Please read what I’m saying carefully, make sure you understand, and then respond only to that.

Again, you’re a hypocrite for excusing DJ for forcing shots yet ripping Felton for doing the same thing. I’m just asking for you to be reasonable for once. Is that so difficult?

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

You made this argument:

Chandler, Diaw, and Wallace aren’t going to magically make DJ learn to play D and start hitting his jump shots

I don’t care about that argument. It’s never been one I’ve stated or defended. I have said (remember, kids, reading is FUNdamental:

with players on the court with Augustin who could actually do something on the offensive end, he wouldn’t have to force shots when his shot wasn’t falling. He could focus on setting up his teammates because they could, you know, actually make some baskets

Augustin can’t be ripped for forcing shots. When he’s on the court, he’s the only player who can do it. Compare that to Felton, who is typically no better than the fourth option on offense. One of those players should defer to the numerous better options on offense. The other doesn’t have anybody to defer to at all.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Whoa! slow it down fella

You’re quoting yourself on something you said AFTER I called you out on your poor logic. You tidied it up a bit AFTER I called you on your shit. You also put all kinds of words in my mouth and assume things that I don’t say. Don’t be a hypocrite chief.

And your quote basically maintains my point. You’re still saying that DJ will somehow be a better player as a starter when there’s no indication that he can even handle the second string right now.

by and1droid on Dec 7, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm just curious.

What do you think Felton would look like if he had to anchor the second unit?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

What do you think Brand would look like 3 years from now being paid 18 mil?

What would you look like if you responded to what I said rather than what you wish I said?

Go ahead and tell me how Felton would do in the second unit. Look into your crystal ball and make another argument based purely on speculation.

I’m going to bed. It’s been fun fellas!

Procton, keep up that statistics course, you might accidentally learn something.

by and1droid on Dec 7, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Not sure which statistics course that's supposed to be, but whatever...

It’s evident somebody’s own logic won’t stand up on its own merit if they perpetually try to belittle others.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions  

How do figure 20 minutes equals "not playing him"?

I really don’t expect him to get more than that this early in the season. But LBs sticking to his word that he’s trying to get him more minutes… and he did.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

This one game is an abberation in playing time.

Have you not watched the rest of the games this season? I’m pretty sure he has played in only 2-3 games for more than 10 minutes so far this season, otherwise he’s been racking up DNPs and 3-7 minutes of garbage time.

Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.

by Aisander D on Dec 6, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

That depends on how he plays

But LB said he would play him more and he did. I think it’s odd that you guys complain about this after he gets 20 min. But if he goes the way of Augustine and stinks it up… then I expect LB to yank him. I want to win, not just give young guys minutes

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

But when Murray and Felton and Chandler and Diaw stink it up...

do they get yanked? No, because old vets playing poorly is apparently more conducive to winning than inexperienced players actually gaining valuable PT and getting better. Because, well, if nobody can get out on the court who’s going to play well, you might as well let the young guys get better so you can win some day. Otherwise, you’re forced to do something like signing an aging SG who was never very good in the first place to a one-year deal and you play him exclusively over your lotto pick of a year ago who just so happens to be the only player at the position on the roster under contract into next season. That’s a great strategy to develop a franchise.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually agree with your sarcasm

This team has little room for error if we are to make the playoffs. This early in the season I trust the veterans more. Towards the latter portion, if the younger guys have begun than to prove themselves then ok, give the advantage over the vets.

But I really think LB is trying to win now… NOT build for the future.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I know what he's doing.

It’s just absolutely wrong and it hurts this franchise. Particularly given that it’s not actually working.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

ONE GAME IS AN ABERRATION!

It’s like your memory doesn’t extend further than 30 hours.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember LB not playing him much at all

Then telling the media that he would give him more minutes. Then giving him 13, and 20 respectively. But there’s nothing wrong with letting these young guys spend a little time learning by watching the vets. He’ll get more time later… Be patient.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

If 16.5 MPG is supposed to get me up in arms over a lotto pick...

Sorry, I’m not.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I remember this Knight character who was pretty unceremoniously dumped for a certain UNC alumni.

That’s the same Knight character who’s still the best point guard the team’s ever seen.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

How exactly does a player show they're capable of playing well...

If they never get a chance to play significant, meaningful minutes? You complain that the play of Augustin and Henderson isn’t helping us win games, but what is Murray’s play doing to help? Here’s a typical Murray line with third guard minutes: 3-10, 8 points, 2 assists, 2 turnovers. That’s not helping the team win.

