Bobcats Lose to Mavericks in OT, 98-97
by David A. Arnott on Dec 12, 2009 11:33 PM EST
42 comments
When the Bobcats acquired Stephen Jackson, pretty much everyone guessed he would raise the team's ceiling. I think it's fair to say he raises their ceiling on a game to game basis, even if it's still an open question whether or not he'll add many more wins over the course of the season. In losing to the Mavericks 98-97, the Cats still showed they can play with anyone when Jackson is on.
By that, I mean that I sense there's more variance in the Bobcats' possible results with Jax in the lineup than there was before, but being able to beat better teams with his occasional excellent games will get washed out by his occasional inefficient stinkbombs.
They didn't shut anyone down. They contained the Mavs' stars about as well as they have other teams' stars. However, this time around, the Cats' offense kicked into gear instead of stalling out, led by -- who else? -- Gerald Wallace and S-Jax. Where, at the start of the season, we figured the formula would be to shut down the other team's offense and hope our offense was adequate, now the formula is to shut down the other team's offense, trust that our offense is adequate, and hope that they put up a better than average game.
Highlights and lowlights after the jump.
BAD
-- Team bench production. First, it's okay that Ronald Murray got a DNP-CD, though not ideal. He probably doesn't deserve it, seeing as he's pretty much the same guy he's always been, but -- all together now -- Stephen Graham stinks. Again, he seems like exactly the kind of guy you want at the end of your bench, but he has no business playing 16 minutes in an NBA game unless there's some serious garbage time. Murray sat. Gerald Henderson sat. Derrick Brown played 3 1/2 minutes. I'm at a loss. I want answers. What, exactly, concretely, does Graham do that makes him deserving of those minutes?
-- Boris, seriously. Something's wrong, isn't it? 8 points, 4 rebounds, 0 assists, and 6 turnovers. Maybe it's not a bad thing that you're producing at this level, and this is just who you are. Maybe I should have been much more grateful for the exemplary team player you were last season, when you were probably playing over your head a bit. He did play the best defense possible on Dirk Nowitzki at the end of OT. Maybe Hakeem Olajuwon blocks that shot. Maybe.
GOOD
-- Stephen Jackson shot 11-25 from the field, good for 28 points. In addition, he did an admirable defensive job on Jason Kidd. He may not look as "athletic" as Gerald or many other swingmen in the NBA, but he's got the footwork and tenacity to bother the best scorers in the league, big and small. Larry Brown should take more advantage of Crash 'n Jax's defensive flexibility.
-- Gerald Wallace scored 23 points and pulled down 16 rebounds. He wasn't quite as effective on the boards in the fourth quarter and OT as he usually is, but that total contribution is still awesome. Um, Larry? Are you sure you want to be running your best player for 50 minutes in a single game?
-- Tyson Chandler stayed out of foul trouble and we saw some good results, including 11 points and a few clutch rebounds late in the game Unfortunately, he didn't rebound nearly as much as he should the rest of the time, but we're taking baby steps here, people.
-- At what point can we feel confident that Raymond Felton Gets It? I've mentioned that he should be taking fewer shots, because that indicates he's doing Point Guard things instead of following the misguided notion that he's a Go-To Scorer. However, even though he took the second most shots of any Bobcat in this game (8-16, second most behind Jackson), that seemed a function of going through Plans A, B, C, and D before resorting to that Plan E, and I'm okay with that. This was certainly Good Felton, doing Point Guard things. It's a textbook case of eschewing the things that show up in the standard box score and facilitating the offense instead because it makes the team better. He wasn't much good at those box score things, anyway, so now that he's only taking the best scoring opportunities, his rate stats are all looking much better.
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I hear when the numbers don't look good, you use +/- to make your case.
Does it work the other way around? Felton had a fine game, but boy, -12? When that scrub DJ Augustin was +12? And even Stevie Graham himself managed +6? Geez. I guess you guys were right. The team does look different with Felton on the floor.
