Bobcats Defeat Knicks 102-100 in 2OT
by David A. Arnott on Oct 30, 2009 10:17 PM EDT
28 comments
It took two overtimes, but the Bobcats outlasted the Knicks by playing great defense and waiting for timely offense. For the entire fourth quarter, there was plenty of doubt that said offense would ever develop, but the Cats ultimately prevailed, 102-100.
For three-plus quarters, the Bobcats held the Knicks in check and played up to our highest expectations. They dominated New York in the first quarter, jumping out to a 32-13 lead. But then the Cats' lack of offense and front court depth came back to bite them. Tyson Chandler fouled out with nearly 9 minutes to go in the game, forcing Boris Diaw to play center in crunch time against the Knicks' small lineup, and New York came roaring back.
It's not that the Knicks played especially well on offense during that time, but that they started scoring a little better and the Cats' offense totally went cold. Early in the game, everyone scored; no one player shouldered the load. They still weren't all that good, but they were getting to the line and utterly shutting down the Knicks' offense, giving them a big lead. In the fourth quarter, though, they slipped on both ends of the court, to the tune of a 27-13 quarter, and regulation ended with a tie.
Both overtimes were more of the same: Perfectly fine defense, sloppy offense. This is what we should have expected, in the end, but it's no less infuriating to experience it in real time if we know it's coming.
Highlights and room for improvement after the jump:
BAD
-- Gerald Wallace and Raymond Felton did not shoot well from the field, but at least they were getting free throws and rebounds. I don't know who's telling Felton he's the designated crunch time scorer, but whoever it is had better quit it. If no one has actually been designated, please make sure it's not Felton, because the dude doesn't score well during the game, let alone when no fouls get called. He scored three times in clutch overtime possessions, but he was a big reason why the offense collapsed at the end of regulation. If only he'd become infatuated with creation instead of finishing...
-- Usage and roles are an open question with this club. Why is D.J. Augustin essentially playing the two when Gerald Henderson is available? Aren't the Knicks the perfect team to play Derrick Brown at the four and Alexis Ajinca anywhere from the three through five for at least a few minutes, because of New York's lack of size? On the front end of a back to back? Against the clearly weaker team of the two opponents? Why are starters playing more than 45 minutes each in such a game?
-- Vladimir Radmanovic has to make shots to be worthwhile. It's his reason for being in the NBA, 0-4 from three doesn't cut it. 2-9 from the field doesn't cut it. Since coming to the Cats, he's been reasonably good about putting the ball on the floor, but he's not nearly good enough at it to make up for a shooting cold spell.
GOOD
-- Boris Diaw had a Boris Diaw game. 17 points, 11 rebounds, and 6 assists. If we're going to be that team no one wants to face, he has to be on his game. It's good to see him back.
-- Stephen Graham redeemed himself somewhat. He still has no business playing more than 20 minutes in an NBA game, but he was reasonably effective when on the floor tonight.
-- The defense stepped up big. To the bitter end, they were solid contesting shots and making the Knicks uncomfortable. If they have a blueprint for success, this is it: Hold even prolific, fast-paced, offenses to around 80 points per game by grinding the pace and relentlessly harassing their scorers. Hope the offense does enough to win.
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I'm not sure we were watching the same game
“I don’t know who’s telling Felton he’s the designated crunch time scorer, but whoever it is had better quit it. If no one has actually been designated, please make sure it’s not Felton, because the dude doesn’t score well during the game, let alone when no fouls get called. He scored three times in clutch overtime possessions, but he was a big reason why the offense collapsed at the end of regulation. If only he’d become infatuated with creation instead of finishing…”
I could not disagree more with you. Felton had 9 assists on 44% shooting
6 of 7 on his free throws as well
Doing some quick addition in my head but it looks like the rest of the starters went a combined 18 of 52 from the floor. Throw in the two bench players who got real minutes Vlad (2 of 9) and D.J 5 of 9) and that puts the total at 25 of 70. That’s a combined 35% from the floor. Felton is NOT the one who chucked up bad shots tonight.