And Ajinca sucks. He’s overmatched and lost every time he hits the floor before the game is decided. “Quicks and height” are irrelevant if you have no basketball skills. Otherwise, they’d just hire marathon runners to play in the NBA.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously?

“Maybe D.J. Augustin’s been struggling because that’s what happens to young players who don’t get consistent playing time”

You can’t be blaming D.J.‘s play on him not getting minutes. He has gotten minutes. 20 minutes per game. D.J.’s had his minutes cut because he’s playing like crap. He never was great a distributing the ball(only average here) or playing D and now he’s shooting Felton like numbers from the field (under .300 for 3 pointers).

You can argue that 2 DNP’s is overly harsh. Yea, I’ll buy that, but how can you blame his poor play on his minutes? You are really stretching. He’s gotten minutes. Maybe teams are adjusting well to his lack of size. Maybe he has a lingering injury that’s not being talked about. Maybe he’s got baby mama drama, but he HAS HAD A CHANCE TO PLAY!

I can’t believe you write this and don’t mention Felton at all in the good. True, he didn’t play good D on Green, but he had 8 assists to 2 turnovers and scored 18 on 50% shooting. “Good Felton” contributed to the win last night. You have to start having serious doubts about how well D.J. is to be our starter next season. I was thinking that would happen, but now…maybe not. I just hope this doesn’t cause the Bobcats to over pay for Felton.

As for Diaw, he shot the ball so well largely because Brand wouldn’t step out to defend him. I never saw a player more open that Diaw in the first half.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:11 AM EST reply actions  

Has Dj ever shown the ability to be a starting NBA point guard? I have never seen it last year DJ made open 3s and hit his freethrows. He has never shown the ability to run a team get guys open looks and know when its time to take over a game. This year Dj cant even begin to run the offense and now hes not making open shots or freethrows. Players earn minutes by what they do on the court not on potential.
If we start all our Young players DJ, Henderson, and Brown (this would make David happy) We would be in the same position as New Jersey. 1 win We are trying to make the Playoffs please the best players are going to play. Brown is contributing while hes on the court therefore he is getting minutes.

by Bcat2.0 on Dec 6, 2009 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

I have to disagree with you on several levels

First, stating DJ, Henderson and Brown is not what David is asking LB to do. He, and many of the regulars here agree with him – myself included, is specifically wanting LB to give the rookies some real minutes. Coach has said in the media that he is developing his rookies, but you can’t develop a rookie guard by tossing him in with less than 2 minutes remaining in a quarter. You have to allow enough time for the player to get loose, register the defensive shifts the other team is making, and evaluate what your current combination of teammates are doing together execution-wise so the guy can get into the gameflow. Long-time veteran utility guards can do this on the spot but it’s unfair to expect a rookie to do it. They have to have time to learn both the NBA game and their teammates. In recent games Brown has given Henderson in particular some decent time, but that has to remain consistent for it to do any good. GH may wind up being an excellent guard, a complete wash, or fall somewhere else along the spectrum, but without steady 6-7 minute shifts at least every other game or so he’s not going to get a fair chance to actually develop. For a late first round or second round pick it’s no big deal because the investment isn’t as important and the expectations aren’t that high. But for a pick like Felton that showed great promise in college to be underused like this is unfair to the kid himself and a waste of potential. One of the biggest problems this team has at present is the question mark regarding what we do with Raymond Felton after the season ends. Augustin and Henderson (and to a much lesser extent Acie Law) are possible answers to that question. At the very least they could expand our options. Felton has been pretty dazzling in the past couple of games, but in his professional career to date he’s also shown himself to be pretty erratic and prone to making rash or ill-conceived decisions. He’s not providing us with a definitive answer with his own play. After the Philly game Felton also told the media that as “the leader” of the team he felt it was his responsibility to take charge in the closing seconds. As thrilled as I am with his recent improvements, it’s immature comments like that that keep me nervous. That statement coming from Wallace or Jax would have been welcome. Coming from a point guard with a bad habit of trying to drive the lane against opponents that are much bigger and quicker than he is instead of passing to a stronger option it’s just plain silly. A month ago I would have forgiven it because nobody else was stepping up, but both Wallace and Jackson are killing themselves for the club right now. Nine times out of ten Felton should be at BEST our third option at crunch time.