Jason Kidd ran another opposing PG clinic on how a 1 helps his team win by facilitating for his teammates, completely shutting down Felton’s new-found elite steal production ability.
Diaw had a Chandler-esque game on a night where Chandler willed himself to semi-respectability.
And dear god, the team rebounding. Part of why Gerald’s been so ridiculous in the department is because the rest of the team is so awful. Dampier and Marion, 15+ each? Ugh.
Also, no matter whose fault it is, the much-vaunted ball movement and new-look offense has looked disjointed at best the last two nights. 28 assists on 66 made shots (42%) ain’t gonna cut it.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 13, 2009 12:25 AM EST reply actions
OMG you're totally right
15mins of playing time and you make 1 out of 4 shots? 0 ft%, 1 blocked attempt, 1 steal, 1 assist, 1 rebound, and 3 personal fouls? Oh yeah, the team does look different with DJ on the floor!!!
C'mon now Procton... it was only one game.
He’ll need at least 4 more before we decide he’s a superstar.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 13, 2009 2:44 AM EST up reply actions
Steven Graham was obviously better than Gerald Wallace(+4) and Stephen Jackson(-4).
Raymond clearly outplayed Kidd and if it was raymond with Kidds numbers, you would be trashing him. Even with Kidds 6 steals, he still only had one more assist than Felton.
Raymond Felton-20 pts, 8 ast, 4 reb, 1 stl, 1 blk, 50%FG, 100%FT, 50%3pt, 2 TO
Jason Kidd-5 pts, 9 ast, 3 reb, 6 stl, 1 blk, 17%FG, 100%FT, 20%3pt, 2 TO
Felton +15 pts, -1 ast, +1reb, -5 stl, +33%FG, +30%3pt
Here you go again instigating. No one else said anything about the Raymond/DJ argument. You brought it up. Must there be the same argument every day? Why dont we agree they are both badasses. Augustins numbers as a starter last year were slightly below elite. He just needs his confidence back. No telling how long its gonna take. As of now, Felton is playing damn good ball. You know it. Everyone knows it. He, Wallace, and Jackson are putting on a show for us and you have to appreciate that.
Felton didn't outplay Kidd at all.
And all I did was point out the ridiculousness of using +/- as an argument in and of itself, as has been the cause du jour of the last few games.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 13, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
According to your logic from last week
Raymond’s steals were irrelevant since his job as a point guard is to distribute the ball. So takeaway Kidd’s 6 steals and consider his 17%FG, and he’s not looking that great. Of course you’d probably takeaway Felton’s points too to because its, well you know, “Raymond Felton” ugh. So all that counts is his 8 assists vs Kidd’s 9… not bad against a 9 time all-star.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Sadly, I'll agree with Procto on this one
With 6 steals and 9 assists I don’t think you can say he was out played.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
I know you guys like to Greco-Roman wrestle over the DJ Vs. Felton thing....
but I think we can all agree that Stephen Graham is hot doodoo butter. And should not be playing. In the NBA. Like maybe he could get the minutes Gerald Henderson is currently playing, maybe.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
I just had to join and comment after reading this:
I mean that I sense there’s more variance in the Bobcats’ possible results with Jax in the lineup than there was before, but being able to beat better teams with his occasional excellent games will get washed out by his occasional inefficient stinkbombs.
Stack Jack is shooting 39% on 16.5 FGA per game with a 1:1 AST to TO ratio since coming to the Bobcats. That doesn’t sound like “occasional” inefficiency to me. Sounds like Stack Jack being his usual inefficient self. I mean, you seem to talk about tonight like he played a great game, but if he could shoot better than 40% on 22 field goal attempts, there’s a good chance the ‘Cats actually pull it out. As a Warrior fan who truly, truly sympathizes with your terrible ownership, if the ’Cats don’t flip Jackson to a contender before the trade deadline, they will regret it.
Don't worry about me Thurgood, I'll be fine. The robbery is what's important now.