The anti-Felton bias is paper thin tonight my friend. I’d like to reiterate the 9 assists. He does look for others and finds them at a decent rate. He’s no all star but he was by far Charlotte’s best player tonight. I’m happy that D.J. shot the ball well tonight. He should definitely get more shots. If D.J. tried to take Felton’s place as our starting PG, however, he’d score more points and we’d lose significantly more games.
You may argue that losing more games is o.k. now because of where we are in our “success cycle.” Whoever wants to make that argument, however, has no right to bitch about the Okafor trade.
1 — Being okay with losing more games now if it builds to a better future is not mutually exclusive with disliking the Okafor trade. I’ve argued that among the long contracts, Gerald and Emeka were easily the best ones for the team and possibly worth keeping because they produce commensurate to their salaries.
2 — From the play by play in the fourth quarter, from the time Felton came in with about 9 minutes to play:
- Raymond Felton misses a jump shot from 21 feet out.
- Raymond Felton misses a 3-point jump shot from 23 feet out.
- Raymond Felton misses a layup shot.
- Raymond Felton makes a jump shot from 18 feet out.
- Raymond Felton misses a fade away from 18 feet out.
He wasn’t alone — Augustin made the only other field goal in that period, on a tough driving layup, and both Diaw and VladRad couldn’t do anything right except win a jump ball. Face facts: Felton was a 28% three point shooter each of the past two years and had 44 eFG% over that time. Among all players in the league, only LBJ does well in the paint in last-shot scenarios, so we should probably be choosing a shooter for that role, not a penetrator. But even then, Felton comes up short: To pick one guy, Gerald Wallace shoots better from three, and he’s a better slasher, to boot.
Felton’s results in crunch time were good this game, but if you flip heads five times in a row, your odds of flipping heads on the next flip haven’t increased.
by David A. Arnott on Oct 31, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
1) I’m contending that the lose now to win later theory and displeasure with the Okafor trade are mutually exclusive for the simple fact that Okafor was not helping Charlotte win more than 35 games. The same can be said for Felton. That’s why neither deserve a long-term contract. Okafor can perform better offensively than Chandler, but Chandler gives us a chance to find something that works better than Okafor in the near future, which is similar to the D.J./Felton situation.
2) Felton didn’t have an all star performance last night, but that in no way means he wasn’t the best player. 22-8-9 on 44% shooting. No other player had a better line than that. Acknowledging Felton’s strengths and acknowledging his weaknesses are not mutually exclusive. If you’re going to call for him to not be in the game you MUST have a decent idea for who to replace him. D.J. shot the ball well but did nothing else to contribute to the win.
The coin flip analogy is misleading on two accounts.
First, you’re assuming that my statement that Felton was vital to the win last night was something more than that. He could have a bad game the next night. I’m not arguing for a long-term extension for Felton. All I’m saying is that Felton represents that best chance at winning now with Charlotte’s current roster. I doubt you would argue against that.
Second, you’re implying that Felton’s play (and ostensibly the play of all athletes) is as randomly decided as a coin flip. Did you really want to make that implication? There are some social scientist who will make that argument in sports, but I doubt that’s the argument that you’re trying to make. I personally think it’s a crazy idea, and my guess (re: hope) is that you do too.
To be clear
I’m not agreeing with your success cycle argument. I’m just saying that if you’re going to make it, make it without prejudice. The logic applies to Felton and Okafor.
I’m not going to add more to this except…
1 — I hope you see the fallacy in saying “Okafor was not helping Charlotte win more than 35 games” therefore he’s easily expendable. By that logic, on an extreme, the Lakers should have let Kobe go when they were a 40 win team because he wasn’t helping them get past that plateau by himself. Emeka wasn’t helping the team win more than 35 games by himself, but he is good enough to be a key part of a championship team.
