Have the Bobcats Made Progress in the Larry Brown Era?
by David A. Arnott on Nov 17, 2009 5:19 PM EST
53 comments
Idle thoughts as afternoon shifts to evening: Given that Stephen Jackson is a charismatic, transformative, baller, the Bobcats' makeup is totally altered by plugging him straight into Raja Bell's role. Sorry to take you back to high school chemistry, but it's like taking a super-basic substance and replacing it in the recipe with a super-acidic substance. Everything else is exactly the same, but that one change could alter the essential nature of the total mix.
In the end, I can't help but feel kind of good about this trade because even though I don't think it pushes the Cats into playoff contention, and it doesn't give them any further financial positives, it sure as hell makes them more exciting to watch. Did you see them run the break against Orlando? After a year and change of Larry Brown's walk-it-up spot-up-shooting offense, the slight uptick in fast-paced play was like watching doves released from their cage. Gerald Wallace is a freaking freight train, Flip Murray is an unrepentant gunner, Boris Diaw gets off on making the flashy play when a simpler one will do, Raymond Felton so desperately wants to be the hero that he'll do anything to advance that storyline, and Jackson... he's just the acidic substance we need to get our mixture bubbling a bit into a manic soup.
Do I have reservations? Absolutely! I've avoided bringing up old posts until now, but... okay, here goes... We've seen this before. It was exactly what happened with the J-Rich and Carroll trades. Don't believe me? Here are passages that I wrote in January 2009:
Cap space is not always the answer, but it certainly doesn't hurt. It's absolutely possible to build a team attractive enough for a superstar to take them to the next level, but there's gotta be cap space to sign that guy. These moves don't make the Bobcats absolute playoff contenders, and they totally screw the Cats' chances at signing a significant free agent before the summer of 2012, barring a trade that moves Diaw or Wallace for someone who expires that summer or before. By cutting off the free agent route, our future is totally tied to the draft, now.
Again, the motivation behind this is not the franchise's long term health; it's to get Larry Brown a playoff appearance before he bounces. Getting to the playoffs is fun, but it's not that much fun if it isn't a step toward getting even better.
If the team would simply stop messing around and wait out their untradeable contracts instead of trying to look smarter than they are by trading for super high risk, somewhat high reward, contracts in an ill-advised attempt to win quickly, they will have a chance to rebuild by 2011-12, even including Carroll's awful deal. They can still pull it off if they're able to move Diaw for a deal that expires after the 2010-11 season, but the Knicks are their only likely trade partners, and sitting through an Eddy Curry Era might be the only way to achieve that goal of competing in 2011-12.
Tweak some names, and both of those could apply today. Ask yourself: Are we in a better position to compete today or the future than we were on 30 October 2008? I'm not sure we are on either count.
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I agree
So long as Jax stays motivated, the Bobcats are a more interesting team to watch. IMO, they’re still not as good as they were last year with Okafor, but they are no longer burdened with an epicly awful offense, just a mediocre one now.
But the Bobcats are doomed to irrelevance until new ownership and management come in and reboot the franchise. Johnson, Jordan, Higgins and Brown seem to be setting the team back a couple years for every year they continue to run the team.
In particular, the Larry Brown era doesn’t look like progress to me. Brown made a lot of changes to remake the team in his image. Besides an exciting run the second half of last season, the results have been disappointing. Brown seems to have slipped quite a bit since his Pistons glory days.
Have the Bobcats Made Progress in the Larry Brown Era?
The answer, without a doubt, is a resounding YES. Now, before we move on, we’ve got to realize that there is still much to do with this team; there’s still much to improve on this team, and Larry Brown can and is doing that.
Of course, some of you might start pulling out your stat sheets and what not and declare areas where we haven’t improved, or areas where we might have become worse, but to me, one of the major things that Coach Brown has done to this team is make them play and function as a team. I’m talking about stuff that doesn’t show up on the stat sheet—stuff many people probably don’t care about. There were many games last year that were enjoyable to watch, and things were (and are) slowly coming together. Thees guys know how to play well with each other—-and it’s evident Chandler is attempting to adjust. Hopefully Jackson won’t have the same problem.
Granted, there’s like, what, three players left on the roster who were here before Brown took over (Nazr, Wallace, Felton, missing anyone?) and we had a record number of players play for our team last year—but it’s a typical Larry Brown move. He’s known for roster upheavals just as much as for not playing rookies.
These things take patience. We’ve hit a bit of a rut, but our first few games I thought we did decent, and even though we lost yesterday, the game was exciting to watch, and it was quite close against one of the league’s best.