Jax’s eFG% over the past few years isn’t quite what Raja Bell’s was over the same time period, but he simply does more on offense than Raja ever did (see PER numbers), and at this point, Jackson’s probably the better defender. When Jax is streaking positively, we’re going to be pretty good, but you’re right that his general scoring inefficiency cuts into his overall value. I’m trying to describe why it feels like the team is so much better at times with Jax aboard and yet why the most sober rational analysis of their production probably shows them ending up only a few games better than they were before.
by David A. Arnott on Dec 13, 2009 8:13 AM EST up reply actions
Why is it so hard for people to understand?
Gerald Wallace transforms from good player to potential all-star
Raymond Felton transforms from mediocre point guard, to a very good one.
Both these things happen after the Stephen Jackson trade.
Looking at Jackson’s numbers in isolation is pointless, and they look condemning. However, for me, this is the difference between analyzing a team when you watch every game (like most of us do) and only looking at stats and boxscores (which you likely do as a Warriors’ fan the guy).
I understand that there’s this inherent need from Warriors’ fans to continue to mark Stephen Jackson as terrible because it satiates that Golden State essentially got nothing in return for him. However, as a Bobcat fan I see a team who has a legitimate shot of beating every team, any night. Prior to getting Jackson you could pretty much pencil the Cats wins and losses in every day.
Jackson is making the players around him better when he’s on the court. He came to the team when we were 3-7 (.333 win %) since he’s arrived we’ve gone 6-8 (0.428 win %) that’s a marked improvement, regardless of what Jax’s individual stats say.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 13, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Please understand something
I’m not saying these things because I’m trying to justify the Jackson trade. I was in the camp that was happy to trade him for ANYTHING, and in order to shed his ludicrous salary, open up playing time for Steph Curry and Anthony Morrow, and to remove a cancer from the team. Why Raja Bell decided to not have his surgery for one worthless franchise but have it for another is something I don’t understand, but Vlad Rad has actually played some decent minutes since coming over, as he fits the system very well. So I’m very pleased with the trade, not for what we got back, but for what we got rid of.
True, I don’t watch all the Bobcats games. I can’t. It’s not like they’re being broadcasted locally here in CA. I guess when you were as awful offensively as the Bobcats were (averaging the fewest points in the league at the time of the trade, no?) anything is an improvement. And I’m really not trying to tear the team down, they do seem to be playing better with Jackson. But do you really think they can beat any team on any night? That seems like a gross overstatement. I understand that compared to where the team was at, this is great, but Jackson will only take you from terrible to mediocre. He does not make the team good. Thinking otherwise is homer delusion.
And for the record, I freaking LOVE Gerald Wallace’s game and think has been an All-Star caliber player, he just couldn’t get any play because, well, he was on the Bobcats. I understand. Baron Davis got the shaft a few years back just because he was on the Dubs.
Don't worry about me Thurgood, I'll be fine. The robbery is what's important now.
All I'm saying
Is that yes, you will be very happy that Jackson makes you a .500 team, but when you want to take a step beyond that, the fact that he shoots too much while making too few, while turning the ball over at a pretty high rate will start to grate on you.
Don't worry about me Thurgood, I'll be fine. The robbery is what's important now.
And that's why many of us
welcomed the trade for Jackson but also wanted him to be traded again before too long. The Bobcats have a terrible cap situation for the next couple of years and a team that lacked any kind of scoring punch. Jackson has helped fill that need and was probably about the most talented player the Bobcats could get without giving up Gerald Wallace, Augustin or Henderson.
Jax shouldn’t be in the Bobcats’ long term plans, but he helps in the short term. Hopefully, the Cats can send him on his way in a year or so before he wears out his welcome.
So you are saying guys play better
When they more talent around them? That shouldn’t be hard to understand. Now imagine how’d they play if we had a Superstar.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
Haha
That’s a common lament among us bottom-dwelling teams. “Just imagine how good we could be if we had a Bosh, or an Amare.” Truth is, we are the Warriors and the Bobcats because we don’t have one of those players.