Augustin showed flashes of brilliance at both the point and the shooting guard positions last season. This year he has been in a ghastly slump. To LB’s credit, he gave Deej every chance to work through the situation and even on his best nights this season, Augustin just hasn’t looked like his old self. We can’t wait forever. There is literally a crowd of players at his position that are begging for the chance to steal his spot. At some point they deserve their turn to prove themselves. For DJ it’s sink or swim time. He seems like a hell of a guy and before the season got started I actually felt he had a chance to really bloom this year into a potential Sixth Man Award winner. He reminded me so much of Del Curry with his ability to get open and executed some gorgeous catch-and-shoot 3 pointers last year. The first thing to look for in a quick-release shooter is how they position their shoulders. Last season DJ instinctively had his shoulders square to the basket perfectly before the ball ever got to him. If you watch him this season, he has to turn his upper torso toward the hoop AFTER he catches the ball. It’s killing him and caused just enough hesitation that he’s now to the point where he’s giving up more open shots than he’s taking. No matter how you slice it, he’s hurting the entire team right now whenever he’s on the court because he isn’t forcing the defense to respect him as an outside threat.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 6, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Correction

I meant to type, “for a pick like HENDERSON” and typed Felton by mistake. Sorry!

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 6, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Thoughtful comments our day

But I have to take exception with one thing you said.

You called Felts immature for speaking about himself as a leader. I just don’t see any hubris in Felton’s comments. Every team in the league should want their starting pg to view himself as a leader. Felton’s desire and will to win are unquestioned. His decision making has been week, he definitely has flaws to his game, but he is a leader on the team. That’s not a question.

Jax has been w/ the team for maybe a month now and you’re already calling him a leader? Isn’t he mockingly referred to as Capn’ by many Golden State fans? I’m not criticizing Jax, I like having him on the team, but I don’t think its fair to view him as a leader and not Felton.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to clear a couple of things up...

I didn’t refer to Jackson as a leader. I said I would welcome such a comment from either him or Wallace. This is because they have each shown a leadership role with the level of their commitment each game. It makes more sense coming from them than from Raymond Felton. I don’t see hubris in Felton’s comments. I see immaturity. Big difference and here is where I drew my conclusion from:

During a game that the Cats were losing rather badly LB called a timeout and railed hard at the team. After the timeout, Felton went nuts on the court. He started driving the lane and going one on one against some mighty big and beefy opposition. He didn’t score much, but he spent a lot of time in the lane and more than a little on his backside watching his shots carom off the rim. After the game, Stephanie Reddy (sp?) spoke with him and asked him what LB said during the timeout. Felton told her that coach basically said, “somebody has got to step up and make an effort out there.” He said he didn’t see anyone else willing to do it so he took it on himself. This was very early in the season and before Jackson’s name was even being mentioned as a possible trade to Charlotte. From that point on Felton started playing like that every night and it has taken weeks to get him playing like (as David Arnott refers to him) “Good Felton” again. It’s one thing to take coache’s word to heart and give your all. It’s another thing entirely to assume the role of team leader when there are several better qualified candidates of greater talent and experience that are obviously stepping into the role.

Your mileage may vary and that’s fine. I just wanted to elaborate a bit more as to what motivated my comment.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 6, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcoming a comment like that from Jax is the same as an endorsement.

You’re pointing to what has historically been the key problem for the Bobcats. There’s been no one to step up and lead the team on offense. I’m not blaming Felton for at least taking the shots that no one else will take.

He’s not the guy you want taking the most shots of course, but he’s a leader plain and simple.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

No real argument here from me

It is indeed one of the historical problems for the Cats. Even Okafor – and I’ll go so far as to say he (along with Wallace) was the best this team had last season – wasn’t known for his “carpe diem” attitude on offense. (I can already hear the keyboards clicking away from several people because I DARED to make that comment but sometimes the truth hurts.)

If you’ll recall (or check the archive) I actually defended Raymond for his willingness to take the lead earlier this season specifically because nobody else was making that effort.