Patience friends. Sadly, most of the state and many in the city aren’t patient enough.
Please.
They played as a team under Bickerstaff. Then, as in now, the team just ain’t very good.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 17, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
Of course there has been progress..... just 2 steps forward 3 steps back
Monta Ellis wants out of golden state. We could accomidate him by trading the Warriors Felton, and Diop. Do we need either one of them? NO. Monta Ellis would help the team now and is young enough to build around.
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
I think we can only pull so much blood from a stone, or take on much more money.
Bringing another player with attitude problems is welcoming a powder keg. Right now we have one potential time bomb, why welcome another?
Furthermore, how many more trades will the Warriors do with us, really? Basically we’ve sent them Brandan Wright and Vladamir Radmanovich for Boris Diaw, Stephen Jackson and Acie Law.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 17, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
well i guess the attitude could be a problem but 20ppg sounds pretty good over felton and his 36% fg %
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
Well, regardless...
He still has $55 million left on his contract.
We cant afford to do it.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 17, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
just trying to think of ways to get rid of Diop's 6+ million dollar contract not even active for games
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
I understand… but the allure for Golden State was the $5 million expiring from Raja. I don’t know if they’ll be willing to take a vastly inferior player for 1 year less of a contract.
Of course, if you told me two days ago that we could get Stephen Jackson without having to part with Boris Diaw I would have thought you were crazy.
Bets chance to dump Diop will be a deadline deal to a contender who has a big man go down, and even then it’s a tough sell.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 17, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
i still have trouble fathoming why we needed him in the first place
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
Diop that is
i never though steven jackson would come to Charlotte. Then again i never thought Okafor would get traded for a far inferior player in Chandler, and never thought J-Rich would come to Charlotte (too bad that didn’t work out)
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
I'm glad J-Rich didn't really work for us.
We got to flip him into two starters (Diaw and Jackson).
Pity we parted with Jared Dudley though. He’s looking pretty good now.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 17, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
Eh...
Dudley is fine, but his production is hardly above-average for a first-rounder.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 17, 2009 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
Because he was going to provide the post presence that pushed us over the top into the playoffs.
Just like Mohammed. Duh.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 17, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
Before the Jackson trade: No.
After the Jackson trade: Yes.
Brown is still pulling this team around from the utter ineptitude of the Sam Vincent season.
Purely on a talent basis look past the starters and at the bench. Larry Brown inherited a squad who’s top reserves were:
- Nazr Mohammad (still with team)
- Matt Carroll (averaging 1 ppg on 6 minutes with Dallas)
- Jared Dudley (9 pts in 22 mins with Phoenix)
- Earl Boykins (played 1 game for Washington)
- Derek Anderson (no longer in the NBA)
- Jeff McGinnis (no longer in the NBA)
Meanwhile, through trades and deals Larry Brown (and by extension MJ) now have:
- DJ Augustin (7.1 ppg)
- Nazr Mohammad
- Flip Murray (11.7 ppg)
- Acie Law (6.2 ppg)
What I’m getting at is that we’re deeper now.
For me, Larry’s tenure starts now. He has pieces that he should be able to mold into a playoff team. He took the 76ers to the championship in 00-01 with little more than AI, an aging Dikembe Mutumbo and a cast of career role players, so now, for the first time, I think we’ll see what he can do.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 17, 2009 7:07 PM EST reply actions
WOW
that team had 3 double figure scorers after A.I. the rest were unimpressive veterans or really young players (Mohammed, Bell). Just for fun A.I. scored 200 less pts that season than Kevin Ollie has his entire career. Also Nazr had 17.6 points per 36 minutes.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2001.html
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
Kevin Ollie does get extra points for his ghetto mustache
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
I think he's half-smiling
because he just bought an El Camino.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
lol walter hermann hs the weirdest look for a pro basketball player perhaps ever........ even better than morrision
Gerald Wallace is the best player the Bobcats will have..... EVER
Herrmann & Singletary
Walter Herrman and Sean Singletary are playing for Caja Loboral in Spain (Baskonia Vitoria).
http://www.euroleague.net/competition/teams/showteam?clubcode=BAS
Walter hasn’t played yet in 4 games. He is the oldest player on the team. Maybe he is injured? Singletary has played 2 games and scored 2 points each game.
Walter was great for the last half of the 2006/2007 season in Charlotte.
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Nov 17, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
I always liked Herrmann
I always thought he had promise. He was nba rookie of the month in february or march whenever we first got him. I never like trading him away. But what do I know, right? FABIOOOOOoooo!