Don't worry about me Thurgood, I'll be fine. The robbery is what's important now.
That's what Idon't like about the NBA
Get lucky with a draft pick and with a little building, your future is bright.
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
heartbreak
this one was a rough loss. Still winless against the Mavs—the only team we’ve never beat.
A few observations
Y’all aren’t going to be throwing much love in my direction after this one.
I seem to have watched a different game than you guys did although it had the same broadcast crew and teams on the court.
1. Take a team on the road and run them to death against one of the strongest teams in the league. Watch them fight back heroically from an expected 20+ point drubbing and detontate a scoring and defensive bomb only to falter in exhaustion and end the game with a crushing loss.
2. The very next day, take them on the road again and run them to death against an even stronger and more well-balanced team on less than 24 hours rest.
I submit for your approval the statement that the teams in this league today or any other year that would perform well under that kind of pressure are uncommon. Now remember this…
3. Do it with a team comprised largely of castoffs, nobodys, and overpaid underachievers – a team so obviously talentless that critics had kinder things to say about the Bad News Bears than they did about your squad.
All the finger pointing, stat spinning, and hand wringing won’t change what happened tonight. The Charlotte Bobcats took a team they have never beaten to overtime and a very large city deep in the heart of Texas is feeling damned lucky tonight that they came out of it with a W.
If the Cats play to this level on a regular basis (and in some form or another they’ve been coming mighty close to it almost every game lately) they are going to demolish most of the teams in the Eastern Conference. We don’t need to trot out the “any given team on any given night” cliche and pray it comes for us every night. They aren’t perfect. They still have holes to fill, nightmare contracts to endure, and several players that are like Chinese Water Torture to watch on the court. But not only are they better than anyone thought they’d be, they are better than they have any RIGHT to be.
As it stands right now this team of misfit losers that everyone wrote off is a solid middle-of-the-pack basketball team that opponents take for granted at their own peril. If we manage to add an even slightly better than average PF to the squad we’re not only going to make the playoffs, we’re going to do some damage when we get there.
The areas that need to be changed are glaringly obvious and we repeat them here like mantras night after night. Until some of these changes are implemented the team runs the risk of breaking apart because of injury and exhaustion to one or more of the 3 men that are carrying the team on their backs and that’s scary as hell. Until we alter the squad or face the consequences of playing starters 40+ minutes every damned game though, this is the best the Charlotte Bobcats have ever looked or competed in the NBA.
No doubt about it, this was a heartbreaking loss. But when you take into consideration the first 2 points I made at the start of this article, there is a lot more to be proud about than there is to be heartbroken over. Tonight was the last game against truly powerful competition for several weeks. Now we have a nice string of games against the likes of the Nicks and the Bucks. If we play to the level we have this week, we’re going to rack up a batch of strong wins between now and New Year’s Eve. During that time our plans for whatever trade we’re to wind up making are going to get clearer and the existing squad should be able to continue to build confidence and chemistry.
None of what I’m saying makes the issues go away. The Chandler problem isn’t going to vanish. Diaw and Graham aren’t suddenly going to morph into NBA powerhouses. Our bench isn’t going to suddenly grow depth. The only thing that has a slight chance of changing is the number of minutes some of our underused players see. Sooner or later Brown is going to have no choice but to deal with the DJ situation and our rookies have a somewhat better chance of building minutes against the comparatively weaker competition we’ll be facing over the next few weeks. I’m not holding my breath waiting for it, but the logjam has to break at some point.
Having said that and also while acknowledging that I may be the minority of one here, I’m enjoying watching this team right now more than I ever have in the past and I’m deeply optimistic as I look to where we’ll be when the ball drops to begin 2010. This team has let us all down before and they may just crush my spirits again and I’ll be posting in early January with the admission that we’re screwed for the year, but right now things are looking pretty good from my view of the show.