But the situation has changed since then. The arrival of Jax has had a transformative effect on our offense. It opened the floor, forced our defense to hesitate before resorting to double-teams, and has more teams playing modified zones against us instead of man-to-man coverage. Those players that have chosen to take advantage of these things have made steady improvements over their offensive numbers since his arrival. Wallace is the obvious beneficiary here.
But when Diaw has been active on the court instead of parking himself at the top of the key, he’s had some remarkable games as well. I won’t speculate on whether Diaw’s “nowyouseeit nowyoudon’t” offense is because of injury or sloth, but on the night’s he’s been there to play hard instead of just punch the clock he’s been very successful. What some have referred to as Nazr’s “fountain of youth” has been almost exclusively due to Jackson’s presence. Nazr suddenly has more open shots and less opponents boxing him out. This has also given him room for more activity on the offensive boards for tap-in chances. He doesn’t have the deftest touch on that level, but he’s able to get in there and bang those boards.

Based on all these things I would indeed welcome it if Jackson were to publicly say he wanted to take on a leadership role.

Nice dialogue here and1droid, as usual. Thanks!

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 6, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey I'm not arguing that Jax hasn't been welcome help for the Bobs

Just wanted to make the point that in spite of his flaws, Raymond is a leader on this team. He’s earned it.

With time Jax can develop into a team leader as well. As long as he doesn’t pull the disgruntled act he’s a great guy to have on the team.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

"As usual..."

LOL.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

If he's not the guy you want taking the shots...

Then when he takes the shots…he’s being a terrible leader.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Please, man.

Chill on the Henderson=PG talk. He’s never was, isn’t, and never will be.

Oh, and in addition to Felton’s penchant to use ill-conceived strategy in endgame situations, he usually can’t execute, either. He used 27 possessions in game-winning or -tying situations last year, and he took 24 shots! The POINT. GUARD. shot 89% of the time. And he hit seven of those shots. That’s 29%.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree 100%!!!

People are just clinging onto DJ because for some reason they don’t like Felton… The only guy on this team with real grit and determination. The more Henderson catches on, the more minutes he’ll get. People screaming about this after only 15 games is ridiculous.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

'grit' and 'determination'

They seem to be those NBA buzz words when you can’t find any other reason to compliment a player.

Felton’s been good recently, but lets not forget it was ‘grit and determination’ that were the selling points for Tyson Chandler over Emeka Okafor.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

So let me get this right

If you Felton/Brown haters could have it your way… You’d fire Larry Brown, start Augustine and give Henderson 30 minutes per game, regardless of how he plays. Good luck with that. I’ll stick with the hall-of-fame coach that has rebuilt this team and put us in a better position than ever in our existence to make the playoffs… despite not having a Superstar!

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you're overshooting the point some of us have been making.

I don’t have any issues with LB generally. But the point we were making is that it’s not worth playing your starters 35-42 minutes a game this early in the season, especially when you have seemingly solid, young talent waiting for live NBA action to help develop their games. I think what I and others have argued is that we’d like to see Larry Brown use better rotation management, giving guys consistent playing time that they can count on, all while making sure we’re not burning out our starters. Because winning a close game against Philly in December, shouldn’t be worth Game 3 in the first round playoffs, because that’s exactly when Wallace and Jackson’s legs will start to go.

So I think the main point is that I’d like to see some better, more consistent doling of minutes by LB. There has to a balance between playing your vets in winning combos and using young, energetic talent to spell them. And thusfar I haven’t seen LB making good choices.

Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.

by Aisander D on Dec 6, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Give him some time... It's only been 15 games

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought he was a legendary Hall-of-Famer.

I’m no doctor, but I see that it’s been about 2200 for Wise Man Brown.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Considering the week we have coming up...

I think winning against Philly was very important.

Sure I want to see Henderson get more minutes, but he doesn’t need a ton more minutes. He’s seeing some PT. I think 15 per game is about what he needs right now.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't 'hate' Felton, or Larry Brown for that reason.

But why the hell Augustin is riding the pine while Flip Murray plays like hot garbage is beyond me.

Furthermore, what’s the point of starting Felton every single game when there’s a snowball’s chance in hell he stick around for 2010-2011? We’re going to lose him to a team like the Knicks, Grizzlies or Nets who have money to burn and are willing to pay him what he wants. We’re on pace to enter 2010-2011 with a starting PG in D.J Augustin who’s getting no playing time now.

As for Henderson, he has per 36 ratings of:
13.7 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.08 apg, 1.08 spg and 1.08 bpg.

I’d love for him to get more minutes.