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Nov 17, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Lot of Interesting Walter Herrmann videos on Youtube
Here are a couple…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cza2yIk_yU&feature=related
by Ft.Mill Bobcat on Nov 17, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the info
Yea, The team was clicking and he was nailing 3’s left and right. It seemed like he was averaging about 20 ppg for a month or so. He could replace radman and we wouldnt have lost anything in the Jackson trade.
Herrmann in Europe B-ball
Right now, he is in the first year of a four year contract (last 2 years are team option years) worth a total of about $7.5 million. That’s a lot of money for a thirty year old. We would have to buy his contract (right? I’m not sure how it works) and there’s no way we’d do that as much as I’d love them to.
by WhatAboutBob_cats on Nov 18, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
So you’re saying that through trading our young players with upside for old players with huge contracts and making draft picks that any coach would have had we’ve made the team better? Shocker. Thank goodness we have Brown around.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 17, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
No, what I'm saying is 'What use is cap room in our situation?'
Who would people suggest we spend the room on? Let me rephrase that:
“What all star free agent is going to come to Charlotte?”
I think people hold cap room in his over bloated high regard that will help us catch the great white whale, when in reality we’ve made several smart moves (Bell and Diaw, now Jackson) and several really stupid ones (Chandler, Diop). In a league where Marcin Gortat is making over $5 million per for his 4.4 ppg, Paul Millsap is getting a $28 million deal for his 9 and 4, and Elton Brand is making over $10 million for less than a double-double then I’m okay with blowing $7 million per on Stephen Jackson for his 16+ ppg.
These are cautionary tales for putting too much stock in the free agency, and I for one am relieved.
The reason we’re not already a playoff team is due to failed draft picks, not the trades we’ve made (with the exception of Okafor who I’ve talked about ad nauseum).
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 17, 2009 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
Forget a star free agent.
It would be nice to have the money to sign decent 6th-8th men in the rotation. Have you noticed our backup PF is a 2nd-round rookie who our coach admitted can’t play the position? Have you noticed our backup centers are all hot garbage? I understand your point about veteran salaries and the potential improvement (although it’s been marginal improvement at best thus far), but all it does is keep us in the low-lottery range where we can’t get good enough picks to actually help the team in the future.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 4:07 AM EST up reply actions
Not signing a big man was one of those stupid moves, I'll admit.
But it wasn’t for lack of cap room that we didn’t sign one.
I know you and I complained all Summer that we didn’t make a move while Hakim Warrick, Joe Smith and others got signed. We could have gotten these guys, but the front office didn’t make any moves.
I guess what I’m getting at is from where I sit in 2009 we have a hell of a lot more potential than we did when Larry Brown became coach. So for me, the jury will be out until I can see if he can turn this on paper potential into tangible success. Post Okafor and pre Jackson I thought there was little change, or little improvement… but I really feel Stephen Jackson could be the key to opening up our potential.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 18, 2009 7:28 AM EST up reply actions
But it WAS for lack of cap room.
We had no money to offer whatsoever outside of the MLE, and that’s not going to attract FAs here rather than another place where they have a chance to compete for a championship.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
Did Procton just suggest that paying more than the MLE is a good strategy for essentially bench players?
Yes, yes he did. I know that happens sometimes, but that shouldn’t be the team’s goal.
It should be the team's goal to acquire the pieces they need however it has to be done.
You know we’re paying a combined $12.5 million for Diop and Mohammed, right? I haven’t seen those guys starting much.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
It took alot less than the MLE to acquire Hakim Warrick, Joe Smith or Shelden Williams- all of whom could grant us depth.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 18, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
But they didn't want to come here.
We weren’t willing to do more than match the offers they got. When you’re an undesirable FA destination, you’re going to have to overpay to beat out actual competitors with a chance to win.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I agree...
I think we could have easily gotten Drew Godden or Hakim Warrick for the amount we are paying Diop and it would’ve been well worth it…they could have easily started or been a 7th man with really good production of the bench…I was really disappointed we didn’t get either one of them…
Yes, IF we had had the cap space.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
And you're putting entirely too much stock in numbers compiled over less than an eighth of the season.
Millsap and Brand both can (and likely will) clearly perform much, much better, as they’ve shown the capacity to do in the past.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 4:12 AM EST up reply actions
Millsap, yes. Especially after Carlos Boozer departs.
I have no idea what’s going on with Elton Brand. I loved him as a player but he dropped off the face of the earth heading to Philly, going from a 20 and 10 guy to an average 11 and 6.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 18, 2009 7:29 AM EST up reply actions
too much stock?