2 — To clarify the coin flip thing: It’s not crazy in the least.Felton has an established talent/skill level. Just because he got good results this time, the ones we want, doesn’t mean he’s a good bet to get them again the next time out. In the same way, the coin’s odds haven’t changed just because you flipped five straight heads. Also, I have doubts he represents a better chance to win now than Augustin does, but that’s a separate discussion.
by David A. Arnott on Oct 31, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Well you're being a little redundant
I get the idea of what a coin flip is. But you’re essentially saying that Felton’s production is completely random. You’re going to have to do a lot of work to support that claim. It’s not a given. Repeating the statement clarifies nothing. If you’ll read, I agree that Felton is capable of poor performance. That doesn’t mean his performance is the product of random chance.
I hope you see the fallacy of comparing a regular all star, MVP, and future hall of fame player to Okafor. Do I need to say more than that? Okafor can contribute to a championship caliber team, but that in no way means that Charlotte was going anywhere with him. To be fair, Charlotte isn’t going anywhere with Felton either. Hell, even Wallace isn’t sacred. This team has a shot at the playoffs this year, and I’d love to see that happen. I’m not going to cry about seeing anyone go if it gives the team a chance to be better.
Good thing you're not the coach
We would’ve lost the game. No ones arguing Felton shoots a good %. We’re saying hes a good crunchtime shooter. I’m saying down by 2, or tied up, clock running out, I want the ball in Felton’s hands.
Augustin had three field goals in the 4th, not one.
You want Wallace to be the designated crunch score? Face Facts!
He was 0 for 6 in 4th and OT.
Felton was 4 for 9 in 4th and OT. Im not sure but isnt 4 for 9 a better % than 0 for 6?
Your reasoning is that Wallace is a better 3pt shooter? He only shoots 1% better from behind the arc. You would rather take a low% shot to win the game than hit an easy layup?
Felton has a stat that cant be measured. Its called heart. The guy is a baller and reminds me of Chauncy Billups. You guys can hate all you want but one day you will regret it. It took Chauncy Billups seven years to have the ppg Raymond had last year. It took Billups 10 years to average six assists per game which Felton has done every year except his rookie(5.6).
My few observations
In the post game interview, Felton said that Coach Brown demanded that “someone” step up and shoot the ball. Felton took it upon himself. As a result he tossed in 3 critical baskets at key points. Is he the best choice for a go-to guy? He was well on the way to his first career triple double at the half and wound up with only 2 rebounds and 2 assists in the second half. The obvious answer is no. But he and Augustin were the only Bobcats in the fourth quarter that I saw trying to take charge. Felton stepped up by default when nobody else would. I blame his teammates on the court for not answering Coach Brown’s call, not Felton.
Felton and DJ all but carried the team on their respective backs tonight.
Wallace was struggling, but as a true NBA pro should, he made his impact in other ways by drawing the defense in to him and making it count at the free throw line.
So how did the Cats blow a lead and wind up in double overtime so quickly after building to a “we can coast from here with the bench” cushion? Two words – Tyson Chandler. Tonight he continued to whine to the refs and mouth off to the opposing team while netting us a whopping 6 points before blowing up and fouling out in lightning-fast fashion. I had VERY high hopes when he came to Charlotte, but thus far the folks selling the nachos and beer in the stands are deserving more of a salary than Chandler is. When rookies and players off the bench are producing more in one game as reserves than one of the “star” starters can provide in two games, we have a problem. If I were Coach Brown, I’d sit the man for the first quarter against Cleveland and tell him he can start again when he shows the team some commitment. We aren’t expected to win in Cleveland anyway (especially after a grueling game tonight!) and the longer we let Chandler fake it on the court the more games he’s going to hurt us.