Fact is, Brown has ‘rebuilt’ this team, but we’re on pace for an identical record as last season. Which was a 2 game improvement over Bernie Bickerstaff’s last season as coach while adding over $91 million in payroll over the next 5 seasons.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

this, This, THIS!

A million times over.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Augustine won't ride the pine forever

And when he gets in again… If he plays well and Flip’s play hasn’t improved, then I’m sure the minutes will start to lean towards DJ. That you would critique him this hard though after 2 games, does sound like hate to me… It’s like what I do to Jake ;)

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, Larry Brown!

His dramatic rebuilding has led to a whopping two game improvement over the franchise’s high without him. And it’s come at the cost of his ridiculous salary and the explosion of our team’s payroll to the point that there’s no financial flexibility in sight. To the point that we’re bumped up against the luxury tax despite the fact that the team might well not even make the playoffs. That is the height of managerial irresponsibility and economic inefficiency, and it reeks of an old dude who wanted to make people forget the fact that he ran a once-proud Knicks franchise into the ground no matter the cost.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Have to disagree James

Is was several million dollars in savings that sold Chandler over Okafor. That and only a slight drop off in production.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Slight drop off?

We’ll see when the Nets play the Hornets but I’ll wager Okafor doesn’t let Lopez drop 31 on him.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Lopez is turing into a find player

Okafor isn’t having a great season and was never really much of a game changer.

The Bobs aren’t any worse in terms of their record w/ or w/out Okafor. That’s all that matter right?

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It's tough to be a "game changer" when your PG never gets you the ball.

Okafor was in the NBA’s top 5 last year in FG%, yet he set a career-low in FGA/gm. Perhaps he should have run up to the top of the key and taken the ball from Felton, who led the team in shots despite the fact that he was a ridiculously inefficient scorer (as he’s always been.) If we’re not any worse, we’re also not any better, and we’re paying an older player more to produce less. So what was the point?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Ever consider that his high FG% had something to do with his limited shot selection?

Limited shots are making Felton look better. The same goes for Okafor. If he starts getting more looks he starts forcing more shots and that % goes down.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that so?

Funny, then, that his career-low in FGAs this year isn’t leading to a career-high in FG%.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course I'm not saying that it's a perfect correlation

but let him start taking a lot more shots and see what happens to his FG%

You’ll say anything to make an argument won’t you?

by and1droid on Dec 7, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

You're the one who continues to demand the last word.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Paying an older player?

Tyson Chandler DOB: October 2, 1982
Emeka Okafor DOB: September 28, 1982

Okafor is actually four days older than Chandler.

by Stevarino on Dec 7, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Apologies...

What I was really referring to was the collective mileage each of their bodies has racked up. Okafor’s been in the league for three fewer seasons and has played over 200 less NBA games. Even if you include Okafor’s games at UConn, it’s 102 games worth of difference; more than a season’s worth there.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

We're not getting any worse, but we're not getting any better either.

We have far superior talent on this roster from top to bottom in 2009 than in 2008.

Except for one position, center.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Uhh...nope.

Chandler’s being paid significantly more than Okafor both this year and next.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

UHH...Yeap!

Okafor saves the team money. That’s not a debate, it’s a fact!

His contract is much shorter. You know that. Why are you even arguing technicalities? The Bobs had buyers remorse w/ Meka. It’s a fact.

by and1droid on Dec 6, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

What difference does money we're not spending three years from now make?

Is that money somehow helping this team? Yeah, didn’t think so. It just further hindered our ability to sign depth before the season began, leaving us with scrapheap players like Murray and Graham playing significant minutes far too often.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

It makes a difference to the team

That’s why they did it. I’m making an objective statement about why the deal happened. That’s all, nothing more. Why do you need to argue that?

by and1droid on Dec 7, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

In the end whatever money was saved of Okafor was nullified by Stephen Jackson.

If the mid-long term plan was to acquire more talent and money over time I’m not sure why we traded Okafor in the first place.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Because they had seller's unremorse on Jackson, duh.

Only possible conclusion.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey I'm not defending the way the team has been run

I think it’s confusing myself. There’s been no consistent plan on how the Bobs spend money. I was just pointing out the objective reason that the Chandler trade was made. that’s all guys. Settle down.

by and1droid on Dec 7, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't think I was getting worked up enough that I needed to 'settle'

It was more a musing about the Okafor trade in general than a direct rebuttal of what you said.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 7, 2009 7:21 AM EST up reply actions  

We're on pace for 35 wins.