Why is it that you are using numbers compiled over less than an eighth of a season to proclaim that our entire season is already a wash but others shouldn’t use those same numbers because they are based on too short a time period?
by Ourdaywillcome on Nov 18, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Because the numbers mentioned above are divergent from career numbers established over a far greater period of time.
I’m not a doctor, but I’ve heard of something called regression to the mean. And as for this team and the lack of success I see from it, it has nothing to do with numbers. It has to do with watching the team’s largely inept play when matched up against any but the worst teams in the NBA.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Why are you guys arguing with this New Orleans Hornets fan in disguise? The guy is lightning rod for negativity and constantly puts his foot in his mouth. Yes, the Bobcats are in a better position now than last year. LB was inherited a terrible team with little cap room to manuver. I applaud him for atleast trying to work on the things this team needs improvement in instead of standing stubbornly pat like the other pro sports coach here. No, the pieces to this puzzle are not complete and yes, theres still a hole at PF but this is the NBA not 2K Sports, you cant just plug some name into this lineup and expect things to work. We cant just magically acquire money to get the so called All Stars so we have to work with what we have and stand behind the team. LB is a great veteran coach who was handed the keys to a jalopy with no money to fix it. Give the man and this team some time.
"it's a bad day to have a bad day"
That's not even remotely true.
In the 2007 season, the Bobcats had the lowest payroll in the league at about $52 million. We were one of just three teams not over the cap, with the Hawks and Grizzlies. The “terrible team” he acquired managed 32 wins with an equally terrible coach, right? So, again, what was the cost of the extra three wins? A huge increase in payroll (and likely coaching salary, although they won’t publicly disclose how much they’re paying brown), a huge decrease in cap space and future roster flexibility, and four spots in the draft. Was three wins worth all that? He’s had two years, and he’s on pace to lead us nowhere but a 10th or 12th pick again.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
You do concede though that after the Stephen Jackson trade determining our draft spot based on the pre-trade pace is a little premature?
We’ll know more tonight since they’ve had a chance to practice together and get some plays down.
The worst move Larry Brown made was trading the 1st rounder to nab Ajinca. But, I think we all know Roy Hibbert was the target and the Pacers taking him threw a wrench in the works.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 18, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
So why make the move before the draft?
All we ended up with was a crappy project who’ll never even be a rotation player and a better draft pick we’ll have to ship to Denver down the road. And who’s to say Hibbert would have been any good either? Brown doesn’t play rookies, and Hibbert probably wouldn’t have been much different. He wasn’t very good last year (although he was clearly better than Ajinca), but he at least got 15 minutes a night in 70 games. At this rate, Ajinca might hit that mark some time next season. Hell, Hibbert’s already played more minutes this season than Ajinca has in his whole career.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
We could have drafted smarter...
Should have drafted Brook Lopez at #9 and Mario Chalmers at #20
That's nothing more than revisionist history.
Lopez wouldn’t have worked next to Okafor, and Chalmers wouldn’t have even been a consideration at #20. We also should have picked Will Blalock instead of Ryan Hollins and Aaron Brooks or Rudy Fernandez or Carl Landry or Glen Davis or Marc Gasol or Ramon Sessions instead of Jared Dudley too, but not many people spend their time whining about that.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 18, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Say what?
The majority of the whining around here comes from you, Procto. Usually about how bad LB, MJ, RayRay & Sean May are. And how absolutely horrible every move made by the organization in the last two years has been (except for drafting DJ Augustin – because Brook Lopez would suck if he played for Charlotte, and drafting Gerald Henderson – because he is from Duke).
I have no reasons of liking Henderson other than his ability as a player.
Frankly, as a Duke fan, I wish he had stayed in school rather than going pro. But he brings on-the-ball defense, strong rebounding for his size, toughness, and the ability to score as a slasher, all things this team needed an injection of. Particularly with an aging SG likely on his way out the door (trade or not) who we had virtually no in-house options to replace.
Remember when the Panthers had a good offensive line? Yeah, me too.
--Darin Gantt
by MichaelProcton on Nov 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Totally agree.
I was screaming at the TV when they didn’t take Lopez with that pick!
And even if Chalmers “wouldn’t have even been a consideration at #20,” as Procto suggests, then the Cats could have traded down for Chalmers, and maybe gained a solid FA or draft pick to boot.
It’s hard to argue that this team wouldn’t be better right now if they taken Lopez and Chalmers (+ the Denver pick) instead of Augustin and Ajinca.
I was super mad as well...
I think we drafted those 2…everything would’ve have been completely different…oh well would’ve could’ve should’ve
Fair enough Procton
I forgot the deal was done before the draft, for some reason I thought it happened during the draft.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Nov 18, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
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