Oh yeah, and in case anyone missed it, Tuesday night’s game features a $10 ticket special with $3 beers on sale. C’mon down to the Cable Box and yell, scream, burp, and pee for a night!
Given your first two points, and looking at Gerald Wallace's minutes played this season.....
I’m feeling pretty close to predicting that his entire body just folds in on itself sometime between games 68-75 later this season.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
probably earlier than that
Both Jax and Wallace are being run into the ground while we have Henderson, Dj, Law, and Brown sitting on the bench. LB is horrible at roster management.
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
Yeah, have to be a bit worried what the Bobcats will look like
when the injuries start hitting. I don’t want to know what this team would look like with Crash and Jax sitting out because of injuries, but at this rate, it’s a good possibility.
Yeah, but we're sure doing good in the "trustable players" category.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 13, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Please don't take this the wrong way
But your comments are as long as the articles! The first thing I learned about non-creative writing in college was that it’s almost always better to keep things brief and to the point… otherwise you lose your reader.
But then again, maybe it’s just me
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
no one cares
I think his comments are well thought out and insightful
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
I do too
I just rarely have time to read that insight
on behalf of tha dirty south: soul food, carolina blue, southern hospitality, and tha queen city
And I mean this as explanatory, not negative
The first thing one learns about writing in general is how to discern what is to be written before taking pen in hand. Very quickly thereafter, one learns through using the structural analysis process how to discern the goals an author has when constructing a written project.
Many of my posts are indeed long. While others may choose to limit their opinions to “Chandler sucks and so does anyone who disagrees,” I opt to provide reason to back that opinion. I also tend to provide humorous and anecdotal remarks while doing so. I disagree with the maxim of writing to the lowest common denominator. I believe the reader can decide whether or not to invest the time involved. I don’t write for everyone, but instead write what I hope is an informative and entertaining mini-article that will be more enjoyable than the standard bitchfest. Finally, I attempt to make these identifiable by repetitive use of titles, such as my “a few observations” comments after each game. The ultimate goal is to provide people that want a little more discussion about the game with what they desire. Not everyone sticks around for the “post game show,” but enough do that the networks continue to produce them. If David, or the majority of the gang here wants me to stop them, I have no problem with doing so.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 14, 2009 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
No means no!
Keep it going Ourdaywillcome.
I think your comments and analysis are great.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Dec 14, 2009 7:24 AM EST up reply actions
Probably.
Your prerogative not to read.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Boris Diaw
Diaw has no doubt been playing poorly. Hopefully this a slump and not just a leveling out from his above average numbers of last year.
I would like to see Diaw playing from the post more often. He spends too much time spotted up behind the 3 point line, and not enough time backing down defenders or flashing in the high post position: Free throw line and the lane. The points Boris scored last night in the 4th quarter were scored when he was catching the ball in the high post and busting up that sagging man/almost zone defense DAL was playing.
The POR vs. CLE game Friday night
Made me really wish the ’Cats had just resigned Juwan Howard! Man they could use him!
Funny, I said the same thing
But if we had resigned him, wouldn’t we see even less of Derrick Brown?
Lemonade was a popular drink and it still is.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Dec 13, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Have you ever been on the road and had this happen...
You’re in traffic and the dude in front of you is going to make a left turn. Every few seconds his brake lights go out and you thing he’s going to go for it, but then they flash on again. You see openings in the oncoming traffic that a turtle on crutches could get through and yet the guy starts forward only to slap those brakes again.
It makes you mad enough to want to get out of your own car and THROW the schmuck – car and all – down that road.