That won’t make the playoffs, buddy, vet play or not.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions  

1 point...so small yet so big

8 and 11 looks and sounds so much better than 7 and 12.

Tough week ahead though…Denver, Dallas, and San Antonio. After that, a fairly easy December.

by MR. MANN on Dec 6, 2009 5:06 PM EST reply actions  

Feltons FG attempts are down and his turnovers are way down over the last few weeks he has the help that he needs now and he doesnt have to force as much now. Feltons decision making has come along way. All i am saying is agnowlege the Growth that Felton has shown He is playing within himself and it is a big part of our recent success
As far as being a Leader Ray has always Led the team through hustle and effort on the Defensive end and showing up when the game is on the line. No one else is saying it so i will Felton’s decision making is greatly improved

by Bcat2.0 on Dec 6, 2009 5:36 PM EST reply actions  

+1 million!

In Brown’s own words… “Give me 12 of Raymon, and you can have 12 of any other player, and I’ll win every time”.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll take Rajon Rondo.

We’ll hold your guys to about 10 points each on about 30% shooting, you’’ll have more turnovers than assists, and you’ll get blown out. Oh, wait, you mean that matchup’s happened? Lots and lots of times?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 6, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

No because once they both got tired or injured

Raymond would still be going at it, while Rondo would be on his back.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought we had 12 of them.

And I’m not entirely sure what tells you Rondo is a player who’d be on his back…he’s played in an average of 92 games the last three years. Felton’s managed 80.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

We are arguing a fictional scenario

That was meant to be nothing more than an analogy. I get it already… You hate Felton, and think LBs a moron for believing in him. Augustine walks on water… yada, yada, yada

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I did say those words, didn't I?

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course not, you implied them

With every extreme, closed minded opinion that you type.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

EVERYONE else is saying it.

Nobody here is denying that Felton has played well of late.
David has constantly referred to him as the “Good Felton” in his recaps and updates.
I myself in this very thread referred to his play in the past couple of games as “dazzling.”
Take a look around the site at what’s being said. Some of the most critical fans at this site have even said things about how great Felton has been of late but cautioned that a few games does not a season make nor does it mean he’s completely reversed his career habits. Point is, there isn’t a person anywhere here that is saying Felton has stunk up the court the past few games.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 6, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't deny that. But it's his long term upside that you guys overlook

The good/bad routine argument misses the point. Like all the players on this team Raymond plays some games better than others. But unlike many of the others he always gives 100%… That along with LBs teaching that he is soaking up, is what you guys overlook.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 6, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that he gives 100% every night.

It’s a sad state of affairs when that’s what you hang your hat on. We should have the entire team giving it 100% night in, night out.

Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.

by James The Aussie on Dec 6, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

This IS the pro league after all!

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 6, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't that what enabled your guys like undersized Steve Smith and Delhomme to play above their level?

That intangible quality is what Raymond has. But now it’s being honed by LB… That’s why I am so optimistic about him. And also why I never jumped on the DJ over Raymond bandwagon.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

It's called teaching Proc, he's never had it

That and a supporting cast

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

How ironic is it

There’s the term, right there. “supporting cast.”

south – are you aware that the whole “superstar with supporting cast” thing exists as part of the basketball lexicon because of Michael Jordan?

By using that term you label Raymond Felton as the face of the team. That accolade is reserved for the truly elite players such as Lebron and MJ himself. It’s saved for players of such incredible prowess that the remaining 4 players on the court are pretty much interchangable as long as the STAR is present. It’s saved for players of such necessity that the team will be hopeless if he is absent. It also relegates Wallace to the role of being a background player. If you believe that Felton is more important to the chances of this team than Gerald Wallace or Stephen Graham that’s your thing. But I think you’re pretty much in a minority of one on that score – unless you count Ray’s mom and family and I’m not 100% convinced even THEY would agree with you.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 7, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Another typo

I meant to say Stephen Jackson in the above post. No joke here – my spinal orthopedics specialist upped my pain medication last week and it’s left me a bit foggy-headed at times while I adjust to the dosage.

I know the urge to take shots at such a huge opening is almost irresistable, but please try to restrain yourselves guys. I know I’m an easy target but if you really knew the amount of meds I have to take you would be amazed I can even remember my own name.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 7, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't mean "supporting cast" the way you are referring

I meant as in having a decent player other than Wallace to play beside.