I expect a few fans to jump on me for these comments and yes, I KNOW he’s a lot better player than this, but until his game is back in NBA shape he needs to commit in practice to prove he’s learned and earned his starter spot. We’re two games into this very young season and so far he’s only provided us with a huge hole in the court where an NBA player is supposed to stand. We can’t afford to wait 10 more games for him to get it together as a starter. The schedule is too tough this early in the year and we can’t afford to dig a deeper hole in the win-loss column than the schedule will already provide for us. We need to steal one or two of these tough road games in Cleveland or Boston in order to give our injured players a fighting chance to make us contenders when they return.
DJ is turning into a real standout for the Bobcats. He delivered big at the end of last season and he’s already showing signs of continued improvement. If Coach Brown needs a player to truly step up and take charge, he may just find that in DJ within a few short weeks.
Overall, this was an obvious improvement over the nauseating debut, but there are still a lot of adjustments that need to be made. Defense wins ballgames, but only if there is something resembling an offensive output for the defense to protect. If this team continues to turn to ice at the offensive end for 10 minute stretches, we had best enjoy this win because victories will be very rare indeed.
by Ourdaywillcome on Oct 30, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions
I agree completely with your Chandler comments ourday.
Though I’m not sure it’s attitude alone that’s hurting him. He definitely needs to find a way to fit into what the team is doing on the court and so far it just hasn’t worked. I saw him trying to get the pick and role going tonight, so let’s hope it just takes a little time for everything to come together. Of course he could be a HUGE disappointment, but there’s no need to jump to that conclusion just yet.
Chandler's stat line tonight:
6 points, 8 rebs, 3/8 shooting, (team leading) +5 plus/minus, in only 18 minutes of play
Not great obviously, but not horrible for a guy who missed most of last season and nearly all of preseason and is still trying to get back into playing shape. He hurt us more by not being on the court than anything, because the worst of the run came after he fouled out.
In my view the problem came from the line up after Chandler went out. Against Boston VladRad played four minutes, but he played 36 minutes tonight – with much of it as center! I’m not sure what that was about. Why Nazr and Alexis didn’t get some of those minutes is beyond me.
No pressence in the middle hurt us
not as much as NY’s 3 point shooting but it still hurt us. That’s why I would have liked for Ajinca and Nazr to have actually gotten some minutes after Chandler fouled out.
Um...did NY bring their refs with them?
From about 5 minutes left in the 4th all the way through both overtimes, the Bobcats couldn’t get a call. I bet I counted 10 fouls that were just not called…
The game should have been over in regulation
Defintely some questionable calls.
One blatant missed call (in the OT i think) where Jeffries clearly knocked the ball out and it stayed with NY. Then the next play almost, Steve Javy missed what should have been a backcourt on Duhon. Luckily the ‘Cats didn’t complain, rather just buckled down and played defense.
Bah.
DJ produced when he was driving to the basket tonight. He hit one three and missed many that were wide open. I’m not trying to take away from his performance, but his mid to long range shooting stroke seemed to abandon him tonight. Overall though, I’m not worried about him. He really came through. Ray carried us though. I have to disagree with David for the simple reason that Ray came through when we needed someone. Everyone else was cold. I wasn’t AS disappointed with Chandler tonight, although still disappointed. And Stevie Graham played fine. He was the reason we got out to our early lead along with good clean ball movement. Overall a good showing, minus the blown 20 point lead.
Felton is a good crunch time scorer and probably the best we have!
How are you guys hating on Felton after a near triple double, playing with cramps, and 15 stitches? He is the leader of this team. Wallace couldn’t create his shot tonight in the clutch. Diaws not going to. Felton and DJ are the best we have at creating their shot and it can’t be DJ every time. There were lots of games last year that Felton scored in the clutch and won the game for us. There are too many haters on this website. How about supporting your team? Im a Duke fan by the way, so dont tell me Im biased.
Did you watch the game?