When I’ve gone to see the Bobcats this season it’s the one image that keeps flashing in my mind whenever I focus on Boris Diaw. He plants himself five feet behind the side of the free throw line as the ball is being passed around on offense. He picks up his foot like he’s about to cut down the open lane toward the rack. Then the friggin’ brake lights come on and he stands there some more. It’s maddening. The first game, Felton would look to pass and then wind up driving the opposite lane himself. There was no Jackson on the squad. At the most recent game, Felton would look to pass just like before. A couple of times he dished it off to Boris who pumped up a jumper that could have been a basket with foul had he just commited to the lane. The rest of the time, Felton would find Jackson who would do his thing. The difference wasn’t just that Jax was there as an option. The real difference was that Jackson was ALWAYS IN MOTION. Movement draws your attention – it makes your eyes track to it.
If you’ve ever taken the time to watch a live soccer game you know what a throw-in is. If you’ve ever been a coach you know that the lion’s share of your job is explaining in very simple terms what appears to be a very complex maneuver. You also know that no matter how simple you make it, some of your players are going to thing you’re showing them quantum physics. During a throw in, 1 player stands out of bounds and THROWS THE BALL IN to play. Duh! Eight of the other nine active players on your squad have only one job – be an open target for the throw in. (in case even one of you cares, the ninth player stands slighty in the defensive end between the goal and the site of the throw-in in case the ball is intercepted.) Without fail – even at the international level – several players will stand around watching the person on the sidelines as if Jessica Alba was doing a striptease. The ball always goes to the player in motion trying to be an open target. It’s as much a fact of life as stating that men will watch Jessica Alba doing a striptease.
THE BALL ALWAYS GOES TO THE PLAYER IN MOTION.
If someone would kindly write that one sentence on Diaw’s locker, his shaving mirror, and the ceiling over his bed I would be forever grateful.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 13, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Have you SEEN his post game?
The guy doesn’t back down defenders because he’s too weak to do it.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 13, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Is he too weak to cut the passing lanes?
I don’t know how to explain it. As you said, he hasn’t the strength to play the low post or back defenders down from the high post. His lateral movement might as well belong to the Invisible Man, and he is the least active player at the offensive end. Presumably you don’t get into the NBA without having some game. Where exactly does he keep his? Did he lend it to Wallace for the season?
Actually that explains a lot. Wallace took Diaw and Augustin’s game. That’s why defending him is like trying to cover 3 men at once.
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 13, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
it may be time to look at the options for Diaw
this team needs some consistency to surround Wallace/Jackson and the new addition to the “good” list Felton
--Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
--Someone should slap Larry Brown and bring him back to reality..
David you said Felton " wasnt so good at those box score things" Thats funny cause hes killing it for my fantasy team 20 8 4 a steal a block and 2 threes yeah those stats suck
One game defines a skillset.
You got it!
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Dec 14, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
“(Jackson) is from Texas. He plays well in this state. Believe me, I know, I coached and worked with him. When he gets near home, the ball goes in the basket. He’s just a major impact player,” Carlisle said.
The Charles Barkley 2009/10 Ancestors Count: 3 Grandmothers , 0 Mother Alltime: Reg. 26-0 Playoffs 7-0
"There were arms coming from everywhere, and I knew they weren’t going for the ball," Miller said. "I was just trying to get [the shot] up before they called some crap like ‘on the ground.’ "
"What do you want me to do?" Wright asked. "Do you want me to Derek Fisher him?"
"Give them some fucking credit, i mean for real." Jackson said.
"I just fell on my face for no reason," Bryant deadpanned. "I'm a klutz."
"Fucking right i'm preachin' it!" Carlisle replied.
"Rough life, isn't it. It's tough all over, isn't it." Smith chuckled.
Sheed for $30k: "They've got to know that he's a [darn] flopper. That's all Turkododo do."
Mutombo, Ewing and Yao at the restaurant...
MUTOMBO: "The chicken is the bomb."
EWING: [Rubbing belly] "I gotta go work out tonight. I'm full. You got a treadmill for me?"
YAO: " Leave your car keys here and run home. I'll give you the keys tomorrow."
Hell James....
His signature is even longer than some of my posts!
by Ourdaywillcome on Dec 15, 2009 12:04 AM EST reply actions
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