Since you brought it up though… I am still not convinced of ol’ Capt Jack. Felton actually leads him in practically every category… 3P%, FT%, FG%, steals and assists. The only reason Jack averages more points, is because he constantly takes and misses bad shots.

Wallace on the other hand, if he could consistently hit his jumpers, I think could be an all star.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 7, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

...and if your aunt had a penis...

Well, you know the rest. If you have watched this team since Jackson’s arrival and think he’s either: a. an inferior player or b. less integral to the team’s success than Felton, I think you’re pretty crazy.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

...she'd smack you in the face with it...

When Bell and Diaw showed up that also jump started the team, for most of the rest of the season. I am just being skeptical, but unless Jack starts putting up some numbers, then this seems like something that will wear off. I hope I’m wrong.

It’s odd though that you don’t criticize his inefficiencies the way you do Felton… even though he’s less inefficient.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

He's not the POINT GUARD.

He’s also not been historically among the least efficient offensive players in the league.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

What's your point

That a SHOOTING guard is allowed to have a lower shooting percentage than the point guard that you think is among the worst players to ever play the game?

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, because that's his role.

The shooting guard is supposed to take the scoring load. The point guard is supposed to distribute and set up his teammates to be in the best possible position to score. If the SG is playing inefficient basketball, the PG has plenty to do with it.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I see

It’s Felton’s fault that Jackson had a terrible game. That’s why he takes those bad shots… that one of you said he has been notorious for throughout his career.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

If your PG gets you the ball when you're open and likely to score...

It probably won’t be such a bad shot in the first place. That’s what real PGs (Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Brevin Knight) do.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yet he does it everywhere he goes

And no one else on the team does it. Your logic is right… but that’s NOT why Jack does it.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not my friend?

The only threads that haven’t devolved into name-calling and dissfests are….
Wait, they’ve ALL devolved. Start a thread about trades and the name calling starts within hours. Start a thread about Contracts – same result.

Maybe if someone actually STARTED a thread about transvestite relatives it would morph into a real discussion about basketball. We’ve tried just about everything else.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 8, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't think that was name-calling or a diss.

I was simply using a colloquial phrase meant to imply that if something about something changed, it wouldn’t be that thing. Also, I’ll note that I’m the only person to respond to your latest post.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 8, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

And I wasn't specifically calling you out

I was pointing out that the level of discussion here is going through a nasty turn of late.
It seems that no matter how innocuous a comment may be intended at its outset folks are automatically looking for a way to place negative connotations on it. As an example, we have a contest thread in which David asked people to come up with trade scenarios that would work and could be verified with a link. I’m not going to take the time to break down the percentages (because someone would doubtlessly find a way to skew the numbers in order to start another argument) but it seems to me that the vast majority of the responses have been little more than increasingly heated arguments.

I can respect the fact that some find this sort of thing entertaining. I don’t. I don’t believe in argument just for the sake of making noise. I recently made a post that did little more than give props to David for making a good song choice. It got a negative response. The person stepped back from it when I pointed it out, but to me it illustrated just how defensive everyone has gotten recently.

Again – I didn’t call you out for your comment above. I made a general statement about the level of negativity the site is presently experiencing. Yet you felt a need to defend your original comment. I’ll admit I initially jumped on the bandwagon and started making some negative comments. Once I realized I was being drawn into it, I backed off so I wasn’t contributing further to it all.

Yes, you are indeed the only person who responded. It was a legitimate response to boot. The post was written in the hope that people would put some extra thought into David’s contest. Perhaps it was just easier for some to attack other people’s ideas than it was to come up with something good as an alternative. I don’t know. But you did make the effort.

It seems since the win streak ended all hell has broken out here. I’m hoping that the team’s fortunes improve – although with the schedule this week it’s going to be rough – but I’m also hoping that things calm down a bit here as well.

by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 8, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I like that your comment about name-calling and dissing....

turned into more name calling and dissing. Love it.

Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.

by Aisander D on Dec 8, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

He's had plenty of teaching.

He’s just chosen to ignore it. His coaches have been on him about not being a gunner since day one, yet he still does it. Even with his “improvement” this year, he’s still third on the team in shots.

Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt

by MichaelProcton on Dec 7, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a good thing too, otherwise we'd have lost to Philly

Felton won the game that Jack was losing for us.

on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city

by southtunnel on Dec 8, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

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