Felton took five shots and missed four of them during the last nine minutes or so of regulation. They weren’t good shots either; mostly long jumpers that Felton chucked up because he thinks he’s a shooter. He was 0-2 from three and I don’t know why he keeps shooting them because he’s below 30% for his career. Sure, he had a near triple double, but he was complete garbage in the second half. He wasn’t the sole reason it took overtime but he was a major part.
Not quite
“. They weren’t good shots either; mostly long jumpers that Felton chucked up because he thinks he’s a shooter.”
I watched the entire game, and of those shots that you and Rufus are complaining about, almost all of them came with the shot clock running out and no one else was willing to take the shot or even try to create their own shot. Plus, Felton shot a higher fg% last night than the other starters.
Of all the times to play Felton Hating — last night was NOT one of those times!
You're way off Steve
Felton is the reason the game went into overtime only so much as if not for him the Bobcats would have lost in regulation!
You're missing the entire point...
Yes, Felton had a good game. Yes, Felton made some key layups to help win the game. Yes, he probably was the best player last night. I’m not arguing with any of those points. My point was that the ’Cats should have won in regulation but in the last few minutes, Felton missed 4 of 5 shots, enabling the Knicks to come back and force overtime.
I’m done with this post, if people still don’t understand my point then oh well.
6 minutes for Henderson, 6 minutes for Brown
That confused me the most, especially after both stepped up vs. Boston and were about the only positives coming out of that game.
Cat Scratch Reader's resident optimist.
by James The Aussie on Oct 31, 2009 3:58 AM EDT reply actions
I think they both got injured....
or Larry Brown just forgot about them, despite both of them being efficient for the 6 miuntes they played. Effing LB.
Blogging at Ridiculous Upside, where my terrible writing meets people's eyes.
That's the real reason the game even got close in the end...
LB went to a 6 man rotation and let Nazr, Henderson, Brown, Ajinca, and Diop all sit on the bench. They could have contributed.
why are you obsessed with hating felton
I just don’t understand why you lumped felton in with poor shooting last night. 8-18 is not bad, it’s right at a good shooting percent.
Why didn’t you say “wallace, diaw, and vlad had poor shooting?” Clearly you’re a bit sour that felton was a huge part of the win tonight, which directly contradicts your “felton is the worst” attitude.
I was literally in disbelief that you somehow managed to rope in felton with the ‘bad’ of the game. After reading that recap, I just can’t take anything you write seriously until you prove that you’re agenda is not to derail felton.
A bit of realism
It was a sloppy game, which was to be expected considering the combatants.
All the arguing over Felton is part of the fun of being an NBA fan, but let’s take a breath and be realistic.
My opinion is that Felton is vital to the Bobcat’s hopes this season. It’s also my opinion that Felton stepped up last night because nobody else did and the dude has a huge and competitive heart. The cramp in his leg last night was MASSIVE and plainly obvious on tv. Yet he came right back on court and produced. Why? As was stated by Felton himself after the game, Coach Brown demanded that someone step up and do some shooting. Literally nobody else on the court would take charge, so Felton did it.
That isn’t something that the coach could permanently correct during the game, but you can bet the ranch that it will be addressed VERY quickly. What’s my point? This:
Raymond Felton earns his paycheck. He isn’t going to be the star of this team, but he’s going to remain a vital part of any progress we make this season. As players return from injury the look of the team is going to change. This was just one night and instead of hating on Felton or praising him as the second coming, we should all just be mighty grateful that on a night that could have been a disaster, he was a big part of salvaging a win.
Tyson Chandler is also going to be a huge part of any successes the Bobcats have this season, but thus far he’s done little apart from stink up the court. I think it’s in the team’s best interests to give Chandler a lot fewer minutes until he’s up to the NBA pace. Bench him and work him to death in practice. Don’t sit him the entire game, because we all know that game minutes are essential to the process, but until he’s fully ready and able to produce, we’re better served by using someone else. When he’s ready to play 38 minutes, the coach will know it.
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